Author Topic: Timing on Cadillac 500  (Read 422 times)

Offline Loveofclassics78

  • Posts: 47
  • Name: D. Chatman
Timing on Cadillac 500
« on: February 04, 2018, 10:01:28 AM »
Good morning! A quick question for you guys..

I have replaced my timing set and left the crank gear at 12 and the cam gear at 6.  Rotor should be turned to #4 terminal.  Got that part. I have the hub and crank pulley back on. Question is, with a stock crank pulley and stock timing pointer, with this setup, should the the notch already be at 0?  Or do I need to remark my pulley?  If I turn the crank so that mark is at 0, the keyway won't be at 7:00 anymore. And is this the factory notch?  Sorry for all the questions.  Thanks again.

Don
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 10:05:26 AM by Loveofclassics78 »

Offline TJ Hopland

  • Posts: 6950
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2018, 11:48:18 AM »
If it was me I would put a mark at zero just for fun but not worry about it.   You may not need it but it can't hurt you make one.  To really know for sure if the mark is correct you would need a piston stop.    Keep putting things back together and see what happens.    Where your mark landed could be within tolerance of eyeballing it so you may be fine.   Its also possible that in the last 40 years the pulley or timing mark has changed.  They didn't seem to keep the same alignment so you could get a combination that isn't accurate.   

This bit doesn't help you at this stage but may help others:

If you have a running engine and you are planning on doing something that even has the slightest chance what you are doing could effect timing take timing readings before you touch anything.  IF you are changing distributor parts you should have a hand vacuum pump gauge and take readings at various vacuum settings too.   Write it down in case some time passes before you get things back together.   That way if your car is running fine now and the timing is say 40 BTDC you put it back to that and you should be fine.   With this example if you set it to 8 like the sticker says you would be 32 off and not likely running too good or maybe at all.   

 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline Loveofclassics78

  • Posts: 47
  • Name: D. Chatman
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2018, 12:43:49 PM »
Thanks.  I just want to make sure that I have the correct marks when I set my timing.   I can use a little paint or something to make a new mark at the zero. Then I can set it with my timing light once I start back up. I'm wondering if I had set the timing up at #1 instead of #4, would the factory marks have lined up at 0?

Offline TJ Hopland

  • Posts: 6950
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2018, 12:54:22 PM »
1 and 4 would put the pulley mark in the same position.    6 and 7 would move it 180*.   5,3,2,8 would be 90* away. 

When you go to set it I would first try using the original mark.  If things don't seem to perform as expected then I would try using the new mark.   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline Bobby B

  • Posts: 1833
  • Mendham, New Jersey
  • Name: Bob Bender
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #4 on: February 04, 2018, 02:20:10 PM »
Good morning! A quick question for you guys..
I have replaced my timing set and left the crank gear at 12 and the cam gear at 6.  Rotor should be turned to #4 terminal.  Got that part. I have the hub and crank pulley back on. Question is, with a stock crank pulley and stock timing pointer, with this setup, should the the notch already be at 0?  Or do I need to remark my pulley?  If I turn the crank so that mark is at 0, the keyway won't be at 7:00 anymore. And is this the factory notch?  Sorry for all the questions. 

Don,
 Hi. This question is very confusing? Am I missing something here? When you installed your timing New Timing Chain/Gears and lined up the dots/ marks where they belong, did you put it through a few revolutions to make sure they lined up after rotating forward/ backward a few times before closing it up? Why wouldn't you be setting your base timing off your #1 cylinder@ TDC, which should be that 0 mark on your pointer, lined up with the notch on your pulley, which would correspond with your rotor pointing to the #1 tower on your cap. And put your finger in the spark plug hole while cranking to make sure your #1 cylinder is on the compression stroke, not 180 degrees out. Once you get it started, you can adjust the distributor to spec on the pointer. I'm not familiar with that engine, so maybe I'm way off base here as to where the engine's timed off of.
                                                                                                                        Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Offline TJ Hopland

  • Posts: 6950
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #5 on: February 04, 2018, 02:41:38 PM »
This is a continuation of an ongoing much longer thread so there quite a back story on how we got to this point.    Short summary is on this engine 4 is the 5th in the firing order so both 1 and 4 will be TDC at the same time.   As you mentioned you just need to know which is compression and which is on exhaust.    When he installed the distributor he was at 6 o clock on the cam sprocket which means 1 is exhaust and 4 is compression so rotor points to 4 terminal.    Yes you could give the crank a full turn and then 1 would be compression and 4 would be exhaust. 

I suspect he is within the official range of eyeball tolerances on the sprocket marks and all will be fine.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline Bobby B

  • Posts: 1833
  • Mendham, New Jersey
  • Name: Bob Bender
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #6 on: February 04, 2018, 04:06:14 PM »
This is a continuation of an ongoing much longer thread so there quite a back story on how we got to this point. 

TJ,
 Hi.Thanks for clarifying the situation. I guess it's been going on for awhile and I haven't jumped in on his posts. Seems like a simple issue.
                                                                                                                                                          Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Offline Loveofclassics78

  • Posts: 47
  • Name: D. Chatman
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2018, 04:52:35 PM »
Thanks for the replies. I will make the new mark on the pulley in addition to the old one and go from there.  I wonder was the stock timing mark on the pulley even notched correctly from the factory?

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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  • Name: Bruce Reynolds
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 04:58:32 PM »
I think you will find that the original mark is correct.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
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Offline Loveofclassics78

  • Posts: 47
  • Name: D. Chatman
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 06:28:04 PM »
I think you will find that the original mark is correct.

Bruce. >:D

My question would be, if the original mark was correct, even if I set the crank and cam gear at 12 and 6, respectively, should I rotate the crank so that the notch would be back on the zero?  I just feel like that if I rotate the crank, my setting at 12 and 6 would be ever so slightly off.  I maybe overthinking this, but I did just want to set it back to factory settings.  Makes it easier to maintenance in the future.  Took these pics before I closed up the front cover..
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 06:35:38 PM by Loveofclassics78 »

Offline Bobby B

  • Posts: 1833
  • Mendham, New Jersey
  • Name: Bob Bender
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2018, 06:40:16 PM »
Don,
 It's hard to see the dot on the New Crank gear in the 2nd picture. Are you sure it's lined up?
                                                                       Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2018, 06:52:34 PM »
The new marks look slightly out to my eyes.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Loveofclassics78

  • Posts: 47
  • Name: D. Chatman
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2018, 07:26:36 PM »
It's pretty much on.  I rotated the crank until the original timing set marks lined up at at 12 and 6 (crank and cam) removed the old set and put the new set in. All that lined up as showed in the manual.

Offline Bobby B

  • Posts: 1833
  • Mendham, New Jersey
  • Name: Bob Bender
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2018, 07:34:36 PM »
Then you're Golden....Just get that front damper notch lined up with the "0" mark on your timing pointer but making sure your #1 piston is on the compression stroke (not 180 degrees out), then make sure your distributor coincides with the #1 tower on the cap and fire it up. Have your distributor bolt loose enough to rotate it by hand and a timing light ready. Keep us posted. Good Luck!
                                                                                                     Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2018, 07:55:05 PM »
I would not rely on the original position as the chain would have stretched that much.   Looking at the old and the new, and the 12 degrees on the timing mark, it would indicate to me that the chain is stretched 12 degrees.

I would be aligning the new gears first, with the chain off, then take off the cam gear and install the chain.

Bruce >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Loveofclassics78

  • Posts: 47
  • Name: D. Chatman
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2018, 08:33:50 PM »
I would not rely on the original position as the chain would have stretched that much.   Looking at the old and the new, and the 12 degrees on the timing mark, it would indicate to me that the chain is stretched 12 degrees.

I would be aligning the new gears first, with the chain off, then take off the cam gear and install the chain.

Bruce >:D

I can attest to that old chain being stretched.  So what I did was mark the new spot with white paint just in case I have to use it, and rotated the crank the few degrees back to the factory notch. The keyway is a little above 7:00.  But I believe that I should be fine with setting the distributor rotor to the #4 terminal to set timing.
« Last Edit: February 04, 2018, 08:52:48 PM by Loveofclassics78 »

Offline Bobby B

  • Posts: 1833
  • Mendham, New Jersey
  • Name: Bob Bender
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2018, 08:57:56 PM »
I believe that I should be fine with setting the distributor rotor to the #4 terminal to set timing.

 ??? 
       Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Offline Glen

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Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2018, 12:13:15 AM »
The first thing I would do is make sure the #1 piston is at TDC by checking the piston.  Then see where the mark on the balancer is.   The outer part of the  balancer is mounted on rubber and can slip around after many years. 
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
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Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #18 on: February 05, 2018, 04:51:23 AM »
With the Cadillac 500, the timing mark is on the pulley, and not the harmonic balancer ring.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Loveofclassics78

  • Posts: 47
  • Name: D. Chatman
Re: Timing on Cadillac 500
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2018, 05:43:06 AM »
??? 
       Bobby

LOL. I have #4 in the firing position, Bobby. As shown from the manual.  Thanks for the advice everyone.  I think I should be ok. Just overthinking.  Trying to make this as smooth as possible.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2018, 06:06:39 AM by Loveofclassics78 »

 

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