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Buying a car without a title

Started by Bill Balkie 24172, March 08, 2011, 09:19:38 AM

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Bill Refakis

last comment,you guys must realize that you can take a set of #'s from a build sheet,spend 150.00 get papers to it,insure and register it in may states,and BINGO!! you now have a valuable collector car!

with late models,you can do none of these things,with these "collector cars" anything and everything goes!

get the history,its part of the fun anyway!

Art Woody

Here is some history on my '53 coupe I bought in GA with a bill of sale. Elvis gave this new car to this poor little girl selling lemonade at her stand in MS. Her parents then sold the car to Hank Sr. He died in the back seat. Then Hank Jr. took it to Moultrie, GA where I bought it. I have owned it for 7 yrs. TN has a title law, it's the other states without TITLE LAWS that make interesting stories. Also my formerly untitled coupe has the original warranty/purchasers card intact under the hood, oddly enough, Elvis must have bought it in someone elses name. I will give up my guns and my Cadiilacs when they pry my cold dead fingers away from them. Art Woody

Mike Simmons 938

My  experience 2-3 years ago with the NY-CA  connection was interesting. CA would not accept the signed registration and bill of sale from  NY on a pre-war car with no title. They strongly suggested that I should ask the seller to get another bill of sale (notarized) from whoever sold it to HIM, stating that there were no outstanding liens on the car. In other words, they really didn't care if the car was  stolen, just that any banks involved were protected. They finally settled, with lots of grumbling, for a notarized bill of sale stating no liens existed , from the gent who sold it to me.
As our country's recent history shows- we really take care of our friendly bankers.  Mike Simmons 938

TJ Hopland

After reading all of this it really makes you wonder why the feds have not got involved in this process.   Some of us that are trying to follow the rules our state has have to jump through so many hoops that often we just give up while other states it sounds like if you can fill out one form and your check to the state doesn't bounce you get a new title.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Greg McDonnell

#24
In response to the original poster:  I am a resident of Alabama and am fortunate to have as a friend, our former Mobile County License Commissioner.  I called her about this very topic not long ago because my '66 Eldorado is for sale on the Internet (not Ebay).  An interested party contacted me recently and when the subject of a title came up, I explained that I did not have one for the car issued by the Alabama Dept. of Motor Vehicles.  He went into a tirade saying he would not THINK of purchasing a car with no title for as much money as my car's asking price is!  I tried my best to explain the law here in Alabama but it would do no good.  He bascially accused me of trying to sell a stolen Eldorado!  I told him to go find another car because he wasn't going to get mine!

The law regarding titles for old vehicles in Alabama is very clear.  Alabama does not issue titles on vehicles manufactured prior to model year 1975.  The license tag receipt that I keep in my glovebox is the legal document the Alabama Dept. of Motor Vehicles issued me as proof of ownership. It contains a description of the car including the VIN.  You would need to chedk with your local DMV to see what they would require from you to register and title the car in your state.  According to my friend, all state DMV offices should have a current book indicating what other states do and do not provide and/or require in the way of titles/paperwork.  Depending upon your state, a signed and witnessed bill of sale and the current tag receipt from the seller in Alabama should be enough to register the car.

Greg McDonnell
Mobile, AL
CLC #20841
Greg McDonnell
CLC #20841

Jeff Maltby 4194

In calif back in the 90's, it we used the Dmv "Verification of Vehicle" form. A peace officer would come out to inspect-fill out the form=good to register.
Jeffo 49er chapter

CLC 1985
Honda Gold Wing GL1500

Art Woody

Greg, not all vintage cars in Al or GA for sale are licensed or driveable. Many are projects from 30 or 50 yrs ago, that have changed hands many times without being restored or registered. It is still legal to sell these cars. A car like yours with copies of up to date registration and proof of ownership w/notarized bill of sale, should fly through licensing in most states. All states are aware of the title situation in AL & GA, they just handle them differently.

Greg McDonnell

I agree, Woody,  That is what was so frustrating for me-trying to explain to this guy on the phone that I could not provide something I did not (and was never going to) have.  He kept saying how did he know I wasn't trying to sell a stolen Eldorado!  Thjat's when I lost it and told him to go find another car.

After this disturbing conversation with the irate old car collector, I decided to contact my friend who is the former license commissioner for Mobile County, where I live here in Alabama.  I wanted to know what I should say in the future should I encounter another fool who wouldn't believe me.  She explained to me that regardless of how rude and accusatory the caller had been, all I needed to do was keep repeating to him, "Alabama does not issue titles for vehicles manufactured prior to 1975.  My tag receipt is the legal document you will receive from me if you buy the car.  If you'd like to verify this, please contact any DMV office in Alabama!" Of course, Alabama did issue titles to the original purchaser of the vehicle if it was bought, say in 1964, here in Alabama.  But as far as titles issued for old cars brought into the state (which is the case with mine), they do not issue them if the car was manufactured in '74 or before.  I asked why and she said as far as she knew, the reason was to cut down on the number of titled vehicles in the state DMV's computer data base.
Greg McDonnell
CLC #20841

Doug Lemon

One point that I have not seen here is that you can not sell a car to an overseas buyer as US customs will not let a car go overseas without a valid title.I have a friend that has 2 cars sitting in Colorado without titles  and she can't get them to Australia without them.It is common knowledge in shipping circles here,,,no title  no shipping.

TJ Hopland

So for overseas you then hire one of those title service places to go to a state like Alabama and get a title?

It would really seem stupid if my state makes me go through the whole inspection bonding waiting process but if I first went to a state that gives em away no problem.  I guess it is government so we should not try to apply logic.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Fred Zwicker #23106

Maybe if negotiating for an out-of-state purchase it might be a good idea to first contact the local registrar in your state and ask about the necessity of a title from the state you are buying from.  Some states require simply a signed (or notarized) title - others do not, so this should be clarified as well. Doing this in advance might save a lot of headaches later.

The only problem is if you ask three different registrars in your area you might get three different answers.  I live in Ohio and find that the small town registrars are easier to deal with than the ones in the larger cities.  Usually one registrar employee asks another and if you are lucky, someone there will have some knowledge of the title rules for out-of-state antique cars.

I once bought a 1964 Cadillac Fleetwood at Carlisle, PA our neighboring state.  The car had a clear PA title and there was a notary on duty at the Carlisle show.  Unfortunately something was signed in the wrong place on the title and it took 2 weeks to locate the PA notary and another 2 or 3 weeks of frustration to get everything corrected.  Luckily nothing got lost in the mail.

Three or four years ago, my son bought a 1937 Ford from one of our company suppliers that was previously owned by his deceased father-in-law.   This car also had a good PA title, but the Youngstown registrar insisted that it had to be signed by the owner. Since the owner died a year prior, we were at a standoff.  My son took a death certificate and other paperwork to the Ohio registrar, who kept insisting that the title must be signed by the deceased owner.  After 4 or 5 trips back and forth, he finally took the paperwork to a small-town registrar and everything finally worked out in the end.

As as result (before purchasing a car) the first question I now ask is if it has a title and I then ask the seller to fax me a front and rear copy of the title in advance. If  a legitimate deal, seller will not object to this.  The time to do this is PRIOR to transferring funds, as later it becomes a mess.  Until reading these posts, I was not aware of non-title states, but I would want to do some serious advance checking prior to making a purchase.  There are plenty of cars for sale with good titles so as not to waste time on questionable deals. So my policy is if no title, I lose interest quickly.

I always wondered if a car was purchased without a title and a $100,000 restoration was completed and then the real owner showed up with title to the car, who owns the car?  

Fred
1930 LaSalle Convertible Coupe, CCCA Senior
1939 LaSalle 2-Dr. Conv.  CLC Senior in 2008
1940 Cadillac Series 75 4 Dr. Convertible
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1948 Cadillac Convertible - modified by Holly (driver)
1966 Cadillac DeVille Conv. Restored - Red
See Pictures at www.tpcarcollection.com

TJ Hopland

QuoteI always wondered if a car was purchased without a title and a $100,000 restoration was completed and then the real owner showed up with title to the car, who owns the car?  Fred

That is my question also.  This is where the long bonding process my state has makes sense but if you can get a valid title from other states then transfer it to my state it would then seem to be a valid title so there could then be 2 titles.  I wonder if my state has a 'footnote' that still requires the bond / inspection if it comes from one of those easy states?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Art Woody

You can't take a car to AL and get a title, AL doesn't issue titles to pre '75 vehicles. If you are buying a stolen vehicle for $10 or $100,000 the car still belongs to the person it was stolen from or the insurance co. if it applies. If the person investing $100,000 in the restoration can't produce some sort of registration or bill of sale where he purchased the car with correct vin. then stay away. You also want to check the person out, usually they won't just pop up with a $100,000 car for sale. $100,000 cars have a long paper trail and the people selling or buying them for that matter have a reputation. DMV can check vin's to see if it has been reported stolen. There are many rust free, never any rust anywhere cars in AL and GA. registered and licensed for sale just like Greg's. Also there are thousands of good project cars  and motorcycles there that are sold on bill of sale every year. Like I said, I buy about 2 a year and register them and get clean TN titles without one coming back as stolen.  A well known local drug dealer in my town showed up with a $100,000+ '57 Bel Air conv. and when the seller deposited the cash, the feds confiscated the drug money and the car. So seller beware.

Greg McDonnell

#33
I know the ownership of my car back to the day it was purchased new on November 15, 1965 from the dealership in Stillwater, MN.  In the car's file is the MN title along with the bill of sale I received from the fellow I purchased it from.  Because AL doesn't issue titles for pre-1975 manufactured vehicles, it precludes me from getting an Alabama title.  Not a big deal to me whatsoever! Yet in no way does not having an Alabama title make the car any "less legal".  It is currently (and will remain so until I sell it or die) registered to me with the car's VIN and description clearly noted on the vintage license tag receipt.  For someone to simply pass on my (or anyone else's) car because it happens to be located in a non-title state for cars of its' vintage would be terribly short sighted in my opinion.  As has been mentioned, a notarized bill of sale, a close-up photograph of the vin on the frame, the tag receipt with the car's VIN printed, or any other means of proving the car has legitimate ownership and actually is the car stated in the bill of sale should be more than enough to register the car in any of our 50 glorious states.  Selling the car abroad may indeed pose problems when it reaches the port to be loaded in a container.  I was referring to the DMVs in other states in my previous post.

Greg McDonnell
#20841
Greg McDonnell
CLC #20841

TJ Hopland

Greg is covered because he apparently has a fairly complete paper trail that includes a title, I dont see anything wrong with that whole picture.   

Now just for an example (not related to Greg or his car) lets change the story a bit......   

Lets say the car was in my family, it was in my parents garage for many years not driven so it was not in the best apparent condition. We are not really a close family and we are spread across the world so 'us kids' dont really know the day to day goings on back home.   One day when one of the parents is still alive a nice young fellow comes to the door and offers to take that old car away and gives mom who may not be 100% in the mental department a nice story and she lets him take it with no title.   This guy turns out to be a 'pro' and comes up with a good back story and sells the car with a bill of sale that's information is totally fake.  The buyer does not really dig that deep because its not a particularly valuable car so there is not a lot of money involved, he likes and wants the car because its just like the one his dad had when he was younger.  Question is could the buyer get this registered in many states?  None of us kids really notice the car being gone and assume that perhaps dad sold it or whatever.  Later after both parents have passed and their estate is legally under my control and I have the title to the car.  Later I notice a car that looks just like dads on the cover of a magazine that has won awards at a show after being fully restored. I somehow find out that it is indeed the car and Im not a very nice guy and need money for my gambling habit.  I have a 'good' title for the car and perhaps the other guy has it legally registered in his state based on what now can be concluded was a fake bill of sale.  Lets say several states now have documentation linking this bill of sale to a person that was convicted of fraud?   What happens now?  Im not telling, Im asking?   Sure not every deal would be like this but to me it does not seen that unlikely that something like this could or has happened.

IF the car in question had any significant value, say a 59 eldo both the buyer and the new state would likely do some research but if it was just a ho hum 4 door sedan is anyone going to really look that close?

   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Fred Zwicker #23106

TJ Hopland has figured out what could happen, and undoubtedly this has happened more than most of us want to admit. (Nice analysis).

We have a small car museum at work and I have gradually been purchasing cars during the current "buyer's market".  At a late November auction at the IX-Center in Cleveland was a very original (barn find) late 29s or early 30s Stutz rumble-seat roadster (see attached picture).  It was solid and complete and i would have loved to have purchased the car.  I was registered for the auction and had funds set aside for such a purchase.  However the car was without a title and was being sold on that basis, with the story that the auctioneer was trying to work out the paperwork with the family later - it may have been a part of an estate, but I don't remember all of the details. 

The car sold in the high 40s and it really hurt for me to pass up this car. Thinking it over later, had no regrets, as I felt that such a purchase was risky. In addition, assume that most of the collectors of a Stutz would know the whereabouts of most all of these models and it would undoubtedly be known that I had purchased the car.  It would be difficult for me to even think about doing a 1-2 year restoration under these circumstances.  I guess as we get older we get more cautious.

Bottom Line - For me I won't even consider looking at a car until I am assured that it has a proper title and I will want to see front and rear copies of the title in advance. Buying an antique car in a no-title state might be possible under certain circumstances, but only after doing plenty of research prior to making the purchase to be sure that I can obtain an Ohio title.

Those of us who live in some of the "difficult" states will understand this.  It is not difficult to spend days, weeks and months (hopefully not years) to work through the process in certain states.

Fred

1930 LaSalle Convertible Coupe, CCCA Senior
1939 LaSalle 2-Dr. Conv.  CLC Senior in 2008
1940 Cadillac Series 75 4 Dr. Convertible
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1948 Cadillac Convertible - modified by Holly (driver)
1966 Cadillac DeVille Conv. Restored - Red
See Pictures at www.tpcarcollection.com

Jay Friedman

As noted in Art Woody's posts, my state, Georgia, does not issue titles for cars built prior to 1965.  Unlike Alabama, which did issue titles for cars of that vintage when they were sold new but won't issue title for old cars brought into the state now, Georgia was a non-title state until 1965 (only registration with a transfer box on the reg. form) so cars older than that were never titled here. 

I have inquired several times over the years to the relevant authorities about the reason why I can't obtain a Georgia title for my 2 pre-1965 cars, since I bought both in "title" states (CA and IL), with the previous owner's title issued in their state signed over to me and notarized.  Each time, I got the same reply that "a title is not REQUIRED for a pre-1965 car in Georgia".  I answered in each case that I as an owner wanted a title and could not understand from the reply to whom the word "required" applied; that is, if the state did not "require" it, I as the owner certainly did.  In each case, from different employees, it was just repeated in a mechanical way that I could not have a title, leading me to conclude that they just didn't want to do it, for no particular reason, and that they were instructed to reply to such queries using the verb "require" in that odd way.

Interesting that I can't ship a car overseas without a title, since I have gotten inquiries about one from an guy in Australia.  I wonder if the previous owner's title signed over to me would suffice for that purpose?
1949 Cadillac 6107 Club Coupe
1932 Ford V8 Phaeton (restored, not a rod).  Sold
Decatur, Georgia
CLC # 3210, since 1984
"If it won't work, get a bigger hammer."

TJ Hopland

This must be the site I was told about when I inquired about getting a title in my state.   This is apparently where they check for history and note that a new title was issued.

http://www.vehiclehistory.gov/index.html

 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

CEC #20099

TJ Hopland ; Guess which state of the 48 IS NOT participating in the NMVTIS -- ILLINOIS. Which state is corrupt from top to bottom -- ILLINOIS. Which state wasted 6 Mo. of my time issuing a title, on a car titled & purchased from an adjoining state  -- ILLINOIS. Which state can`t find my daughter`s stolen 2004 Sebring -- ILLINOIS. And you guys think you have problems; I live here !!
CE Chleboun #20099

TJ Hopland

Doesnt IL have some unique law when it comes to stolen and recovered cars that they cant easily be re sold in the state?   I remember being told once that most of the low end used car lots in our area do all their shopping there because the locals cant bid on them. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason