Author Topic: 1966 California smog vacuum issues  (Read 551 times)

Offline CadillacGirl_1966

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1966 California smog vacuum issues
« on: February 03, 2018, 09:57:14 PM »
Hey guys so this is my first post :) Someone recommended I post here from one of the other cadillac groups. I have a 1966 california smog equipped cadillac that I am having some issues with. She's been torn apart for about 2 years now and I'm finally getting around to putting her back together. Unfortunately I've lost all the photos I took that show me where everything goes. I am having some trouble figuring out what vacuum hoses go to which ports.

First up is the tube that come out of the bottom of the air cleaner. It has a ridge on the tip of it as though there was a hose attached at some point. Not sure where that goes to...

Next is the air bleed valve. That's what its called in the shop manual, anyway. It has a hose that goes into the bottom of it and two that go out the side. One is very small (which I think goes to a small port on the intake but I am not sure which). The other is much larger and the book says this port goes to the back of the carb, however it's my understanding that the brake booster vacuum hose goes there.

As this is a california emissions car, there is a valve attached to the firewall that has a hose which goes to one of the ports on the intake I think. However the intake has one more larger port that I cant figure out.  In addition, my insulator plate has 2 ports instead of 1. I know the front one goes to the PCV valve, and attaches to the breather tube in the valley pan. But I cant remember where the rear port goes to. The rear port is much smaller than the front one.

I have attached some photos of what I mean. I hope someone can help me because I just havent got a clue. I want to get her running again in the next week or so if I can!

Offline Series75

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 04:53:43 PM »
First question for you because it affects your whole re-installation.   Will you be using the factory carter carb?   Tom
1961 75 Series

Online 67_Eldo

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2018, 10:18:20 AM »
My 1967 Eldorado is a California car (with a Quadrajet), so it is probably similar, pollution-wise, to yours. Unfortunately, I received my car with the A.I.R. system hacked to bits and without an A.I.R. pump so I had to learn about the A.I.R. system to figure out what was missing and what I needed to change.

In the 1967 Cadillac shop manual, there is a section under "Engine Mechanical" titled "Air Injection Reactor (A.I.R.)." I'd hope that there'd be a similar section in your manual. Here's what my manual says about the mysterious vacuum port -- the 'intake air bleed' -- which is now shut off on my car.

"The intake air bleed valve is attached by a bracket to the rear of the intake manifold. It senses manifold vacuum through a three-sixteenths inch fitting at the front of the carburetor. During sudden deceleration, vacuum increase causes the valve to open, allowing air from the "Y" fitting on the right air injection manifold to pass through the valve, into the base of the carburetor through a five-eighths inch fitting. The additional air in the intake manifold leans out the air-fuel mixture to prevent "backfire." Approximate duration of the valve opening is two seconds."

Offline CadillacGirl_1966

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2018, 03:47:34 PM »
Yes I am using the stock setup and carb. I have everything put back together and I was hoping the hoses would fall into place but no, still have no idea.

My vacuum advance is attached to the front of the carb as far as I know.  That was one of the only things I thought I knew where it went. I do have and AIR system but there is one page of an illustration which is difficult to decipher and nothing really said about it.

I do have a Y fitting. One hole is bigger the other smaller. The smaller one goes to the transmission module. Throughout parts of the book I ave discerned that the brake booster is attached to the other fitting. There is another L shaped double fitting as well on the other side of the manifold.

My bakelite insulator has 2 fittings, one in the front and one in the back. The front one is attached to the PCV valve. The rear one... I have no idea. The fitting on the air bleed valve for the vacuum sensing hose is very small. I am thinking maybe it goes to the small port on the back of the insulator? And the other fitting is really big. In the book the illustration of the AIR system says this fitting goes to the back of the carb but the fitting on the carb is MUCH smaller.

Originally my brake vacuum hose was attached to the back of the carb. I am so frustrated because I had photos of all this and its driving me insane trying to figure this out. There seems to be very few out there who know and even less who agree on where things go.  I will take and upload some more photos of the progress I have made in a bit. Thank you guys for helping me

Online 67_Eldo

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2018, 05:52:50 PM »
I'll first repeat my disclaimer: My experience is with an air-conditioned 1967 Eldorado whose vacuum system had been completely "re-imagined" by a previous owner. The 67 Eldo uses a different carb, intake manifold, and who knows what else compared to a generic 1966 Cadillac even though they generally share a 429-cubic-inch engine. This means that the crude 1966-67 California A.I.R. systems on both of our cars are each one-year-off implementations sold only on the West Coast. It should be no surprise that information on these orphan A.I.R. subsystems is hard to find.

One other possibility for your other small vacuum connection surplus is the Thermo Vacuum Switch (TVS). On my 67, one vacuum line ran from a small vacuum outlet on the lower-front of the (Quadrajet) carb to the fitting (labeled "C") on the TVS mounted on the top-left of the radiator. From the TVS's "D" fitting, a vacuum hose runs to the distributor. One more vacuum hose runs from the TVS's "MT" fitting to a vacuum fitting on the upper-front region of the carb.

Again, my Quadrajet differs from your Carter in many ways, so take my info with a huge grain of salt. Also, the vacuum routing in my car no longer follows the original plan. So I can't provide you with real-world before-and-after behaviors and symptoms.

Scan your manual for a diagram of the vacuum-hose routing. It might provide more clues.

Hopefully some bits of the color coding on your vacuum hoses remain. On an old Cadillac, the vacuum diagrams are as important as the wiring diagrams!
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 05:55:05 PM by 67_Eldo »

Offline Series75

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2018, 08:51:23 PM »
Ok as long as you are using that Carter, it will be good.   I'll check my Fltwd tomorrow and write back to you.  Sounds like you have everything you need,  Tom
1961 75 Series

Offline CadillacGirl_1966

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2018, 11:03:59 AM »
Thanks guys.

I did go hunting in the book and that 1 page where it talks about the AIR system I found some clues!

The Air bleed valve is attached to the rear insulator port (the small hose) and the large hose is attached to the rear of the carb. The problem I face with that is the air bleed fitting is WAY bigger than the port on the back of the carb. I imagine it wont look original but because there is only about 5 inches between the 2 fittings I am going to route the larger hose up and away so I have the space to reduce it down to the smaller size. I tried ordering a reducer but its not long enough and the sizes arent correct anyway.

I also discovered the fitting on the bottom of the air cleaner actually goes straight to the smog pump. I havent looked down in there to see what my smog pump even looks like but I imagine it's there since all the other AIR system hoses are connected to something.

It's not that I WANT my smog stuff to work. I want there to be no vacuum leaks. And I also, someday, would like to go to the cadillac grand nationals as a member and have her there to be judged. And I know the more "original" i keep her the better. I did have to plug up the heat tube in the intake manifold because I have and electric choke now, but thats easily fixed. In fact if anyone has pictures of how that looks let me know so I can keep them for reference.

The only other thing I am wondering about now is the L shaped gold fitting on the intake. The side goes to the valve on the back of the firewall, but the one that points up was capped off when I took it all apart. I haven't been able to find out where that goes to. Any ideas? I am going to cap it off again just not sure with what yet.

Online 67_Eldo

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2018, 12:30:00 PM »
At least the 1966-67 A.I.R. system is relatively simple compared to the smog jumbles that would really mess things up in the 70s. If you've got a CA car, it is better to fix it rather than try to remove it. Alas, my choices were complicated by non-Californians who owned the car after its newness wore off.

Keep re-reading the manual as well as looking at other useful sources of troubleshooting info (such as Cadillac Tim's Automatic Climate Control booklet). The vacuum system is hooked together in all sorts of interesting ways that transcend categories such as "Fuel" or "Air Conditioning" or "Brakes." For example (and assuming you have Automatic Climate Control), the aforementioned TVS uses vacuum to allow the heating/AC blower to work. Or, in another example, vacuum controls the release of the parking brake when the car is shifted into "Drive." Those darn vacuum hoses run everywhere!

My car will never be a show car (not with a roof that is one-third metal, one-third fiberglass, and one-third Bondo, held together with POR-15). So I've shut off as many vacuum-operated systems as I can and still have the car run. I'll eventually replace the vacuum actuators will electronic servos. That's not because the vacuum originals were bad but it's because I can find and handle electronic gizmos more easily that I can find new vacuum pieces. Also, I want to reserve as much vacuum as possible for the fundamental operations of pulling in fuel and helping the brake booster stop the car.

Good luck!

Offline CadillacGirl_1966

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2018, 04:31:37 PM »
This particular hearse was ordered from the funeral home bare bones. Sayers and Scovill was the top of the line coach in those days and the funeral home apparently could only JUST afford one. They got it completely bare, no options... no AC, no power anything, not a 3-way with an electric table.. They seemed to order cheapest S&S there was lol

So no I dont have any of that stuff. But there is an odd little valve thing attached to one of the ignition coil bolts that has 2 vacuum ports on it. I am really not sure what it does. It's blue (the valve and I am assuming it is a valve because my 85 lincoln has things that look just like it). I have not seen anything in the book about this. However I have also never seen anything (yet) in the book about the Carter smog items that are attached to the firewall next to the brake booster. I'll get some pic in a bit.

The next order of business is the wiring. I cant seem to figure out where the heck the positive wire from the starter has gone to. I don't remember taking any of that off.

Offline Series75

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2018, 05:05:24 PM »
Pic
1961 75 Series

Offline Series75

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2018, 05:07:04 PM »
2
1961 75 Series

Offline CadillacGirl_1966

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2018, 08:31:17 PM »
What do you use to connect the large fitting on the air bleed valve to the back of the carb? They are 2 different sizes? What is the wiring scheme on your ignition coil And on the transmission kickdown? I think I have the wires right o that but not 100% sure.

I also have a couple other wires that are hanging about. Where is your coolant temp sensor and what color wires are connected to it? What about the oil pressure sensor?

I have an orphan green wire, a black wire, two sets of black and yellow wires one set long and one short, a short black wire coming from the distributor and a dark green wire with a connector on it at the back of the engine by the transmission.


Online 67_Eldo

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2018, 10:02:23 PM »
I didn't realize you had a hearse. That changes everything! Or not.

In your manual, look for references to commercial chassis (or series 698) exceptions.

In some cases, Cadillac made choices for the commercial chassis configuration that differ from all the other Cadillacs (even the Fleetwood), air conditioning or not.

Offline CadillacGirl_1966

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2018, 10:57:55 PM »
Yeah I know, it's a real pain in the butt. There are a lot of differences.

The book is just not very specific in many spots. And for some reason I cant seem to find a wiring diagram for a 66 anywhere! I think I may have it right, but I dont know for sure just yet, I am still trying to find the location of the oil temperature sensor and figure out what the heck is going on with my coolant temp sensor that seems to have the wiring pigtail just completely missing. Which is really strange since I remember the temp sensor used to work..

I think there was a weird temp sensor a mechanic put on there many years go. Its a long black and long yellow wire attached to a flat piece by a company called Klixon. It was literally taped to my upper radiator hose. Maybe thats why my temp sensor worked and no longer does? Cant seem to find a Klixon replacement. I want to wire up the original but I dont know where I can buy the connector I need or how to attach them.

Summit racing has a temp sensor with a connector but I dont know how I would attach it.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/ado-g1852/applications/make/cadillac/year/1966

I also had to modify my throttle return spring today. I am not sure how it was attached before but I do know it wasnt what it shows in the book. And the spring was waaaaaaay too big. I thinkI fixed it. I seriously doubt this car will run as is, because I rebuilt the carb last year and it was my first time doing a carb. I highly doubt I did it right but you never know! If I get really lucky I might have her running this weekend. I really should drop and cean out the gas tank but do you think if I just put a ton of gas in there itll be ok? She hasnt run in about 2 years now.

Offline 35-709

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2018, 09:13:33 AM »
https://www.classiccarwiring.com/1966-cadillac-color-wiring-diagram/

You can also find the same thing on Amazon ---
https://www.amazon.com/1966-Cadillac-Color-Wiring-Diagram/dp/B002XQZPTU

IMO, you're on very thin ice with 2 y.o. gas.  I would try siphoning out as much of the old gas as possible and blowing out the line from the fuel pump back (use very light air pressure) and put in 5 gallons or so of ethanol free gas (if you can find it in your area) or even 100 LL aviation gas, plain old "deathanol" laced Hi-test will do.  Don't put a lot in the tank because you may end up having to drop it anyway.  Worth a shot.   
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 09:29:08 AM by 35-709 »
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Offline 35-709

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2018, 09:21:48 AM »
By the way --- after you empty the tank as much as possible, blow out the feed line (don't blow through the pump) and put in fresh gas --- disconnect the pump to carburetor line and run a temporary hose into a can and crank the engine until you see fresh fuel coming, then reconnect.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2018, 09:24:04 AM by 35-709 »
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1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2018, 09:46:18 AM »
FWIW on the temperature sensor.  I did not want to disturb my original temperature guage, so this is what I did. With water continuously flowing through the heater circuit, the sensor is exposed to water temperature within a few degrees of engine temp.
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Online 67_Eldo

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2018, 09:57:32 AM »
Unfortunately, I don't have the paper service manual. I bought the CD that contains scans of the original book. At the end of the "Chassis Electrical" section, there are a bunch of diagrams, covering the various models.

Since balancing an iPad on your fender while you're trying to read a tiny schematic doesn't work well, I printed out the diagrams -- which are sometimes split across multiple pages -- and taped them together so I had a better chance of following the routing better. Then I used a highlighting pen to emphasize the routes I was working on.

As far as fuel goes, I had a similar situation. After the car had been sitting for 10 years, the owner didn't do anything to clean out the fuel system. He drove is sporadically for a few years and then pretty much parked it for another couple of years until I came along.

After I spent big bucks to have the Q-Jet rebuilt, I asked the guys who did it if they had cleaned out the tank and fuel line. I wanted my now-pristine carb to remain pristine! They scratched their heads and said "nope." Yipes! Having struggled myself with Quadrajets back in the day, I did not want to take a chance.

So in addition to the new (standard) fuel filter that is built into the carb itself, I added an external fuel filter that has a clear bowl. If some crud breaks loose and blasts through the pipeline, I hope it will be caught and made visible here before it can do any mischief.

Offline 35-709

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2018, 11:02:59 AM »
CadillacGirl won't have a Q-Jet on her '66, unless someone changed the intake and the carb from a '67 which, it appears from her picture in an earlier post above, has not happened.  Excellent point though to change the filter before trying to start the engine and keep another one handy. 
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod

Offline CadillacGirl_1966

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Re: 1966 California smog vacuum issues
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2018, 05:37:48 PM »
I dont understand how to blow the lines out? There wont be that much gas in there. How do I do it if I dont have an air compressor?

I dont have a Q jet, it's a carter. So the only fuel filter is the one in the lines. I did buy a glass bowl but it doesnt have a connector on the top to attach it to the tang on the oil fill cap. Is it the wrong one? I attached a pic
 
Is there a reason I shouldnt disturb the old temp sensor? I wanted to buy a new one from summit racing but wasnt sure how to go about connecting it.

I am going to get a throw away fuel filter to use for a bit before I put the glass bowl one in. I dont like the clear plastic ones but itll have to do for now so I can see whats coming through. The metal ones are better I know but I want to be able to see. I did decide I am going to drop the tank and clean it out just need to figure out how to blow out the lines. So what if I just have it disconnected from the carb and crank it until fresh fuel starts coming out? Is there a reason I shouldnt push the old gas through the pump? There is gonna be old gas in the line from the pump to the carb isnt there?

 

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