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Zinc additive

Started by gkhashem, January 20, 2018, 02:12:18 PM

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Jon S

Quote from: Carl Fielding on January 21, 2018, 12:54:54 AM
Please defend this statement.   - CC

Replacing dino oil with synthetic oil is all over the WEB and from friends it's been verified that leaks develop where there were none staying with dino oil. The tolerances were different and I stick to Quaker State and Pennzoil in 4 of my 5 cars. It's a personal decision, but I find changing my oil and filter every 2,000 miles has worked well for me. No sludge or varnish.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Jon S

#21
Quote from: walt chomosh #23510 on January 21, 2018, 10:18:03 AM
When I first noticed that oil "changed"(low/no zinc), I struggled to get any info in regards as to why? I then purchased GM's genuine "breakin additive" and began to add it to my oil. Well, I pulled my oil pan for whatever reason and found gobs of it clinging to the bottom of my pan! The was the end of my GM additive and fortunately Valvoline (and others) came to the rescue and produced and promoted "racing oil". Problem solved......walt....tulsa,ok

I find it hard to believe you found globs of break in oil clinging to the bottom of your pan. How did you distinguish this as break in oil?  I've never had to drop the pans on any of my cars, but did replace the valley pan on the Cadillac. Viewing the upper side of the engine I was amazed at the absence of varnish and sludge. It looked like a 5,000 mile motor!  I know when I drain my hot oil, it flows smoothly with no lumps or clumps and when I clean the filter housing there is nothing but an oil film in there. As such, I believe everything has mixed well and I am getting the protection I expect. BTW, the key to changing oil is to do it at operating temperature so all the acid and contaminants are held in suspension when you drain the oil.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Bobby B

I've had a few Flatheads apart and they all had one think in common....About 1/2"-1" of a almost solid like thick paste at the bottom of the pan that had to be removed with a metal putty knife. I can see that after "X" amount of years of neglect that this could happen. It was just weird that it almost looked identical in every one..... ???
                                                                                                        Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

gkhashem

I have been adding ZDDP to my older engines and have never seen any goo in the pan or coming out of it?

Anyway have seen no issues and I probably am doing over kill but I have been changing the oil yearly no matter how many miles I have gone. I am debating going to a spring/fall rotation on my cars to maybe go 18 months. But I wonder if it is worth it to save $20.00-25.00.

I only drive on average 200-400 miles on the cars I have owned for more than a year. The newer acquisitions may go 1500-2000 miles the first year as I like to get the bugs out when I sort a car that's new to me.

I guess Jon the Lucas additive may be cheaper since you use half a bottle but we are splitting pennies at this point.
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

gkhashem

Quote from: Bobby B on January 21, 2018, 12:50:32 PM
I've had a few Flatheads apart and they all had one think in common....About 1/2"-1" of a almost solid like thick paste at the bottom of the pan that had to be removed with a metal putty knife. I can see that after "X" amount of years of neglect that this could happen. It was just weird that it almost looked identical in every one..... ???
                                                                                                        Bobby

I must be fortunate since every time I get a "new" car I drop the oil pan, clean them out and change the pan gasket (unless the engine needs to be lifted  to get the pan out and I get my mechanic to do that) and all my oil pans have been relatively clean. Lucky I guess. Same with the transmission pans only one car had some clutch debris in the pan. (the 1984 Oldsmobile and I have been told the transmissions were weak in those cars, it still works but may need a rebuild at some point and this was a 23K mile car when purchased by me)

Also have have a couple of valley covers off and no major sludge issues almost clean like new. Tells you what frequent oil changes do for an engine. Wish I could thank all the former owners for a job well done.
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

Dave Shepherd

Quote from: Dave Shepherd on January 21, 2018, 12:01:35 PM
Great article, I have been using Gm break in additive in a 350 Sbc, and a 331  Hemi, had the pan off both, didn't see any sign of some kind oil seperation, of  course this is not proof of the effectiveness of the additive, both engines are stock rebuilds., Used Mobil 1 in my 426 all out race car and bearing life is as expected.

Jon S

BTW, the reason ZDDP levels (zinc and phosphorus) were reduced was to improve the life expectancy of catalytic converters in the newer cars not to mention roller bearings don't need the extra lubrication. Most of our flat tappet cars are pre-catalytic converters.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Cape Cod Fleetwood

FWIW, I was told to use Lucas Hot Rod Oil in my 1970 Fleetwood. It was stated it had the highest amount of zinc. Its in the box along with the correct filter, waiting for 'engine day'. YMMV.
Laurie!
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

Dan LeBlanc

Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on January 26, 2018, 11:08:08 PM
FWIW, I was told to use Lucas Hot Rod Oil in my 1970 Fleetwood. It was stated it had the highest amount of zinc. Its in the box along with the correct filter, waiting for 'engine day'. YMMV.
Laurie!

I use Shell Rotella T4 15w-40 In my 70. It's a great bang for the buck and is a quality off the shelf oil with more than enough zinc. Perfectly fine for use in summer temperatures according to the manual also.

5qt jug is about $20
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

gkhashem

Dan that is a great price. Is the weight OK?

I usually use 10W-30.
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

Jon S

Quote from: gkhashem on January 28, 2018, 01:13:36 PM
Dan that is a great price. Is the weight OK?

I usually use 10W-30.

The weight is actually fine. The 40w is actually better for hot summer weather and the 15w is fine for but the coldest of mornings. They now are formulating 5w/50 for year round use. I doubt Dan is using the 1970 on sub freezing mornings.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

bcroe

Quote from: Bobby BI've had a few Flatheads apart and they all had one think in common....About 1/2"-1" of a almost solid like thick paste at the bottom of the pan that had to be removed with a metal putty knife. I can see that after "X" amount of years of neglect that this could happen. It was just weird that it almost looked identical in every one..... ???    Bobby   

Could that layer be related to an engine not having an oil filter? 

Doing oil, filter, and a dose of zinc every 2500 miles.  On the rare
event of pan removal, about all I see is clean oil.  Bruce Roe

Jon S

Quote from: bcroe on January 28, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
Could that layer be related to an engine not having an oil filter? 

Doing oil, filter, and a dose of zinc every 2500 miles.  On the rare
event of pan removal, about all I see is clean oil.  Bruce Roe

Remember a lot of flatheads (all) were built before the advent of detergent oils and these oils tended to develop sludge. If the flatheads have been rebuilt and using modern multi-viscosity detergent oils (as opposed to straight weight) and still develop that thick layer, then maybe the lack of the oil filter is the answer.
Jon

1958 Cadillac Sedan De Ville
1973 Lincoln Continental Coupe
1981 Corvette
2004 Mustang GT

Bobby B

Quote from: bcroe on January 28, 2018, 02:08:19 PM
Could that layer be related to an engine not having an oil filter? 

Doing oil, filter, and a dose of zinc every 2500 miles.  On the rare
event of pan removal, about all I see is clean oil.  Bruce Roe

Bruce,
  The oil comes out looking like it does for a normal oil change. I'm talking about it being almost solidified. It seems to form a thick layer on the bottom that  doesn't drain out, the oil just skates over it when you change it. You wouldn't notice it until you pull the pan off. Every engine had the same gunk, almost identical. Could just be my Plain Old Bad Luck  ::).......
                                                              Bobby.......
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

FWIW I remember in the 50's that dropping the oil pan and cleaning out the gunk was a normal and routine maintenance procedure.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

gkhashem

#35
Could the sludge just be the result of the detergent oil actually cleaning the inside of the engine and this is depositing at the bottom of the pan after a few oil changes?

I found this online

When “detergent oils” first appeared, everyone’s engine repair business increased. Tired, worn out engines, full of sludge deposits because they had always been serviced with non-detergent oils, were ill advisedly transfused with detergent oil, which promptly attacked the sludge deposits. Engine bearing surfaces were flooded with oil containing a high concentration of newly suspended sludge particles. And during the phase-in of detergent engine oils, a number of chemical elixirs for “engine oil desludging” appeared. With current engines, we often encounter similar failures when engines are accidentally overfilled and loosen normally benign engine deposits. Unless you’re very young or your principal residence is a cave, none of this should be news.
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

Bobby B

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on January 28, 2018, 03:48:21 PM
FWIW I remember in the 50's that dropping the oil pan and cleaning out the gunk was a normal and routine maintenance procedure.

I guess I don't feel so Bad now  ::)........
                                  Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on January 28, 2018, 03:48:21 PM
FWIW I remember in the 50's that dropping the oil pan and cleaning out the gunk was a normal and routine maintenance procedure.
Greg Surfas
Plus the pulling of the rocker covers to adjust the tappets.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

64\/54Cadillacking

#38
I’ve tried using different oils in my 64 to try to get one of my noisy lifters to shut up. After using Mobil 1 0W40, Mobil 1 15W50 and now Valvoline 20W50 Race Oil with a bottle of Rislone Zinc Additive, the Valvoline race oil has quieted the lifter the longest.

On a cold nights, the ticking will sound bad but after a few minutes of warming up, the lifter noise will go away.

I was having an issue with fuel dilution in the oil from my fuel pump, so the 0W40 Mobil 1 would thin out too fast and make the lifter noisy in a short amount of time.

I think with certain older Cads, fuel dilution is a problem especially since they love to run rich and have high compression, so a full synthetic 5W30 might be too thin vs a 5W30 Dino oil. Always use a zinc additive, it doesn’t matter how great your oil choice may be, because the times I’ve changed the oil in my 64 and I decided not to put in Rislone, the lifter noise didn’t go away until I added a bottle of it into the crankcase.

The Valvoline race oil is a conventional oil, and the 20W50 is pretty thick with high levels of zinc already in it, but I haven’t had any issues with the engine as far noises or performance goes due to the heavier thicker oil.

Next time I might switch to a 5W40 Dino oil to lessen the stress on the oil pump and it’s possible failure, with a bottle of zinc and see how that turns out.
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Glen

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on January 28, 2018, 03:48:21 PM
FWIW I remember in the 50's that dropping the oil pan and cleaning out the gunk was a normal and routine maintenance procedure.
Greg Surfas

Been there, done that.  Was my job as a teen ager with the family cars. 

Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104