Author Topic: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?  (Read 693 times)

Offline 76Caddy

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2018, 09:16:58 AM »
The Seville is a completely different car from the Nova. I once read somewhere the only part shared between them is the rear door hinges.

Thank You Mr. DeVirgilis, I was waiting on someone to make that point.  The Nova used an 111 inch wheelbase from 1968 thru 1979 whereas the Seville was 114.3.  Other than mechanical parts shared by all 5 divisions, there is NOTHING (body or interior) that will interchange between a Seville and a nova.

Tim
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Offline e.mason

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #21 on: February 12, 2018, 09:37:58 AM »
The Seville is a completely different car from the Nova. I once read somewhere the only part shared between them is the rear door hinges.

Keeping in mind, that GM is a business, and as such they try to cut costs as much as possible to increase profits.  One way is to have interchangeable parts.  Throughout the years they have used parts that have been interchangeable with all the divisions, such as windshields.  Remember when Olds used Chevy engines, and were hit with a lawsuit?
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Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #22 on: February 12, 2018, 10:00:00 AM »
Nobody disputes that. Merely pointing out the misconception that Nova and Seville are the same basic cars in different clothing. While that has been largely true for many GM cars in the past, it is not the case with the Seville and Nova.

Seville was designed and engineered from the ground up. To suggest it is a "tarted-up" Nova is just plain wrong. And for that matter, a 77-79 DeVille is no Impala either.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 10:07:42 AM by Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 »
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Offline BJM

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #23 on: February 12, 2018, 10:23:44 AM »
An interesting question, which i think is not about what mark was the standard, but what standards were a mark held to?

This would be my argument. The Standard changed. Cadillac in the 70's was not looking toward the future, and they got caught with their pants down.  Mercedes eclipsed them.  Their slogan "the Best or Nothing" tells it all.

Now, here we are several generations later and that's all history. Frankly I can easily collect the 79-85 Eldorado, the 80-85 Sevilles, and so on, but from a leadership standpoint, I would generally agree the 70's killed Cadillac. 

Fundementally, was it engineering that did the trick?  Or better put - the lack of it?  The 67-70 Eldorados are over the top engineering wise, which then underpin a world class design, interior and exterior.  Those Eldorados deliver performance in spades too, and had every luxury appointment available.  Mercedes had some nice cars, but nothing like that Eldorado and let's not forget, Cadillac built thousands of them.

I understand that Cadillac "luxury" in terms of the pillow soft seats were perceived as TSOTW, but they were not.  Mercedes and BMW seats are not crappy and hard.  Interiors were ergonomic, exteriors were sinewy and drawn over the chassis for tautness. 

I have owned a 1992 S600 V12 Mercedes and a 2000 S500.  I would not own a "similar" Cadillac, no way.  (I also owned a 1995 SL500)   OTOH, I am a big fan of the last gen Eldorados and Sevilles, almost pulling the trigger on a couple of them. 

But as for the discussion point of WHEN, I believe we are all in agreement that 1980 is the year.  Wow, how often does that happen!
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Offline 67_Eldo

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #24 on: February 12, 2018, 11:21:55 AM »
The Seville:

http://automotivemileposts.com/cadillac/seville/seville1976nova.html

Powered by an Oldsmobile 350.

It was a nice car!

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2018, 11:46:03 AM »
Eventually, it was determined that the platform used for the Chevrolet Nova, Pontiac Ventura, Oldsmobile Omega, and Buick Apollo four door sedans would be a close enough fit, although Cadillac would use very few stock parts from those assemblies on its new car, requiring almost everything to be designed from the ground up.

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Offline 76Caddy

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2018, 11:55:57 AM »
I believe we have gotten off the topic of this thread with the Seville.  As a Seville enthusiast, I just hate hearing it compared to a Nova. 

Tim
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Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #27 on: February 12, 2018, 12:01:12 PM »
Back in the day, I would say 1981 was the first model year Cadillac's prestige suffered its most significant setback up until that time due to the electronic problems they had. 

Now that 1981 problems are pretty much in the rearview mirror, so to speak, I would put it at 1982.

In any case, 1980 DeVille/Fleetwood with 368 4 bbl were every bit as good as their 7.0 liter predecessors.

 
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Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 12:20:32 PM »
But as for the discussion point of WHEN, I believe we are all in agreement that 1980 is the year.  Wow, how often does that happen!

Between this one and the other similar topic thread, I don;t think there is that much agreement on a specific year actually.  I would personally say it was before 1980 but also don't necessarily think 1980 represented a significant downturn for the brand.   Sales dipped in the late 1970s/early 1980s largely due to economic factors of the time but bounced back and were above 300,000 as late as 1986 and Cadillac was still far outselling main rival Lincoln during this time.

It was more the 1990s when Lincoln really started to gain on Cadillac as far as sales.  Thanks to the introduction of the Navigator, Lincoln outsold Cadillac for the first time in 1998.  Mercedes-Benz and Lexus would also each outsell Cadillac for the first time a year later.

If losing its position as the top selling luxury brand in the U.S. means anything in this otherwise largely subjective discussion, then perhaps 1998-99 would be when Cadillac stopped being the "standard" so to speak.

Offline 64CaddieLacky

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 04:52:13 PM »
I’d also agree that the 79’s being the last of the great ones ( not standard of the world however) simply based on the solid drivetrain of the 425 V8, comfortable, nice attractive interior, and still keeping the traditional Cadillac “Look”. Sure cosmetically the Broughams of the 80’s looked pretty much the same up until 92, but the late 70’s Cads  felt better put together.

Generally in the automotive world the 1980’s was not a very good time for cars, a lot of things were going on as far as experimentation goes. The complexities of 80’s Cadillacs with all the smog crap choked off power, overall performance and reliability in the 80’s more so than in the 70’s.

Although I love how my 94 Fleetwood drives and rides, but it doesn’t feel nor looks like a Cadillac on the inside. The styling is sorta Cadillacish from the rear with signature vertical tail lights, but from the side and front profile , it looks very bland and very generic.

The last Broughams in 92, especially the D’Elegance package are extremely handsome stylish cars with absolutely wonderful comfortable interiors. Cadillac really went on cost cutting bing in 93 by eliminating the fine detailed interiors of the 92 on down Broughams. It’s like they are completely different cars although the have the same under pinnings.

I would love to own a 79 Brougham or a 92 Brougham with the 5.7 350 TBI someday. I have too many cars at the moment but I am hopeful. 8)
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Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 05:14:59 PM »
You guys so down on 1980 are nuts. Anybody here actually ever own an '80 RWD? Lets have a show of hands.

Here is one 1980 previously owned by a CLC member. Came close to buying it. Sold on eBay for $12K and change. I managed to track down the buyer who told me he got "high twenties" for it.  Supposedly he refused $24K on the block at Mecum Las Vegas last November.

Been kicking myself ever since.

When is the last time a Tri 7 with 37,000 on the clock did that kind of money? A: Never.



https://car.mitula.us/detalle/1834/1910003507134495006/3/1/cadillac-deville-coupe-nevada

https://www.mecum.com/lots/LN1117-297685/1980-cadillac-coupe-deville/







« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 05:23:09 PM by Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 »
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Offline Bill Young

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2018, 06:33:25 PM »
For me Cadillac basically ended with the last of the 1992 Fleetwood Brougham 5.7 Litre cars. I know that there were significant models in between that either made the grade or did not and some would argue in favor of cars after that date. I am just stating , One Mans Opinion. However for sheer presence the Cadillac's of the 50's , 60's and 70's were the best all around cars ever built on the planet.
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Offline jdemerson

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2018, 02:03:25 PM »
As the author of the OP, let me add a few remarks to a very interesting and impressive string of comments.

The question was about the Cadillac brand and "TSOTW" more than about individual models. And it was about how  Cadillac was perceived in comparison to its peers at a given time. The "was perceived" part most certainly makes all this subjective. Yet somehow I think its more than just subjective to claim that Cadillac was the Standard in the generation 1950-53, and in the generation 1967-1970, as illustrations.

As Eric has noted, it's hard to pinpoint a particular year here. I chose 1979 as having continued greatness, and with some slipping after that. But I don't believe for a second that the 1980 Devilles and Fleetwoods weren't very fine models. I also think that 1979-80 Eldorados were first-rate. I'm less confident about the new 1980 Seville with the standard diesel. I know that digital fuel injection was introduced in 1980, and I simply don't know how big a breakthrough it was at the time.

I agree with others that the 1976-79 Seville was no Chevy Nova, and it was an important model for Cadillac in its day. A fine car and nice ones do seem to bring strong prices today.

I also agree that the 1977-79 Chevrolets, while very nice models, were not in a league with 1977-79 Devilles and Fleetwoods. (And I once went car shopping with an Uncle and picked out a 1977 Chevrolet Caprice, which served him very sell for around ten years.)

The original question stands: Was ANY make really The Standard of the World after 1980 or so?  I saw one vote for S-Class (and presumably MB as I explored above). I respect that folks on this message board prefer not to say much about other makes. But if the answer to the question is "probably not", then that makes Cadillac's stature from (at least) 1930 through 1979-80 all the more amazing and impressive!

John Emerson
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Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2018, 02:35:04 PM »
Speaking for myself, there is no substitute for a Cadillac car and there never will be. It is either in one's blood or it is not.

I know what a Ferrari, Rolls Royce, Mercedes, BMW are, and understand and appreciate the fine technological & engineering prowess that defines them. But given the choice, I would sooner take that 3x 1980 Coupe deVille (above) over any of them, all day, any day of the week. 

That is my Standard of the World, and that is all that matters to me.  8)
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Offline gkhashem

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2018, 05:25:50 PM »
Do not be so quick to lavish praise on a MB SL500 or any 1990s MB. From 1993-1997 they were using environmental friendly wiring where the wires outer covers would be biodegradable.

Well guess what they soon disintegrated and cost owners thousands of dollars to repair the harness. (about 8-10K)

Look it up stay away from these cars.
1959 Cadillac Coupe Deville
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Hardtop Sports Sedan
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1966 Cadillac Coupe Deville (Senior #861)
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Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #35 on: February 13, 2018, 05:57:58 PM »
Do not be so quick to lavish praise on a MB SL500 or any 1990s MB. From 1993-1997 they were using environmental friendly wiring where the wires outer covers would be biodegradable.

Well guess what they soon disintegrated and cost owners thousands of dollars to repair the harness. (about 8-10K)

Look it up stay away from these cars.

Nail hit on head - a friend went through exactly this issue with his (mid-90s) "dream car" SL500. To call it a nightmare would be an understatement. 
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Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #36 on: February 13, 2018, 06:29:43 PM »
Now, that IS planned obsolescence.

Hope we never see this on any Cadillac.   Or any car that I own.

Bruce. >:D
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Offline BJM

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2018, 07:48:01 AM »
You guys so down on 1980 are nuts. Anybody here actually ever own an '80 RWD? Lets have a show of hands.

Here is one 1980 previously owned by a CLC member. Came close to buying it. Sold on eBay for $12K and change. I managed to track down the buyer who told me he got "high twenties" for it.  Supposedly he refused $24K on the block at Mecum Las Vegas last November.


Eric
No one questions that Cadillac made some great cars after and in 1980. The topic has to do with company culture more that great cars.  By 1980, Mercedes was gearing up for several great decades.  I personally would love to own a 79-85 Eldorado Biarritz but in a topic I introduced on the 79-85 Eldorado nobody could agree on a perfect year for mechanics, all had flaws.  The Standard of the World leads, they don't follow.  Clearly Cadillac and GM were befuddled by the gas crisis in the 70's which has had a 4 + decade hangover.

I could list several collectible Cadillacs post 1980, but again not the point.  The black Coupe deVille you have a photo of is a phenomenal car sure, but put a Mercedes 450 up next to it and it's night and day.  You may not like the Mercedes and based on your posts I believe you do not, and that's fine, but there was a mass exodus in the 80's to Mercedes and BMW. 

Cadillac has never recovered and keeps trying to reinvent itself.  The SOTW should have come out with a "Northstar" like motor in the early 80's. Being the SOTW starts with engineering.  As nice as the 79-85 Eldorados are, and no one can argue the Eldorado-Riviera-Toronados sold like 125,000 a year for 7 model years, Cadillac laid an egg with the follow up, even though they were given a several year headstart to combat the Germans.  That's what I take away from SOTW concepts, benchmarking TO Cadillac, not the other way around. 

Again, I love the last gen Eldorados and Sevilles and believe Cadillac should have kept those names around rather go to the alphabet/numerical cars.  I would have flipped a big middle finger at the pundits who said cars should be alpha / numerical referenced.  They should have come out with NEW Eldorados and Sevilles! 

But that ship has sailed.   
Bryan J Moran
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Des Moines, Iowa
1968 Cadillac Eldorado

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2018, 08:33:25 AM »
The black Coupe deVille you have a photo of is a phenomenal car sure, but put a Mercedes 450 up next to it and it's night and day.

On that point, I couldn't agree more!  (For very different reasons, I suspect.  ;))

...but there was a mass exodus in the 80's to Mercedes and BMW.

Soon they will also get their turn if hasn't already. In the case of Mercedes Benz, many owners will grudgingly confess that brand's prestige/quality has also diminished considerably over the last 15 years or so.

On thing is for certain - the days of the "traditional" Cadillac are probably gone for good.






« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 10:22:21 AM by Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 »
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline 64CaddieLacky

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Re: Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2018, 05:57:13 PM »
This discussion has really influenced me to consider buying a 77-79 Fleetwood or a 92 Brougham D’Elegance. I like the exterior styling,  but I love the interiors even more. I truly believe that Cadillac Broughams of the late 70’s into the 80’s have one of the most attractive interiors Cadillac has made. All the chrome trim, nice little detailed crest and emblems and wood grain that are on the door panels and dash really give the interior class and beautiful style. I love the softly padded door panels and the seats. Sure they’re not the biggest Caddies nor the best performers, but they really made you feel like you were driving a Caddy.

I just sold my 94 Caddy Fleetwood yesterday, as much as I loved driving that car, I could never warm up to the super bland interior. Nothing compared to the 92 on down Broughams especially the D’Elegance which had one of the best seats of any car ever made. The quality slipped heavily I’ve noticed with my 94, everything from the body panel gaps, to the sheet metal thickness, to the chrome panels are all cheap feeling  vs the earlier Cadillacs that felt a lot better put together.

At least the 92 Brougham still has chrome metal door handles, still had the nice stainless chrome trimmings around the door glass and windshield. The doors felt more solid, the seats were way more comfortable. The leather quality was higher too and much more detailed with the button tuff D’Elegance seat cushions. My 94 Fleetwood Bro seats always felt too firm for my liking.

The grill is more attractive, including the rear end. Just an overall better looking, better put together Cadillac that looked nothing a Chevy or Buick. I would say GM was at its worst when it came to sharing the parts bin with Cadillac, Chev and Buick starting in 93 when they shared interior, exterior and its underpinnings with the D and B bodies.

All the doors look similar even the shape of the windshield, and quality of plastics went way down the drain.

In some respects I’m glad the car is gone. It was my daily for years but I honestly don’t think it ever was a “real” Cadillac in my book
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 06:20:26 PM by 64CaddieLacky »
1964 Sedan Deville
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville (Sold)
1968 Coupe Deville (Sold)
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