Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => Technical / Authenticity => Topic started by: Camillo Gornati on February 11, 2012, 05:19:08 PM

Title: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 11, 2012, 05:19:08 PM
Hi all, after 18 months my car finally left the shop.

Here is a list of what has been done in car so far:

-Rear Coils
-Rear Shocks
-New Rear Discs
-Rear Brake Pads
-Chrome Rear Sway Bar
-Sway Bar Bushings
-8 Rear bushings
-New brake hoses for the back
-New inside tank FUEL PUMP
-New External FUEL PUMP
-New Transmission Mount
-New Engine Mounts
-8 new bushings for A-Arms
-4 new ball joints
-Chrome front sway bar
-New bushings for Front Sway Bar
-New Tie rod ends, INNER AND OUTER
-New ENGINE SEALS
-New gasket set
-New belts
-New Water Pump
-New front discs
-New front brake pads
-New Power Brakes
-New Master cylinder
-New Seals for fuel injectors
-Remanufactered ECU from a great member here in the forum, which unfortunately i cannot remember his name! Great Guy! The most knowledgeable guy about 70's EFI here...

There is a lot more stuff that has been done, but i cannot remember.

Now i have a few issues, first:

1st. Starter is doing a big noise when turns the car on, like a metal on metal noise, sometimes if fails and only spins, sometimes turns fine.
Now, what should i do? Change the whole STARTER? Change just the Starter Drive and brush?

2ND. Battery is not holding much charge, how can i check alternator?

3rd (and BIGGEST PROBLEM). After i got the car for the first time, i drove it for 20 miles, and i noticed the car failing, (sorry about my English, i am from Brasil) failing and stalling, if i step in the gas pedal, car almost dies, after 2 more miles, car died... tried to turn it back on 3 times, battery is dead :(!!!!

After car spent whole night in the street, i woke, jump start the car and right away, engine is running PERFECTLY, ODD !!!!

I drove the car to my garage, had some lunch, decided to drive to a friends house 12 miles away, on the way, same thing, stalling, failing, and dies!!! i didn't tried to turn it right back on... i wait 10 minutes to cool down, and BAM! turns on right away! drove 1 mile same thing!!! then i waited 30 minutes, and car went fine all the way.

Now what the heck is going on? i could not find a coil in the car, does it have one? what could be causing this? there is 8 fuel injectors, if it is bad fuel or dirty fuel, i dint think it would run well cold and bad hot. looks like an electrical problem! Any ideas solutions?

PLEASE ANY HELP WOULD DO!

I had this car for 4 years now, drove it for the first time, yesterday and had this problem.
Title: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: bcroe on February 11, 2012, 06:04:29 PM
Those symptoms can be caused by a lean mixture, from the ECU.  When
the engine is started, the coolant temperature detects a cold engine, and
adds a lot of enrichment.  That lets the engine run fine.  Then as it heats
up, the enrichment is removed, and it goes lean, or even dies. 

This is almost never the temp sensor, because if it fails (open circuit), the
engine will go to normal enrichment.  It COULD be caused by low fuel pressure,
caused by a dirty filter, bad pump, or bad pressure regulator (reg usually good). 
But the very common cause is a failing MAP sensor inside the ECU, or the circuit
driven by the MAP. 

You can run a test on your MAP.  Go to my PHOTOBUCKET, first sub album 70s
FUEL INJECTION, first picture.  This explains how to test a 78, 79; earlier years
don't bring the MAP out to that pin.  The 5th sub album 78 ECU SCHEMATIC
shows a schematic for your ECU. 

In general the ECU should put out an injector pulse width of 3 to 10 mill seconds
depending on manifold vacuum, when warm.  You may need to send your ECU
for repair, in any case it can be tested here for just the cost of transportation. 
I have shipped to Brazil, takes a while. 
good luck,
Bruce Roe    bcroe@juno.com   CLC # 14630
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 11, 2012, 07:12:48 PM
HEY BRUCE!!!!

You fixed my ECU remember? Camillo FROM BRASIL!!!!

Anyway, there was no change to those sensors, and the ECU was fixed by the master!!!

I have a new that i purchased on ebay, should i change it?

I can also check for leaks on the vacuum line to the MAP?

Do you know if there is a coil inside the distributor that could be causing this?

What other options i have?

Thanks for the prompt reply, i forgot your nickname here, thats why i posted that way.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 11, 2012, 07:19:12 PM
Bruce we also have some disconnected plugs and cables, i will email them to the forum tomorrow or monday.

we also replaced the that small vacuum thermal sensor, which i forgot the name, the one with 3 vaccuum plugs, which goes to the distributor advance, mine was broken, and because of that there was some disconnected vacuum lines.

I dont think fuel pressure is the issue, because both fuel pumps are NEW from ROCKAUTO.COM, and they were measured there is a lot of pressure on the line, there is a "tire like" connector on the flute that goes on the fuel injectors, and when the car died i pressed there to check if there was pressure on the line, WHAT A MESS... anyway, and another point is that the car runs great when cold and even when hot, 10 minutes is nothing to cool down a 425 after 1 hour driving in heavy traffic.

Title: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: bcroe on February 11, 2012, 08:45:48 PM
Gornati, I found my notes from 2010.  Fixed an ECU for you, which then ran
OK at the time.  Certainly get all your vacuum hoses replaced by now.  It doesn't
sound so much like ignition, but could be.  If you bought a another spare ECU for
your car (everyone with these cars needs a spare), now is the time to try it out. 
The Bendix # ought to be 161 2947, 161 2950, 161 4449, 161 4450, 161 5882,
or 161 6210.  You could use a 1977 ECU 161 1188, 161 1189, 161 1190, 161 1191,
161 1875, 161 1876, 161 1877, 161 1878, 1612079, or 161 2154. 

Is your email the same?  I'll send  message. 

And make sure the battery is charging OK, ECU needs the voltage to work.  You
said the battery went dead.  Bruce
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 11, 2012, 08:52:19 PM
Bruce, there is no markings on the ECU there is a cadillac auto recycling 77-79 deville recon computer

590-04750

STK# RECON
LOC: EBAY

R00070239

is there any numbers inside?

Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 11, 2012, 09:02:15 PM
Quote from: bcroe on February 11, 2012, 08:45:48 PM
Gornati, I found my notes from 2010.  Fixed an ECU for you, which then ran
OK at the time.  Certainly get all your vacuum hoses replaced by now.  It doesn't
sound so much like ignition, but could be.  If you bought a another spare ECU for
your car (everyone with these cars needs a spare), now is the time to try it out. 
The Bendix # ought to be 161 2947, 161 2950, 161 4449, 161 4450, 161 5882,
or 161 6210.  You could use a 1977 ECU 161 1188, 161 1189, 161 1190, 161 1191,
161 1875, 161 1876, 161 1877, 161 1878, 1612079, or 161 2154. 

Is your email the same?  I'll send  message. 

And make sure the battery is charging OK, ECU needs the voltage to work.  You
said the battery went dead.  Bruce

Bruce, email is the same, now i got a little scared, it says in the note, came out of a 1977... ouch...

Anyway, what could happen if i put a 1977 ECU in a 1978 and they are not compatible? could something burn? will the car auto explode??? lol just kidding.
Title: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: bcroe on February 11, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
Gornati, A 77 should be close enough.  Come to think of it, any ECU with
the right mounting brackets to fit your car, is likely from a 425 engine
car anyway.  Send me your email, here or to bcroe@juno.com     Bruce
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 12, 2012, 06:02:56 AM
Quote from: bcroe on February 11, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
Gornati, A 77 should be close enough.  Come to think of it, any ECU with
the right mounting brackets to fit your car, is likely from a 425 engine
car anyway.  Send me your email, here or to bcroe@juno.com     Bruce

Email sent with a pic of the car.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Scot Minesinger on February 12, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
Hi,

My 1970 Cadillac is driven about 4,000 miles each year used three times a week during nice weather.  The big problem is poor quality parts.  Installed a new starter in 2010.  It made the exact same sounds as you describe on yours after only 4,000 miles and it had to be replaced in 2011.  Replaced it with rebuilt 1970 starter done at a local shop.  Same problems with alternator and other parts.  Rockauto tends to offer low cost parts and components often fail prematurely. 

Another problem is mechanics, they mess up and don't read the manual, they install three mounting bolts when four came with the car originally, and take other short cuts.  Even the mechanics with good reputations do this.  For example, last work done a few years ago was standard transmission service.  Transmission never leaked before, but it did right after the service.  Of course the last thing you think it would be is a failure to install the gasket on the pan correctly, but that is what it was.  They old gasket was never completely removed-just cutting corners, lazy and etc.  Discovered this on my own of course.  Granted I have enjoyed some success with some mechanics too, but not consistently.  There are some good mechanics out there, but I have yet to find one that I am 100% satisfied with.  I do all repairs possible myself now.

In your list, you did not say that the fuel lines were replaced, as they should be.  They should be replaced with original materials-no installing rubber all the way back.  Don't use splices in metal tubing either, use a continuous piece just like the factory did.  The spliced metal tubing might not leak, but often you can smell gas in a garage when car is off after it has just run.

Probably a good idea to have some gauges and sensors installed so you can monitor leanness mixture, fuel pressure, vacuum, and the like.  They can be installed in a hidden place.  Then you might be able to figure out what is going on.  Since you have chromed some suspension parts departing from original ( I have done some things like this too ), consider maybe converting to a simple carburetor and retaining all the parts so you could always convert back if you want to.

Good luck and stay with it, it will be worth it,

Scot
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 12, 2012, 12:53:50 PM
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on February 12, 2012, 10:06:49 AM
Hi,

My 1970 Cadillac is driven about 4,000 miles each year used three times a week during nice weather.  The big problem is poor quality parts.  Installed a new starter in 2010.  It made the exact same sounds as you describe on yours after only 4,000 miles and it had to be replaced in 2011.  Replaced it with rebuilt 1970 starter done at a local shop.  Same problems with alternator and other parts.  Rockauto tends to offer low cost parts and components often fail prematurely. 

Another problem is mechanics, they mess up and don't read the manual, they install three mounting bolts when four came with the car originally, and take other short cuts.  Even the mechanics with good reputations do this.  For example, last work done a few years ago was standard transmission service.  Transmission never leaked before, but it did right after the service.  Of course the last thing you think it would be is a failure to install the gasket on the pan correctly, but that is what it was.  They old gasket was never completely removed-just cutting corners, lazy and etc.  Discovered this on my own of course.  Granted I have enjoyed some success with some mechanics too, but not consistently.  There are some good mechanics out there, but I have yet to find one that I am 100% satisfied with.  I do all repairs possible myself now.

In your list, you did not say that the fuel lines were replaced, as they should be.  They should be replaced with original materials-no installing rubber all the way back.  Don't use splices in metal tubing either, use a continuous piece just like the factory did.  The spliced metal tubing might not leak, but often you can smell gas in a garage when car is off after it has just run.

Probably a good idea to have some gauges and sensors installed so you can monitor leanness mixture, fuel pressure, vacuum, and the like.  They can be installed in a hidden place.  Then you might be able to figure out what is going on.  Since you have chromed some suspension parts departing from original ( I have done some things like this too ), consider maybe converting to a simple carburetor and retaining all the parts so you could always convert back if you want to.

Good luck and stay with it, it will be worth it,

Scot

Hey Scott, first let me thank you for your post.

Now, i got a very good mechanic, in Brasil we have just a V8 cars, and less mechanics who want to handle those, the new breed of mechanics here in Brasil we call a "PARTS CHANGER"... anyway.

Everytime i get parts from auto, as you already probably checked, i check for the diff in prices, as i also own a 1964 Impala SS, i got a water pump for it, and there is pumps from $17-250... i tend to get the more expensive, on bushings and ball joints i always go with the most expensive, on seals and gaskets always felpro and so on.

Fuel pressure has been measured and it is ok, today i checked the vacuum lines, all of them seems to be ok, one thing i didnt like it is that i noticed that the FAST IDLE VALVE have a small arm which activates and deactivates the microswitch, the little arm is stuck between the spring, leaving the microswitch always off.

today i will try to replace the ECU and how it goes.

Scot, i am totally against removing the ECU and go to a carb. as i am against removing the carb in my 64 SS and putting a Fuel injection.

here in the forum , BCROE agrees with me, regarding leaving the ECU, after i solve this small issue, it should run like a deer, i hope someone dont shoot it on the way...lol..

If someone, (BCROE) have the info on the right values for OIL PRESSURE, FUEL PRESSURE, VACUUM PRESSURE etc, i would definetelly put some gauges.

Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 12, 2012, 03:17:46 PM
Quote from: bcroe on February 11, 2012, 10:19:13 PM
Gornati, A 77 should be close enough.  Come to think of it, any ECU with
the right mounting brackets to fit your car, is likely from a 425 engine
car anyway.  Send me your email, here or to bcroe@juno.com     Bruce

Bruce, I didn't posted because I didn't think it was relevant, but when the car heats a little there is a constant noise coming from bellow the car.

After replacing the ecu for the new one, problems remain the same, so map and ecu are discarded.

I went down and found out the noise is the with idle, wot, and driving. So, what moving part In the car do the same noise no matter the speed and rpm?

FUEL PUMP.

the external fuel pump is making an awfull noise after it heats up... I think that my problem is right there.

What you all think?
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on February 12, 2012, 08:31:58 PM
It could also be the fuel pump inside the tank. When that one goes bad, the external one has to work harder. I see they did replace the tank pump, did they also replace the little sock filter that is underneath the pump in the tank? If that is clogged, everything has to work harder. Just a thought.

My external fuel pump was also very loud. In the end the tank fuel pump was the problem, now they are both pretty quiet. I also read on a Fiero board that the evap canister can cause fuel pumps to have to work harder.  Here is the whole article.......

"Whenever a fuel pump fails, it is wise to do at least two other service procedures: (1) change the fuel filter (Haynes manual, p. 47), and (2) change the vapor recovery canister filter.
Most people know about the fuel line filter, but few know about the vapor recovery canister filter. Why should both filters be changed? Because both filters can cause the fuel pump to work harder than necessary, heat up, and fail prematurely. It is fairly obvious that if the fuel line filter is clogged, the fuel pump has to work harder to overcome the obstruction. But exactly what is the vapor recovery canister and how can it affect the fuel pump?"
The vapor recovery canister is a part of the fuel system that keeps gasoline vapors from escaping into the atmosphere when the engine is not running and is a required part of the Federal Clean Air Act. It is connected to the fuel tank, throttle body, intake manifold, and among other things, allows expansion and contraction of the gas vapor in the fuel tank to occur without releasing hydrocarbons into the atmosphere.
It performs this function by allowing air to pass freely through the canister while trapping hydrocarbon vapors, which are absorbed into activated charcoal granules in the canister when the engine is not running. When the engine is operating, air is drawn through the canister from the atmosphere, and hydrocarbon vapors are swept out of the activated charcoal and burned with the rest of the fue1. The amount of hydrocarbons burned in this manner is exceedingly small and does not affect the air to gasoline ratio.
The canister filter is found at the bottom of the canister and is needed to keep airborne dust and other particulate material out of the charcoal bed. If the filter becomes severely clogged, air cannot pass freely through the canister to the fuel tank. When the engine is running and gasoline is being pumped from the tank, an equal volume of air replaces the volume of gasoline leaving the tank, or else a slight vacuum would be produced in the fuel tank. If this happens, the fuel pump must work harder to overcome the vacuum. In a worst-case scenario, the fuel pump will not be able to overcome the vacuum and the engine will starve for gasoline and stop.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 13, 2012, 04:17:40 AM
Quote from: waterzap on February 12, 2012, 08:31:58 PM
It could also be the fuel pump inside the tank. When that one goes bad, the external one has to work harder. I see they did replace the tank pump, did they also replace the little sock filter that is underneath the pump in the tank? If that is clogged, everything has to work harder. Just a thought.

My external fuel pump was also very loud. In the end the tank fuel pump was the problem, now they are both pretty quiet. I also read on a Fiero board that the evap canister can cause fuel pumps to have to work harder.  Here is the whole article.......

"Whenever a fuel pump fails, it is wise to do at least two other service procedures: (1) change the fuel filter (Haynes manual, p. 47), and (2) change the vapor recovery canister filter.
Most people know about the fuel line filter, but few know about the vapor recovery canister filter. Why should both filters be changed? Because both filters can cause the fuel pump to work harder than necessary, heat up, and fail prematurely. It is fairly obvious that if the fuel line filter is clogged, the fuel pump has to work harder to overcome the obstruction. But exactly what is the vapor recovery canister and how can it affect the fuel pump?"
The vapor recovery canister is a part of the fuel system that keeps gasoline vapors from escaping into the atmosphere when the engine is not running and is a required part of the Federal Clean Air Act. It is connected to the fuel tank, throttle body, intake manifold, and among other things, allows expansion and contraction of the gas vapor in the fuel tank to occur without releasing hydrocarbons into the atmosphere.
It performs this function by allowing air to pass freely through the canister while trapping hydrocarbon vapors, which are absorbed into activated charcoal granules in the canister when the engine is not running. When the engine is operating, air is drawn through the canister from the atmosphere, and hydrocarbon vapors are swept out of the activated charcoal and burned with the rest of the fue1. The amount of hydrocarbons burned in this manner is exceedingly small and does not affect the air to gasoline ratio.
The canister filter is found at the bottom of the canister and is needed to keep airborne dust and other particulate material out of the charcoal bed. If the filter becomes severely clogged, air cannot pass freely through the canister to the fuel tank. When the engine is running and gasoline is being pumped from the tank, an equal volume of air replaces the volume of gasoline leaving the tank, or else a slight vacuum would be produced in the fuel tank. If this happens, the fuel pump must work harder to overcome the vacuum. In a worst-case scenario, the fuel pump will not be able to overcome the vacuum and the engine will starve for gasoline and stop.

Wow, great post!

I don't have room to do the tests and replaces right now, car is going back to the shop ASAP.

Thanks waterzap , this will be very helpfull
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: mgbeda on February 13, 2012, 03:03:16 PM
Re: the noisy starter.  I agree with Scot that it might be a bad, new starter.  But also those starters used shims "under" (actually over except you're underneath the car) the mounting bolts between the starter and the block.  If your mechanic didn't know to check the gear clearance and shim as necessary that could cause the noise.  Or if the car originally had shims but they were not put back.  Too little clearance makes for a bad noise and wears out the starter bearings.  Changing the starter might fix it but maybe only because the replacement starter measured closer to nominal and didn't need shims (though as I recall most of the difference was between different engines, not between different starters).  There's a detailed procedure for shimming the starter in the shop manual.

Also I've generally seen that when those cars get worked on people don't put back the flywheel cover.  That makes a difference in how loud the starter sounds.

-mB
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 13, 2012, 03:35:59 PM
Quote from: mgbeda on February 13, 2012, 03:03:16 PM
Re: the noisy starter.  I agree with Scot that it might be a bad, new starter.  But also those starters used shims "under" (actually over except you're underneath the car) the mounting bolts between the starter and the block.  If your mechanic didn't know to check the gear clearance and shim as necessary that could cause the noise.  Or if the car originally had shims but they were not put back.  Too little clearance makes for a bad noise and wears out the starter bearings.  Changing the starter might fix it but maybe only because the replacement starter measured closer to nominal and didn't need shims (though as I recall most of the difference was between different engines, not between different starters).  There's a detailed procedure for shimming the starter in the shop manual.

Also I've generally seen that when those cars get worked on people don't put back the flywheel cover.  That makes a difference in how loud the starter sounds.

-mB

HI Mb, thanks for your post!!!

Im confident, my mechanic is very good, and i checked i have the flywheel cover on.

Since i purchased the car, starter make a big loud noise, and sometimes it run without engaging the engine, im sure it is the starter driver or drive, which sometimes the spring wont put the gear in place...

Anyway, the starter it is indeed a big problem, because sometimes i really have a hard time turning the engine on, but this is a easy fix already diagnosed, the shipping price of a simple drive or the whole starter, is bascially the same to Brasil, so, i think i will be getting a new whole starter.

My biggest issue, is the car dying when it drives fgor a while, i am in contact with BCROE over email, just not to flood the forum, but as soon as a solution is found, i will for sure post it here!!!

If anybody else have any pointers on those issues, i will for sure be glad to test and post results in here.

I will make a video of the starter and post it here today!

Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on February 13, 2012, 04:34:38 PM
Camillo,
If you still have a catylitic converter on your car I might suggest having that checked.  The noise and the poor performance are some of the symptoms of a plugged/collapsed Cat.
Greg Surfas
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 13, 2012, 04:38:36 PM
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on February 13, 2012, 04:34:38 PM
Camillo,
If you still have a catylitic converter on your car I might suggest having that checked.  The noise and the poor performance are some of the symptoms of a plugged/collapsed Cat.
Greg Surfas

Greg, i just made a video, is being uploaded right now to youtube... there no cat, car have a 2.5" with a flowmaster in the end, only....

Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 13, 2012, 04:50:13 PM
Quote from: Camillo Gornati on February 13, 2012, 04:38:36 PM
Greg, i just made a video, is being uploaded right now to youtube... there no cat, car have a 2.5" with a flowmaster in the end, only....

here is the video..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zhL_ibqR3iI
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 13, 2012, 04:58:52 PM
Sounds normal to me.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 13, 2012, 05:47:55 PM
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 13, 2012, 04:58:52 PM
Sounds normal to me.

Bruce. >:D

there is a big metal noise, specially when when the gear doesnt engage...
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 13, 2012, 06:24:18 PM
I couldn't hear that on the video.

But, if the noise is consistent with the gear not engaging as the Starter starts to spin, then there is a problem with the engagement of the Starter.

The Starter isn't supposed to start to turn until the Bendix is fully engaged with the Ring Gear, and if it does, then I would be looking at slackness in the Solenoid plunger, pivot point, and the saddle which rides on the Bendix.

If there is too much wear here, then the teeth of the Ring Gear will wear out and require replacing the Flex Plate.

I have never heard of a case when the starter spins, then continues to engage the ring gear whilst spinning.   One usually has to try a couple of times before the teeth will mesh.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 13, 2012, 06:33:50 PM
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 13, 2012, 06:24:18 PM
I couldn't hear that on the video.

But, if the noise is consistent with the gear not engaging as the Starter starts to spin, then there is a problem with the engagement of the Starter.

The Starter isn't supposed to start to turn until the Bendix is fully engaged with the Ring Gear, and if it does, then I would be looking at slackness in the Solenoid plunger, pivot point, and the saddle which rides on the Bendix.

If there is too much wear here, then the teeth of the Ring Gear will wear out and require replacing the Flex Plate.

I have never heard of a case when the starter spins, then continues to engage the ring gear whilst spinning.   One usually has to try a couple of times before the teeth will mesh.

Bruce. >:D

flexplate is brand new... will replace starter ASAP!!!
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 13, 2012, 06:59:15 PM
Before you replace the Starter, pull it and check for sloppiness in the bendix area, and the pivoting lever.   These parts are replaceable, and should be available at the dealer.

And, look closely at the condition of the Flex Plate ring gear teeth.   You might have to turn the crank a bit by hand to see the teeth, as these engines usually stop in one of three positions, and it is here where the teeth damage can be seen.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on February 13, 2012, 09:43:49 PM
It starts easily enough. The pumps come on and shuts off when the engine isnt running. Engine starts. Runs good.

Nice car. I might have to expand my collection one of these days.

On a side note, what do you do about the gasoline? Dont you have a lot of ethanol down there?
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Hankk17 on February 13, 2012, 11:37:12 PM
I've owned a bunch of these and that "starter noise" is completely normal.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 14, 2012, 07:27:24 AM
Quote from: Hankk17 on February 13, 2012, 11:37:12 PM
I've owned a bunch of these and that "starter noise" is completely normal.

well, if the starter noise is ok, lets move on to the stalling engine when hot issue...
lol...

Thanks for the replies.

Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 14, 2012, 07:34:47 AM
Quote from: waterzap on February 13, 2012, 09:43:49 PM
It starts easily enough. The pumps come on and shuts off when the engine isnt running. Engine starts. Runs good.

Nice car. I might have to expand my collection one of these days.

On a side note, what do you do about the gasoline? Dont you have a lot of ethanol down there?

Gasoline here is pretty good, and yes we do have a lot of ethanol, every single gas station you are able to get GAS (petrol) Alcohol (ETHANOL) , DIESEL and PROPANE, we do have cars running on propane here, mostly TAXI's.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 14, 2012, 09:12:52 PM
TTT for a 78 in final restoration phase...
Anymore tips?
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on February 14, 2012, 10:57:53 PM
Have you replaced the temperature sensors? I know this is a long shot, but they do fail, and seeing you have replaced so many other things....

Also, dont worry about the fast idle valve. It really is just to increase the idle for a few seconds. When the temperature is warm, it should close in about a minute anyway. I have read that some people bypass it totally. Take it out, and have them install something to just keep the plunger closed. All that will happen is that your idle will be low when you start the car, and as the car heats up, it might increase a BIT. Try that and see if it works for you, get rid of one variable.

Your idle should be around 600 per the manual, but you can increase it a bit without any problems. In front of the throttle body there is a screw. Play around with that for the idle.

Also, is your EGR working?
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 15, 2012, 04:35:33 AM
Quote from: waterzap on February 14, 2012, 10:57:53 PM
Have you replaced the temperature sensors? I know this is a long shot, but they do fail, and seeing you have replaced so many other things....

Also, dont worry about the fast idle valve. It really is just to increase the idle for a few seconds. When the temperature is warm, it should close in about a minute anyway. I have read that some people bypass it totally. Take it out, and have them install something to just keep the plunger closed. All that will happen is that your idle will be low when you start the car, and as the car heats up, it might increase a BIT. Try that and see if it works for you, get rid of one variable.

Your idle should be around 600 per the manual, but you can increase it a bit without any problems. In front of the throttle body there is a screw. Play around with that for the idle.

Also, is your EGR working?

I dont know if the EGR is working, what are the simptoms? and how to test it?

The temperature sensors (there is 2 right?) i tested 1 year ago, using a meter, getting 1000 ohms with engine cool, those are cheap, i dont care changing them, if they have any problems.

Thanks again
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on February 15, 2012, 09:43:14 PM
1000 ohms, they should be ok
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 16, 2012, 06:41:22 AM
Quote from: waterzap on February 15, 2012, 09:43:14 PM
1000 ohms, they should be ok


Waldo and anybody else, do you think that a bad transducer and EGR could be causing this?
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on February 24, 2012, 11:09:33 AM
no news yet, just received my EFI chart off ebay, still waiting on the EFI supplement to continue tests.
will keep you posted...
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on March 08, 2012, 02:43:23 PM
just teceived the EFI DIAGNOSIS MANUAL, 82 pages of pure diagnosis, i will find this problem!!!

C
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on March 25, 2012, 04:26:40 PM
Ok, as i promissed, I'm posting some advances...

After turning the engine a lot of times, i noticed that the starter had a broken neck, and to replace just the neck, was about the price of a new one from ROCKAUTO, i decided to get a new one form AC DELCO, costed me about 120 with shipping.

After doing some research on the net, i discovered that my last 2 starters went bad, because of the missing support in the back of the starter, so we had to fabricate one... took about 2 hours, but neo the new starter in from in place, no more metal clanking sounds when turning the engine!

Now the problem, after running the engine for 20 minutes with the fuel pressure gauge, the gauge was steady at 40 psi, with the fuel pressure regulator disconnected, steady 40 psi, until after 25 minutes, the EXTERNAL FUEL PUMP start doing some strong noises, and together with the noise, came the pressure drop, from 40 was oscillating to 13-25, and going back to 40psi...

Now the question is, the pump is not hot at all, so what i think is the fuel filter could be a problem, so, after 20 minutes we were able to open the container with fuel filter, replaced and tested.. same issue.

As there is no real prove that the external pump is bad, and the external pump is new, I'm thinking the problem could be internal pump failing to deliver fuel to the external one. could this be possible?

Anyway, as i live in Brasil, and is very hard and expensive to get parts, i decided to save on shipping and got both pumps new from ROCKAUTO, new strainer etc... will arrive here on the 29th, saturday we will change them and next sunday i will have some updates.

Now the question, could this be a issue with a temperature sensor? or a vacuum advance bad? engine timing is ok, @1400 rpm, TPS looks ok, fast idle valve is ok also, fuel pressure regulator is also ok, i will double check the sensors next saturday, car is one hour from me now, so i can only go there saturday!

Post me your opinions.

Thanks.

Camillo
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on March 26, 2012, 04:36:25 PM
Also, have them wash out the tank as best as possible and replace the fuel socket filter. Before buying anyhing else, do that pump first. I am almost 99% certain this is your problem. The fuel system from the back to the front is the internal pump, filter, external pump, hoses and then your fuel rail with the fuel regulator. But that is pretty much it.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on March 31, 2012, 12:31:20 PM
ok,  tested temperature sensors, 950 ohms each, removed the tank, and new fuel pump the other mechanic had replaced, still had the old pre-filter, with a big hole... lets see the pics.

replaced in tank pump, replaced pre-filter, we are going out for a ride, will post results in a few minutes.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on March 31, 2012, 01:07:02 PM
ok, now fuel issue is gone, now cilinder #7 is failing, now diagnosing, if problem is spark plug, cable, bistributor, or what...
i will keep you guys posted..
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on March 31, 2012, 01:37:08 PM
First replace the plug. If still a problem, replace the wire. Then look into a new distributor cap and rotor.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on March 31, 2012, 08:37:58 PM
Also replace the filter under the evap canister in front
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on March 31, 2012, 08:39:43 PM
Quote from: Camillo Gornati on March 31, 2012, 12:31:20 PM
ok,  tested temperature sensors, 950 ohms each, removed the tank, and new fuel pump the other mechanic had replaced, still had the old pre-filter, with a big hole... lets see the pics.

replaced in tank pump, replaced pre-filter, we are going out for a ride, will post results in a few minutes.

Previous guy didn't do a good job.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: 62droptop on March 31, 2012, 09:23:51 PM
where is the gas tank vented??

if it is through the charcoal canister or otherwise. if the venting is inadequate the system will run out of fuel

try driving the car ,when it dies, open the gas cap and listen for a vacuum suction noise

if so ,you need to find the vent and make sire it is unobstructed

i had the issue before on a car, ran great for a short while then died, ofter off a couple minutes i could drive it again
but only a short time, i finally found out the car had wrong non vented gas cap when it should have had a vented one and the vent tube off the tank was pinched closed
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 08:30:27 AM
Quote from: waterzap on March 31, 2012, 01:37:08 PM
First replace the plug. If still a problem, replace the wire. Then look into a new distributor cap and rotor.

replaced the plug had a little improvement, idle RPM went to 610 to 650-655 rpm, without turning the screw, still a little rough, sometimes car shakes a little, will try to purchase a cap and rotor and replace all cables.
thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 08:32:52 AM
Quote from: waterzap on March 31, 2012, 08:39:43 PM
Previous guy didn't do a good job.

At first that what i though, but the shop owner, did most of the work, they had a guy working there, which replaced the fuel pumps and was supposed to change the pre-filter, but for some reason he didnt... anyway, car is almost 100% ok mechanical parts, after that i will redo the interior and in a few months, full repaint.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 08:33:23 AM
Quote from: waterzap on March 31, 2012, 08:37:58 PM
Also replace the filter under the evap canister in front

i already bought one of those, waiting for it on the mail
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 08:34:50 AM
Quote from: 62droptop on March 31, 2012, 09:23:51 PM
where is the gas tank vented??

if it is through the charcoal canister or otherwise. if the venting is inadequate the system will run out of fuel

try driving the car ,when it dies, open the gas cap and listen for a vacuum suction noise

if so ,you need to find the vent and make sire it is unobstructed

i had the issue before on a car, ran great for a short while then died, ofter off a couple minutes i could drive it again
but only a short time, i finally found out the car had wrong non vented gas cap when it should have had a vented one and the vent tube off the tank was pinched closed
that was one of the first things we checked, everything was ok, regarding venting..
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on April 01, 2012, 01:47:48 PM
Quote from: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 08:30:27 AM
replaced the plug had a little improvement, idle RPM went to 610 to 650-655 rpm, without turning the screw, still a little rough, sometimes car shakes a little, will try to purchase a cap and rotor and replace all cables.
thanks for the info.

cap, rotor and condenser. If you can, buy a blue cap. Something about the carbon in the black. Don't quite remember. Take out the fast idle valve and block the hole with a rubber stopper. Don't need it in Brazil and one less thing to worry about. Also check the fuel injector in that cylinder. Get two spares and just swap one out.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 03:20:47 PM
Quote from: waterzap on April 01, 2012, 01:47:48 PM
cap, rotor and condenser. If you can, buy a blue cap. Something about the carbon in the black. Don't quite remember. Take out the fast idle valve and block the hole with a rubber stopper. Don't need it in Brazil and one less thing to worry about. Also check the fuel injector in that cylinder. Get two spares and just swap one out.

really remove the FIV? wont make any easier to turn the car on in the morning?
I just got a "new one"from a friend... lol..

here is the first drive after 2 years.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on April 01, 2012, 06:35:57 PM
If it works fine, then leave it. But you really dont need it in Brazil, and if you are wondering about high idle speed, remove the plunger, keep the valve there, keep the spring, and plug the hole. Just as a test. Then see what your idle is.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Gene Beaird on April 01, 2012, 07:21:45 PM
Nice car!  I bet that thing's quite a sight in Brazil.  :-)
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 07:50:48 PM
Quote from: waterzap on April 01, 2012, 06:35:57 PM
If it works fine, then leave it. But you really dont need it in Brazil, and if you are wondering about high idle speed, remove the plunger, keep the valve there, keep the spring, and plug the hole. Just as a test. Then see what your idle is.

tuesday i will be in the shop again i will do the test.

We are finishing the electrical part, some check lights aren't working, have to install stereo and speakers...
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 07:51:36 PM
Quote from: Gene Beaird on April 01, 2012, 07:21:45 PM
Nice car!  I bet that thing's quite a sight in Brazil.  :-)

This is the outskirts in Sao Paulo, very clear air..
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 08:53:53 PM
Now, here is what was wrong with the vacuum lines... please have mercy...

Transmission modulator was disconnected;
Vacuum line for the A/C-Heating, was connected on the transmission modulator connector;
PCV VALVE is plugged;
MAP was connected on the the wrong plug;
Heater diaphragm, was disconnected, so heating was ON all the time, here in Brasil climate is about 25-28 celsius all the time...;
EGR was on the MAP connector, MAP was on the EGR connector...

Because of this, we had a very hot car to ride all the time, no change on the gears, terrible idle because of the MAP sensor getting the wrong reading and bad mileage as EGR was also bad.

we are getting there!
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: waterzap on April 01, 2012, 10:03:17 PM
What did the shop do when you took it to them?
Those vacuum diagrams are in the book. Very easy to just follow the lines.
Title: Re: Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...
Post by: Camillo Gornati on April 01, 2012, 10:35:38 PM
the book arrived few days ago.