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replacing timing set on 1973 Coupe deVille 472

Started by cadillac73, August 19, 2017, 04:07:45 PM

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cadillac73

Hi, I need to replace the timing gear and chain on my '73 Coupe deVille 472.  Can anyone point me to a step-by-step how-to instructions or video or something?  I have the shop manual, but it doesn't give me those instructions.  Thanks.
Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Cat,
Thi operation has been previously described multiple times.  The short version is, if you need to replace the timing set, you probably have plastic debris from the old cam gear in the oil pan.  That said, the prescribed process is like this;
1. drop the exhaust by disconnecting the pipes at the exhasust manifolds.
2. Drop the steering drag link at the pitman arm.
3. remove the oil pan.
4.remove the water pump.
5. Remove the crankshaft pulley and damper.
6. Remove the crankshaft hub.
7. remove the timing cover.
8.Unbolt the rocker arm stands to relieve pressure on the cam shaft so it can be rotated (be careful with the push rods).
9. Remove oil slinger from the crankshaft nose (should slide right off-remember how it went on).
10.pull the gear off the crankshaft-It is just a tight, slide on fit.
11. Unbolt and remove the camshaft gear- be sure and use these same bolts when re installing the gear.
12.Follow the instructions that come with the timing set for installation.
Installation is the reverse of the above.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#2
Listen to Greg, he knows all---
When dropping the oil pan you may need to rotate the engine to get the counterweights out of the way. I tried everything and finally gave up on that part (I do that very rarely) and was told this after the fact.
Take pictures of how it comes apart so you have them when you go to put it back together.... do not rely on your memory. Take pictures.
Also, take a picture if the timing marks when you are done. If you have issues after the fact you will be asked if the timing is off.... this way you will be sure. Then again I am a little ocd so that helps me.
You may lose knuckle skin on the radiator when taking the fan bolts out. Just remember a job isn't done until you draw a little blood.
Don't put the fan on backwards.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

TJ Hopland

If its still together and running now take timing readings before you start just to see where things are now.  One reason for this is over the years there were different crank pulleys and timing gauges that didn't all align the same so now is the time to find out that something is off.   If the timing is in the ballpark of what its supposed to be that is good.   If its say 20* off you now know that to make it work again you have to be 20* off. 

Cloyes is the preferred brand.   There have been issues reported with other brands especially store brands.   Cloyes has at least 2 grades either is fine for a stock application.   

Remember #1 cylinder is on the right side of this engine and with the crank sprocket mark at 12 and the cam sprocket at 6  #1 will be on exhaust and #4 is on compression so if you install the distributor you would want the rotor pointing to the #4 terminal.   12 and 12 would be the #1 terminal.   If you rotate the engine to align the timing mark before you take it apart you should be on the 4 or 1 terminal and see the crank at 12 and the cam at 6 or 12.

When the timing cover is off get some 1/4-20 nuts welded to the inside for the water pump bolts.   Very common to have those threads damaged so now is the time to make sure it won't ever be a problem again.   If you get it all cleaned up then thread in some temporary bolts then spin on the nuts its a minute of welding.   You could even hit it with a grinder so the welder won't have to.   Note the torque specs for the little bolts are in inch pounds, not foot pounds like the rest which is one reason you may need the nuts.

While all the front is all apart is a good time to swap pulleys to get rid of the smog pump if that was a modification you were thinking about doing at some point.  MTS has a kit with pulleys belt and plugs so you don't have to go searching junkyards anymore. 

Check your power steering pulley nut for tightness and no signs of wear while you have room to work.  I have seen them loose and it starts to chew up the pulley.   Its keyed so it will run loose for quite a while. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

cadillac73

Thank you all for the awesome advice.  I got it running briefly and checked the timing yesterday and when #1 is at TDC the rotor is pointed at #3.  So I guess that means it jumped a tooth or two? 

Also, just for my own peace of mind, when I'm talking about #1, I'm talking about the very front cylinder on the passenger side, yes? 

This whole timing thing is scary to me. 

I ordered a stock timing set from Cloyes. 

Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

TJ Hopland

Yes front right passenger side is #1.   That side is the odd bank.   Drivers side is even. 

Firing order is 1-5-6-3-4-2-7-8   

1 and 4 both align the timing mark so 3 is only one off which could be fine working by eye with a worn out chain.   If you take it apart in that position you should see the cam timing mark in the 6 o clock ish position.  This should put #1 on exhaust stroke which has exhaust valve open and #4 on compression which is both closed.   

Also remember we are talking terminal / wire numbers, not where the rotor is pointing on the engine.     Typically 1 is on the right and 4 is on the left but it doesn't have to be that way.    Follow the wires to know for sure.   

 

StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

cadillac73

Hi everyone I’m back working on this thing again. Have crank sprocket at 6 and cam at 12. #4 cylinder on compression and #4 distributor terminal pointed at #4. Do I have it right now?
Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

cadillac73

Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

TJ Hopland

Sounds correct.   

Cam mark at 6.  Crank mark 12 should mean timing mark is at 0 and #4 firing  #1 exhaust. 

If you spin the crank a full turn that should mean cam mark is at 12, crank mark still 12,  timing mark still zero but this time #1 would be firing and #4 would be exhaust.   This is the little detail they don't tell you in the instructions leading to a lot of burnt eyebrows and swearing.  If they said stab in the dizzy 180* off or give er a spin the internet forum may have never been invented.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

cadillac73

Ok. Done that way it would not start. Engine just dragged and dragged. Reset #1 cylinder to compression (piston all the way to the top) and reset distributor so rotor button pointing at #1 cylinder and it started and ran. Crappy, but it ran.
Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

The Tassie Devil(le)

That is the way it is supposed to be.

But, now you have to time the distributor to around 8 Degrees BTC with the vacuum off the distributor and plugged.

After replacing the vacuum onto the distributor, the ignition should jump to around 24 degrees advance.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

cadillac73

Which is the way it is supposed to be?  On #1 or #4?
Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

The Tassie Devil(le)

Don't forget that No. 1 cylinder is the left front.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

cadillac73

Yup that’s where I’ve got the rotor pointing. So now you’re saying I need to take the vacuum off the distributor, plug it, and set timing to 8 degrees btdc then put the vacuum back on and it should be good?  I’m sorry for all the questions but this is kinda over my head and I’m scared to screw it up and destroy my valves.
Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

You are smart to be concerned and ask questions. That us what this forum is for.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

35-709

#15
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on January 23, 2018, 06:47:56 AM
Don't forget that No. 1 cylinder is the left front.

Bruce. >:D
Right front on the 501 series engines (472, etc.).  ;D

This is what happens when you drive on the wrong side of the road!
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

TJ Hopland

If you are standing in front of the car looking at the engine #1 would be on your left behind the alternator even if you drive on the wrong side like Bruce.   

Yes to set the timing on this vintage you disconnect and plug the vacuum advance and set it at idle.   I don't have a manual in front of me but 8* sounds plausible.   

1 or 4 should not matter, timing mark aligns on both and you can hook your timing light to either one.   The trick is to figure out for sure which position the engine is in and make the distributor match that.   I think the reason people usually use #1 just because its usually easier to find and you don't have to know the firing order.   1 is always a front corner.   Looking for the 5th in the firing order (for a V8) means you have to know something about the engine you are working on.       

Always remember distributors (any make or model) don't know or care what goes to where on their own.  If the wires were long enough you could put them anywhere you want as long as the order was correct.   Its where you hook the wires that identify what is what.  From the factory there is usually a convention which is good to stick to if you can but its possible to change it.  Classic Chev is one where the factory convention was the rotor physically points in the physical direction of #1.  Many people get fixated on this and think it applies to any engine.   These engines usually end up pointing more in the 3-5 range.   

A reason they often get changed is say you can't quite get the timing where you want it because the vacuum canister hits the intake.  The proper and often frustrating fix for that would be to remove the distributor and shift it one tooth which means you have to move the oil pump to get it to drop all the way.   Sometimes that oil pump shaft just doesn't want to cooperate so an alternative would be to just shift all the wires over one terminal. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on January 23, 2018, 06:47:56 AM
Don't forget that No. 1 cylinder is the left front.  Bruce. >:D   
A BIG OOOOOPPPPPPS.   Sorry about that.

I did mean Right front.   I am left handed, and when I typed it, I was using my left index finger, and it was my naughty hand that typed Left, when my brain told it to print Right.

I think I will go back to sleep.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

35-709

Doesn't matter where you are standing, the right side of the car is always the right side of the car and the left is always the left!  Unless of course you live in Great Britain, Australia, Tasmania, Japan and a few others --- in which case the left side of the car is always the left and the right side is always the right!   ;D 
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

The Tassie Devil(le)

Geoff,

Tasmania is a part of Australia, but, you knew that.

But, more Cadillacs and LaSalles on the mainland though.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe