Ok, I have one or more bearings that have either spun out or are about to in my 1968 DeVille Convertible. 472 CI, overhauled in 2005. I had to have it towed home to avoid risking a complete catastrophe. >:(
What's more likely to have failed, rod or main bearings?
Now, what brand of bearings should I use when getting them replaced? And is there a way to tell if the existing bearings are standard size or .010 over. It was overhauled in 2005 and I can't remember if the crankshaft journals were turned down or not.
To speed things up, I'm thinking of getting a set of standard and .010 over and returning the set that doesn't fit.
Might as well have the front and rear seals and the oil pump gasket all replaced at the same time. And, possibly have the radiator re-cored to a more efficient core while it is out.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Every set of bearings I have replaced had a size stamped on the back side of the bearing shell, regardless of brand.
Are you planning of just replacing the bearings with the engine in the car?
Yes, I do not think the engine should have to come out. At least not according to the shop manual.
Any idea what caused the issue?
Have you done bearings in a car before? Even on a beater where you really don't care if its 'right' its a lot of messy work and there is always access issues where you can't see things or use the proper tools and procedures so the results are usually not the best.
If you spun a bearing the crank will need at least some clean up if not a full on machine job. I would also question the original setup, perhaps the clearances were not correct to start with or the caps got messed up?
Agreed, any damage to the crank will require pulling the engine, big issue here is what is the root cause.
Boy, I have never heard of anyone being able to diagnose a spun bearing without pulling the engine out. A spun bearing can be a result of a seizure, and the bearing locating lugs letting go within the bearing cap/base, and simply rotating without lubrication, and burning the metal, after melting off the actual soft part of the bearing shell.
Now, as for repair, the Engine will definitely have to come out, and in a lot of cases, a Crankshaft that has experienced a spun bearing, will have to be replaced as it could be bent or even cracked. In the case of a connecting rod bearing, the rod will need to be replaced, and in the event of it being a main bearing, possible block replacement.
Not to mention the internal cleaning out that will need to be done
Bruce. >:D
The engine was overhauled in 2005. The cause, unknown at present, but probably getting too hot too many times. Lower probability is improper installation back in 2005, Another (low) possibility is a bad bearing to begin with. I had a bad wheel bearing cause a melted front axle back in 2006. That took 1 year to manifest itself.
I don't have the knowledge, tools or facilities to do this myself. so it will have to be done at a local shop.
I'd still like some suggestions on bearing brands to get.
It might not be the brand that is best, but where they source the parts that go into the boxes with the brand name on them these days.
Federal Mogul and Michigan 77 are good, but as I haven't purchased many for years, I cannot advise further.
But, in all cases, it is the fitting and clearances that are the causes of bearing life, plus good oil supply. The best bearings will fail if not fitted correctly.
Bruce. >:D
From my own experience, I'd much rather have a good used engine, than a
just rebuilt one. Bruce Roe
Quote from: bcroe on May 06, 2017, 08:39:05 PM
From my own experience, I'd much rather have a good used engine, than a
just rebuilt one. Bruce Roe
Bruce, it is the original engine and I'm going to keep it. The car still has, going from front to back, the original radiator tanks, all the original cast iron except for the water pump, the original transmission, drive shaft and complete rear axle assembly including control arms.
MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties) --- www.500cid.com --- will have a complete overhaul kit or any individual parts you need for your engine. They are specialists in the 472/500/425 building business. If it were mine I would pull it and ship it to them, shipping is not that bad and you will be getting the best, IMO. They supplied the overhaul parts for my '71 472 in Big Red and did the complete overhaul on the '73 472 in my (now sold) Caribou. They will build you a stocker or anything from mild to wild, a call to them can't hurt.
Mike,
Call MTS in CA on Monday, as they are the expert on this 472/500/425/368 engine. I have purchase parts form them and this is all they do. Tell them the parts you want and they will recommend a choice of brands depending upon your situation.
To me Bruce is right, the engine needs to be pulled to be sure what went wrong and whatever caused it is cured. How did you determine/diagnose the problem? If engine got too hot too many times, suggest the 4 row radiator core and the commercial chassis radiator fan.
With engine out of car by you , and you taking it to a shop, then you can clean up if needed, the engine bay and finish any of those might as wells. Leaving it with no engine in your garage could be better than taking it to a shop because they may keep it outside for three weeks.
I've been looking at MTS (500cid.com). I'll probably get what I need from them.
There is No need to ship the engine across the country for some bearing work. It was completely gone through in 2005. The car gets up to 100 or higher easily, I had at 75 last week. However, after reading, I agree that the engine might need to be pulled. I'll have to rent a hoist to do it or have a shop do it.
That said, I'm pretty sure that even the crank can be removed with the engine still in the car. PPs 6-104 & 6-105 confirm this, although the transmission has to be separated. That's much easier than taking the engine out.
It will be a condition of my bringing it anywhere that it be kept Inside at all times while being worked on. And it shouldn't be that long if I order the bearing sets, gaskets, etc. ahead of time.
As for why it happened, I still think it was most likely being ran too hot too many times. I've posted about the car getting hot while stuck in traffic here in FL. I already have a 4 core in it, but the radiator shop mentioned a higher efficiency cooler, and I will noy install a transmission cooler as well. I guess one time too many. We'll find out.
The only reason bearings will fail is:
(1) Lack of Lubrication.
(2) Clearances too tight.
(3) Oil too thick, or too thin.
It is all about preparation, and maintenance.
Bearings spin simply because the crankshaft journal tries to hold onto the bearing shell and it then comes loose inside the cap. By the time the engine is turned off, the damage has been done.
Over-revving also creates problems, but it is usually the overheatingthat expands the pistons within the bore, and tightens them up, and the crankshaft is trying to pull the pistons down, and push them up, and this in itself strains the Rod Bearings.
Bruce. >:D
Pulling an engine for serious work will avoid a lot of frustration, dirt, and
skin knocked off. May not take any longer either.
If the problem seems to be about overheating, you might want to change
to synthetic oil, with much better high temp tolerance. There are some
nearly custom built radiators available with extra capacity, compared to
a lot of imported "reduced tubes & fins" stuff. Mine cost the better part
of a kilobuck, worth it. Of course a good temp gauge is essential. A trans
or oil cooler cooler will get rid of some more heat. Clutching fans, shrouds,
and overflow bottles need to be in good order. Most of my 60s cars had to
be upgraded to 70s standards so I could keep driving them in all conditions
trouble free.
One car here got a couple electric fans in front of the radiator, which were
only used for hot, slow traffic conditions. Bruce Roe
I saw the question asked, but did not see an answer. How did you diagnose a spun bearing? Sorry if i missed the answer.
I know you say there is no need to pull the engine because it was completely gone thru in 2005........ however the engine failed.
Don't forget, these cars sat in traffic when they were new and didn't break. Something is going on in there.
At a minimum you need to strain your oil thu a piece of cheesecloth and cut open the filter to check for metal.
If the engine spun a bearing, it is making metal. There is absolutely no way you can get all the metal out of the engine with it still in the car. If 1 piece of metal is blocking 1 passage, you end up doing this again. If there are microscopic pieces of metal in there, it gets under a bearing and acts like sandpaper-and you do this again. If a piece of metal jams the oil pump pressure bypass open you have low oil pressure-and you do this again.
Now, I am by no means an expert. However I managed to pull the engine out of my 70. It really isn't that bad of a job, and I would do it again.
I tend to be blunt at times so no offence/frustration intended.
Jeff
Spun bearings happen very quickly.
This engine damage happened during a race, and by the time it was turned off, it was too late.
The second picture shows the heat required to discolour the connecting rod, but just before it turned into the first picture, or the last one. At least in this case, the $4,500.00 billet crankshaft was salvageable, for street use.
Bruce. >:D
PS. I didn't build the engine, but got some very nice parts to build for a future project.
I'm pretty sure it's a bearing problem because there is a LOUD metal on metal rapping sound coming from the block. It runs smoothly except for this rapping. I'm almost certain it's a bearing(s). Not sure if its spun out, but I'm not running it more to find out, except to get it out of the garage and onto a tow truck.
Mike,
You're fooling yourself if you think it's just a spun bearing. Like others pointed out here, there's more going on. Spun bearings are usually due to the reasons Bruce stated above. Lack of Lubrication, running at high speeds while low on oil, faulty oil pump, lack of pressure/oil starvation due to excessive clearances on a rebuild, crank not true or was never checked uring assembly, bearings just slapped in there out of the box without checking, etc, etc., etc. There are rebuilds, and then there are rebuilds, and it has nothing to do with the price. One little overlooked step in the rebuild most likely got you where you are now. Motor needs to come out and some detective work is needed. I've never seen any good come out of replacing one internal part in an engine without digging deeper into the cause.
Bobby
Mike,
Engine crane - back around 2010 I bought one that folds up (only way to go), and an engine stand (you will need both). IT was surprisingly affordable, the crane was under $225 and the stand was under $100. Be sure and get the dimensions, because my crane just barely had a long enough boom, and our cars are similar in dimension.
Also, your one post mentioned something about a trans cooler, make sure that is operational, as heat is a huge enemy to the trans.
My red 1970 DVC engine was rebuilt just before I bought in 2005, and have driven it over 40k miles since then. The car was parked back in early 2000's because head were bad then it was purchased and restored including engine rebuild by the owner who sold it to me. I had all the receipts. It was done by a very reputable machine shop here in the area (yes I write how terrible they all can be), and their boring and engine work is well respected. However, since heads were cracked they were replaced with used and no valve job and the carb was not done correctly. Eventually I had to do the valve job, and the carb had to be rebuilt in a few weeks. Any history or receipts you can dig up may give you some clue to help diagnose this problem.
BTW 75 mph is nothing for these cars and was routine driving back in 1970 and for me today (speed limit 70mph). There is a tach in my Caddy hidden in glove box and with a 2.93 rear diff, 70 mph is in the mid 2000 rpm as I remember. Engine damage should not have resulted due to highway travel. Fastest I traveled was 90 mph in a caravan of cars in NC traveling on 95 N from the 2007 GN in GA. While it was not any big deal the gas mileage of 14mpg driving normal 70mph, dropped to about 8 mpg. Made great time though.
If you are considering pulling the engine yourself look on Craigs List for a hoist and stand. Those are the type of tools people buy, use once, then sell off. Unless you are the guy that bought them new you can usually sell them on to the next guy for what you paid. You do need to watch the quality, get the heaviest duty stuff you can find. These engines are heavier than the average engine. On the hoist an unusual issue with these cars is the engine is pretty far back from the front bumper so you have to extend the boom which greatly reduces the lifting capacity and your safety margin.
I wonder if his builder didn't check the oil pump? I don't know if they finally corrected the issue now but for many years Melling was the only supplier and they had a known defect that caused a valve to stick and bleed off all the oil pressure. The bore just needed to be finished a little deeper which was fairly easy to do but you had to know to check it. Easy way around this issue is to buy it from a vendor like MTS that checks every one to make sure its right.
Here is a bearing out of my motor that had about 1000 miles on it when the oil pump sized on the highway. It ran for less than a minute without oil. This was the worst bearing which wasn't too horrible but even with that minor wear I was concerned about the crank. I brought the crank back to the machine shop for a check and I think all it needed was a polish so it may have been alright but I wanted to be sure.
(https://forums.cadillaclasalle.club/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi148.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fs35%2F73eldo%2FCadillac%2FIMG00589.jpg&hash=1645ecd596b7eff166960bbefbb54caa2c814d4f) (http://s148.photobucket.com/user/73eldo/media/Cadillac/IMG00589.jpg.html)
I guess we'll see what happened when the engine comes out. I'll dig out the old receipts to try and get a mileage figure from when it was overhauled in 2005, so I can see how many miles I drove it since then.
Suggest you pull the motor, put it on a pallet and send it to MTS, let them rebuild it. They'll boil the block out, check everything, assemble it and pallet it back. They are the 425, 472, 500 experts.
Marty was the main tech guy there and co-owner with brother Paul. Marty died about 2 years ago. Pauls running the business now. When I did mine (2 yrs ago) I drove out there to meet him. He had a local machine shop do all that work, then he assembled everything from there. From time to time, he'd hire some add'l help, not sure if they assist w/ assembly or not. I imagine (but not sure) the machine shop does the machining and the assembly now.
Sounds like you'll be calling them, let us know how it goes.
The other cadillac engine specialist is Cadco in New Mexico.
Well said by all of you. I have overhauled too many engines in my life to mess with spot fixes. If it were mine I would have the engine out, crank bore line honed and block deck checked to be sure it is square and straight to the crank bore. I would have the rods checked for straightness and bore size of the big end. I would also do a thorough rebuild on the heads. All of this because you say it has been overheated several times.
Please go the extra mile to pull the engine. I know, it is a pain, done it too many times. You will be much happier you did. The guys have given you great advice.
And when hoisting the engine, the lift arm will be fully extended to reach the engine so be careful when the engine is up high. I ususally roll the car backwards because most engine lifts do not roll too easily with the arm fully extended with the engine load on it. And finally, good luck. Larry
Quote from: TJ Hopland on May 07, 2017, 09:29:07 AM
You do need to watch the quality, get the heaviest duty stuff you can find. These engines are heavier than the average engine. On the hoist an unusual issue with these cars is the engine is pretty far back from the front bumper so you have to extend the boom which greatly reduces the lifting capacity and your safety margin.
This is just the reason I made my own. I built mine with Cadillacs in mind, plus used screw jacks as the hoisting medium as hydraulics are too "bouncy" when lowering, and either too much or too less when trying to position what is being moved.
Plus, I made mine so that it would actually fit under the car and the jib long enough to reach back further than needed as I attached a small hand winch to assist in raising and lowering the transmission when this is attached for other applications. As can be seen, I have a height problem in my garage, as it is under the house, whereas my previous garage was sufficiently high enough to have a beam and traveller with endless chain. Handy having stuff lying around that can be pressed into service.
The Cadillac engine (472-500-524) is actually lighter than a BBC. I have also used this hoist for removing a '60 Cadillac engine and transmission, so it does hold weight.
Bruce. >:D
It took a lot of talent to produce a weld on the post to base of Bruce's crane - it has no cross bracing - the moment is tremendous - very nice job. I would not attempt it unless had a lot of practice, so do not recommend that you make your own Mike unless you are accomplished at this type of work. I bought a standard one out of Harbor Freight or something like that and it was decent enough to manage the job. It really comes in handy for replacing engine mounts, raising engine to remove pan to change rear main seal and etc. Also loaded a 1,200lb safe into my pick up truck with it too, threw the crane in the truck and unloaded it with that too after arrival at my destination.
Of course the trans needs a support while the engine is unhooked. I use a
couple 6' pieces of angle bolted together with a 3/8" slot between. A couple
threaded hooks go through the slot into the frame on each side, tighten the
nuts with a block of wood between it and the trans pan.
That is sufficient for some engines, but with no rear supports on the Cad
engine, a second support is used there. Bruce Roe
I wish I was that good a welder, but alas, I am not.
I did brace it when I had to do the Cadillac work. 7/16" thick, 4" wide, and wraps under the cross beam. A bit of an overkill, but I do value my life.
Bruce. >:D
PS. Oh, and the front rollers are converted floor jack front wheels, paired and sit within the square tubing. Not much weight on the rear castors, which are also from the rear of a floor jack.
PPS. The front rollers are not square in the legs, but angled to allow the unit to run true when moved around the garage.
I'm going to have it pulled. I can't do it myself. No help available, hood has to come off, no garage space and no tools / equipment to hoist it up. I will call MTS and try to get some advice. I'm still not sure I want to send it to them though. That's 3,000 miles shipping of a very heavy engine.
It it was not caused by long term running too hot, then it might have been low oil pressure, or a combination. The light never came on while it was running and it functions correctly, so I'm not sure if pressure was marginal or not. I think a new oil pump setup is in order as well as well as a gauge set to monitor it.
It was only overhauled once, taken out, completely torn down and rebuilt. That was in 205, maybe 20-30,000 miles ago, if that. I'm not sure if oil pump was replaced though. If it was put back together wrong, or bearings improperly fitted, I don't see how it would have lasted this long. The rattle sound first occurred about 6 months ago, but it was not loud, not easily discerned unless top was down and no other traffic. But I haven't used it much since then either. We'll find out what happened.
Wondering here, if it still had oil pressure when you shut it down for the
noise? If so it could be a cracked piston. Bruce Roe
I had to drive it a few miles. And then had to move it a bit to get on the tow truck and then to get it back in my garage. No oil light - EVER, but pressure might have been marginal all this time..... Talking with some engine shops today and tomorrow.
Please describe the rattling sound you heard. Was it a rattle like a piece of loose metal or was it more of a clunk?
Do you think it came from the top of the engine or down low? Did it start to run badly like it lost a cylinder??
Have a hunch and just thinking outloud.
Jeff
Guess pulling the plugs and doing a compression test could help. Bruce Roe
Yes indeed , "Cadillac". "LOUD metal on metal rapping sound" is a relative term , and subjective by its nature. Before you go yanking this mill , get someone very experienced to properly diagnose the problem. Progressively louder metal on metal rapping sounds can be something simple. In almost 60 years of Cadillac driving , I have had a slightly loose exhaust manifold make a rapping sound. Also a loose crankshaft damper. I certainly hope you wil have an easy outcome , my brother. For some strange reason , I have a particular respect for guys with my same first name. - Cadlillac Carl
P.S. : (Speaking of respect) Also take the advice of Bruce and others here. Show respect for your machinery and finances by using full synthetic (Mobil 1 or better) , oil , if not already enjoying this economical protection. Follow owners manual for hot weather viscosity. - CC
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on May 08, 2017, 12:48:59 PM
I'm going to have it pulled. I can't do it myself. No help available, hood has to come off, no garage space and no tools / equipment to hoist it up.
snip.
Is it time to call in favors from some of the local club members to assist? Maybe you've already asked around for help?
It doesn't feel like it lost a cylinder. I pulled the valve covers - those things were like welded on to the heads. Everything looks OK there. A couple rocker arms would twist ever so slightly when their valve was closed, but when I bumped the engine, those were nice and tight. No thick sludge anywhere either. Pretty clean actually.
I connected up that PITA throttle curve grommet / anchor, that took forever, but that is not the source of the rattle. It was on the trans cover and could have been making a rattle, but nope.
No loose bolts that I could see or feel.
The rattle is loud and sharp, but intermittent at idle. As soon as you give it some gas to move, it becomes more constant. The shop that does my AC and did the engine 12 years ago said if it wasn't a loose pushrod / rocker arm then it was most likely a bearing, and most likely a rod bearing.
So I'm looking at probably 2 new connecting rods, a full bearing set and probably a new crank as well. Plus a new oil pump. I don't think anything up top is wrong - unless detonation caused a blown piston, but I should be able to feel that as in a rough running engine. The heads will come off to check this as well.
Has anyone shipped a 472 / 500 engine over 2,000 miles? What does it cost? That will be a large determining factor as to whether it gets shipped off to MTS or not.
Ok.
I broke a rocker arm retaining clip and it caused a rattle but it also lost the cylinder when the rocker came off. A few people told me it was a bad bearing too until I found that.
I was hoping it was the same for you
Shoot.
Jeff
I have not done it myself with MTS but have read they have made pretty good deals with freight companies so the freight isn't bad.
Quote from: Jeff Rose CLC #28373 on May 09, 2017, 11:04:28 PM
Ok.
I broke a rocker arm retaining clip and it caused a rattle but it also lost the cylinder when the rocker came off. A few people told me it was a bad bearing too until I found that.
I was hoping it was the same for you
Shoot.
Jeff
So was I, So was I... :(
As I remember, MTS will make the arrangements to pick up your engine and can give you a quote. By the way, they ship their engines upside down on a pallet with the valve covers each resting on a thick foam rubber pad. Much easier and much more stable if you do the same rather than building a crate for it, of course make sure the engine is well drained. :)
I'll look later when I have more time but pretty sure I did not take a picture of mine when it arrived from MTS.
Are you sure your recently replaced starter is not making contact with the flywheel somehow while the engine is running? Might not hurt to pull it and take a look!
How about sending off an oil sample for analysis to see if there is bearing material in the oil?
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 10, 2017, 07:44:21 AM
Are you sure your recently replaced starter is not making contact with the flywheel somehow while the engine is running? Might not hurt to pull it and take a look!
How about sending off an oil sample for analysis to see if there is bearing material in the oil?
I will check that tonight or tomorrow, but I highly doubt it.
I'm looking at a engine pull and tear down...
Have you thought about turning the engine by hand to see if you are able to determine where the noise may be coming from or if there is a spot that hangs up?
Shouldn't hurt anything to turn by hand. You are planning on a teardown anyway.
Jeff
This is how I remember it.....
Yup, thass it.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on May 10, 2017, 03:18:22 PM
I will check that tonight or tomorrow, but I highly doubt it.
I'm looking at a engine pull and tear down...
Maybe you'll get lucky. My first car was a midsize Ford LTD that the flywheel cracked on and was hitting the bell housing and starter. My dad and I were convinced the bottom end of the engine was coming apart from all the noise. We pulled the engine from the parts car and brought it for the swap. When the mechanic unfolded the transmission to take the engine out, he found the flywheel hanging on by the thread. 2 hours later the car was back on the road.
Start simple first. Since this was the last area touched on your car and can make and similar sound, I'm hoping you get lucky and that's all it is.
Quote from: chrisntam on May 10, 2017, 05:12:43 PM
This is how I remember it.....
Oooh. Nice and shiny. It's a work of art.
Flywheel ? Hmmmmm......... Cracked flex plate ? "Cadillac" , you need an expert diagnosis or two before ripping things apart based on assumption. Ever noticed how assumptions can lead to trouble ? You have got some very good advice here. You will feel like a Jerkus Maximus if you assume the worst , act on it , and find out it was something else/simple. I hope it does not involve major surgery , but , hey : if so , please consider having MTS make a more modern mill out of that too high compression anachronism. Decompress/cam it for 91 octane "moonshine". Then you can drive it as you like it without risking breaking it. - Cadillac
Any updates on this topic? Thanks.
Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 10, 2017, 08:13:25 PM
Maybe you'll get lucky. My first car was a midsize Ford LTD that the flywheel cracked on and was hitting the bell housing and starter. <SNIP>
^^This! Cadillacs are notorious for cracking the flexplate, ESPECIALLY replacement flexplates!! If the flywheel was replaced, or might have been replaced, when the engine was rebuilt, I'd pull the torque converter cover and start checking the flywheel for cracks. A cracked flywheel can make a nasty racket.
Good luck.
It was a nearly worn out rod bearing. More on it later when I get around to "the rest of the story" You guys will not believe this.
Enlighten us.....
And, with what caused my rebuild and the issues after, I will believe anything.
Jeff
Not unbelievable, just very unfathomable. Maybe this weekend i'll be putting up the info and pictures. I need to get a better picture of the rod journal for # 6 first.
OK, here's what we found and why it happened.
First, I need to remind everyone that here in Florida, it's ALWAYS hot AND humid. When people ask about the weather I tell them that is 90-95F nearly Every day with very high humidity. And except for a few weeks in Jan-Feb, that's pretty much true.
I had the engine overhauled in spring 2005, and had the front brakes converted to disc. The right side either had a defective bearing or an improperly lubricated bearing, because it melted the axle on the way back from Old town in late April 2006. The axle actually broke and the only thing holding everything together was the caliper backing plate.
I decided to have to car's body fully stripped, all the rust taken out, repainted, etc, since I was going back to the desert the following month. I kept getting re-deployed and the car took some 6 years to get completed. I finally got it back one week before the GN in St Augustine in 2012. (and I went back to the desert the following month). During that time the car moved around the shop but I don't think it ever got fully up to operating temp. I don't know if that caused what happened or not but it might have.
After I got back in2013 I went about re-repairing things that went bad from 2006-13, but I never could get to run cool in heavy traffic. I've posted about this before, no need to bring it up here, except to state that at times the gauge was up over 3/4, but the buzzer never went off.
Then I got the machine gun sound (it really did sound like that, and I think I can post a wav file once I strip it off the 32MB video I took) in May and basically didn't do anything until late Aug. I checked the top side, all ok, bo loose bolts in intake , heads or exhaust, so it had to be internal.
Well, this is what the bottom of the intake looked like when they got it apart:
That's not oil, but rust beads (with some oil).
Here's the intake manifold gasket:
The shop owner told me that the rear rubber sealer strip was pretty much disintegrated from heat, etc.
You did notice the nice fist sized hole in the cookie sheet, didn't you?
Well all that "stuff" had to go somewhere and it went right down into the inside of the block. Here is a pic of the pickup tube, AFTER it was most of the way cleaned up:
I will finish cleaning and will re-use this pickup, because it is not damaged.
I have never seen an intake pan as damaged as that one. But, would have to do with the engine use as stated, not getting sufficiently warm enough to boil off any condensation that accumulated.
As it rusted away, the corrosion would have become lodged in the oil filter, until the large piece fell off.
Bruce. >:D
Evidently a lot of that "stuff" got past the screen (it's not that fine grained of a screen) and probably tore through the paper elements of the filter.
Here is the result on the crankshaft and the rod bearings:
Notice the spun out bearing is almost paper thin.
Amazingly the adjacent rod for # 5 is OK, and all the pistons are OK except for #6 which "mushroomed" at the top from hitting the head (very tight tolerances in this engine).
The crank is actually re-build-able using thermal laser welding, which I will do, but I bought one from RocklAuto (I think I got the LAST crank available for this engine). I will have it locally rebuilt and polished to .020 under. I can't have it done to .010, because even the other journals are scored slightly. I could done to original size, but it would be VERY expensive because All the journals would have to be thermal laser welded.
The heads are fine, as is the camshaft and everything else. Very little carbon, mostly on the piston sides between the compression rings and the oil control ring. The oil pan was clean - no sludge. The upper valves and rockers were very clean as well. I got the rods re-conditioned and bought a set of 8 rods, I also got new ARP rod bolts, main bearing studs and head studs for re-assembly. Valve guide seals were shot, but the FelPro full gasket kit comes with 16 quality seals.
The heads are done, waiting on that one replacement piston and then it can be re-assembled. I have 6 cans of the Hirsch dark blue engine paint.
The intake is getting ceramic / powder coated on the bottom and we'll spray the top of the intake gasket cookie sheet with that copper spray to prevent this from happening again. The shop is going to use hi-temp silicone sealant of the ends of the intake gasket to prevent a seal failure in the future.
I'm also putting a 70s 7 blade no clutch fan in and am having a more efficient core put in the radiator. I'm getting the Derale TH400 ventilated transmission pan and a Derale stacked plate transmission oil cooler (and possibly an engine oil cooler as well) to try to keep things cooler.
I replaced a couple of worn out fuel and transmission lines as well as well as the motor mounts and upper control arm bushings.
It should run and drive very nice when its finished.
The good news is (as if there is any good news in this) is that it will cost less than replacing my fence which hurricane Irma blew down!?!?!
So now you have "the Rest of the story!"
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 01, 2017, 08:18:55 PM
I have never seen an intake pan as damaged as that one. But, would have to do with the engine use as stated, not getting sufficiently warm enough to boil off any condensation that accumulated.
As it rusted away, the corrosion would have become lodged in the oil filter, until the large piece fell off.
Bruce. >:D
I'm going to bring it as a show and tell to my next regional meeting in Oct . :P
Regardless of how it happened, it looks like there was so much debris in the bottom of the pan that it clogged the pick-up and starved the bearings of oil. I doubt the rebuild was bad. More like, what happened to the intake manifold valley area (pan), that caused it to disintegrate like that :-\ :-\ :-\......
Bobby
Yeah, what was the cause of the hole in the valley pan?
It looks like it rusted/deteriorated? It's aluminum right? It shouldn't rust.
Is it because the motor was run for short periods and not fully warmed up and condensation formed?
The fel pro gasket/pans I have dealt with are more steel like than aluminum.
Interesting story / chain of events / luck ....... I have had similar but not quite that bad of experiences. Drove my 73 for many years and miles with little more than a tune up. Decided it was time to do things right and spent a lot of time and money. Not sure if I am really better off now or not.
Quote from: chrisntam on October 01, 2017, 09:41:10 PM
Yeah, what was the cause of the hole in the valley pan?
It looks like it rusted/deteriorated? It's aluminum right? It shouldn't rust.
Is it because the motor was run for short periods and not fully warmed up and condensation formed?
The cause was that somehow moisture got into the area between the bottom of the intake manifold and the intake manifold gasket (valley pan / cookie sheet, whatever you want to call it). That moisture condensed on the bottom of the intake manifold and eventually caused it to rust (look at the photos at the top of today's posts). That rust and / or some too high heat burned a BIG hole in the intake manifold gasket, and all that junk went straight into the engine.
If the engine was starved of oil I'd have some severe wear on the valves and cylinder walls - not so. And all the crank journals would have been worn thin. Bits of metallic grit got past the oil filter and ate up the #6 rod bearing and journal. All the other journals have marks but none are worn like that one. I'll post a couple more pics of the crank when I get it from the shop. I have to wait for the new one to get installed so it can go in the box. The thing weighs over 83 pounds, and I'm not 25 yrs old anymore...
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on October 01, 2017, 10:23:48 PM
snip....
The thing weighs over 83 pounds, and I'm not 25 yrs old anymore...
+1
It's not as easy as it once was or as easy as I remember it being....
The cause of spun bearings is simply clearances being too tight, and the oil "Grabbing" the thing that can slip the easiest, and that is the bearing shells, and the rest is history.
Bruce. >:D
Mike,
I would look VERY carefully at the surfaces of the intake manifold and the cylinder heads at the intake mounting surface. I would also look for cracks in the intake. Something is leaking to allow water to get in. In a couple of the photos it looks like ths same "goo" that you show under the intake is also in the center two ports of the manifold.
Greg Surfas
Well,
Your engine story beats my engine story.
Great find and thanks for the info.
Jeff
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on October 02, 2017, 12:04:48 AM
Mike,
I would look VERY carefully at the surfaces of the intake manifold and the cylinder heads at the intake mounting surface. I would also look for cracks in the intake. Something is leaking to allow water to get in. In a couple of the photos it looks like ths same "goo" that you show under the intake is also in the center two ports of the manifold.
Greg Surfas
Greg, the heads are fine. The intake is being cleaned and coated. The rubber end seals are what failed. We're using silicone now. The center two ports are exhaust crossover. Those can get moisture from running the engine and not getting up to full temp, but there was no evidence of any gasket failure between any ports.
So the theory is that water somehow ran down the 'failed' rubber ends of the intake and pooled in the intake pan/gasket? Where did the water come from? There isn't a coolant passage in these intakes like many other engines have.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on October 02, 2017, 12:29:56 PM
So the theory is that water somehow ran down the 'failed' rubber ends of the intake and pooled in the intake pan/gasket? Where did the water come from? There isn't a coolant passage in these intakes like many other engines have.
Not water - moisture in the air. Read my initial post from yesterday.
Florida
90-95F every day
90% or higher humidity every day
If the seals went bad, then over time (6-12 years) this could definitely happen, and it did.
So sorry to hear this. I would be interested to know if you cut the oil filter apart?
I once had a fresh rebuild drop a valve seat and before I could turn the engine off it scattered throughout. Total loss.
Best of luck to you. Sounds like you are on the road to fixing several things tool Larry
Quote from: cadman56 on October 02, 2017, 04:58:07 PM
So sorry to hear this. I would be interested to know if you cut the oil filter apart?
I once had a fresh rebuild drop a valve seat and before I could turn the engine off it scattered throughout. Total loss.
Best of luck to you. Sounds like you are on the road to fixing several things tool Larry
It's been 12 years, probably 10-15 oil changes in that time. I don't know when the hole was made in the intake gasket. By the time we drained the oil this time the damage had been done. I will however, try to inspect the oil filter if it hasn't been tossed.
Waiting on 1 piston (# 6 of course, it mushroomed against the head). and it might get re-assembled this week.
Mike,
With all due respects, if the china rail (end seals) were leaking that badly to allow enough moisture to get in to "rust" the tin gaskety, once the hole had developed at all, there would have been enough of a vacuum leak and oil blowing out of the engine that you would have immediately noticed it. Not doubting your expertise, but I personally would look further for a cause.
Greg Surfas
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on October 03, 2017, 11:17:58 PM
Mike,
With all due respects, if the china rail (end seals) were leaking that badly to allow enough moisture to get in to "rust" the tin gaskety, once the hole had developed at all, there would have been enough of a vacuum leak and oil blowing out of the engine that you would have immediately noticed it. Not doubting your expertise, but I personally would look further for a cause.
Greg Surfas
Greg,
It didn't rust the intake manifold gasket, it rusted the bottom of the intake manifold itself. That was unpainted and any condensation in that area will form droplets on the (eventually) cold intake where it will oxidize, that is, start the formation of rust. Those rust droplets then fell onto the intake gasket which eventually rusted through, probably small at the beginning but getting progressively worse until it was a large hole. This probably took years. and yes it didn't idle super smoothly the last few years, and there was always a little oil outside the block, but most would have stayed inside and just dropped back down into the engine (along with the rust particles!). It would have to be aimed directly at the gap to get out.
There would be No vacuum leak because there is no engine vacuum in that area. The parts of of the gasket that mate the ports was fine, it was the bottom that rusted away.
That might not even be an airtight seal between the front and rear of the intake and the gasket. I'll have to look at it before its assembled this time to make sure that there is no air gap at either end.
Take any unpainted cast iron engine part, stick it outside here in FL, even left under a tarp or shade where it won't get directly rained on and you will see oxidation very soon and if you heat it up once a while and let it cool, you'll get the same result; rust formation.
I should ha ve an update tomorrow on how the rebuild is going. All the parts should be in and the engine should be getting re-assembled.
The engine is finally back together. I still have to clean out the engine bay with some de-greaser before it can be re-installed.
Here are a few pics of the Intake after it was ceramic coated top and bottom (with part of the newly ceramic coated exhaust manifold in one pic), the VIN proving that it is the ORIGINAL engine block, and 2 pics of the engine after I finished painting it earlier today.
The crank company shipped the WRONG rod bearings! (not even close)?#%^@#%#@$!$%@ and ARP put too small washers in the head studs kit I bought!?!?! At least they overnight-ed the correct washers so it could be re-assembled on Friday.
Some more cleanup, painting the Derale vented trans pan and replacing the right side blinker housing and then they can get the all paint nicks out and I might have my car back.
Nice, what type of pistons do you use?
Looks great, great progress.
You will enjoy the ceramic coated exhaust.
If you're going to tee off the oil pressure line to run gauge, now is a good time to plumb it.
Keep us updated!
Nicolas, We used Keith Black 10:1 back in 2005. seven were still good, only the one which must have hit the head needed replacement.
Chris, I'll talk with the shop regarding this. What would be involved?
I also need to paint the fan spacer once we figure out which is the correct size to use, and now would be a good time to stop the fuel drain from the float bowl which makes for extended cranking sessions after 3-4 days of sitting.
Mike,
What prompted you to use studs instead of Head bolts?
Greg Surfas
This is what I did:
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on October 28, 2017, 11:50:12 PM
The crank company shipped the WRONG rod bearings! (not even close)?#%^@#%#@$!$%@
Just a Simple Question....Who would install any bearings without checking them first? ??? If you don't have the correct inside/outside bore gauges and/or micrometers, Plasti-gauge is at least better than nothing. Costly Lesson.....
Bobby
Quote from: Bobby B on October 29, 2017, 10:10:28 PM
Just a Simple Question....Who would install any bearings without checking them first? ??? If you don't have the correct inside/outside bore gauges and/or micrometers, Plasti-gauge is at least better than nothing. Costly Lesson.....
Bobby
You're reading into the situation.
The replacement crankshaft came with a "matched" set of bearings. All in one 80 pound box.
When the shop opened the box to install it all, they found that the rod bearings were not even Cadillac 470/500 bearings, but instead looked like they were for a small block chev engine. So they had to send out for the proper rod bearing set. They did not try to install them.
Guess who gets to pay for the 2nd set of bearings???
Quote from: chrisntam on October 29, 2017, 12:24:15 PM
This is what I did:
OK, That looks neat. is there a fitting to block off the T until I can get a gauge set installed?
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on October 29, 2017, 11:11:27 AM
Mike,
What prompted you to use studs instead of Head bolts?
Greg Surfas
Greg;
A: Much easier to get the heads off again if needed.
B: Replacing my 50 year old head bolts seems to be a good idea. They have been out once already, and this is one area where you don't want to have any weakness in even one bolt.
C: They are stronger than head bolts.
D: Head stud kit was readily available while head bolt set didn't appear to be as easy to find. Of course it would have been better if ARP had put the correct size washers in the kit...
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on October 29, 2017, 10:40:02 PM
The replacement crankshaft came with a "matched" set of bearings. All in one 80 pound box.
When the shop opened the box to install it all, they found that the rod bearings were not even Cadillac 470/500 bearings, but instead looked like they were for a small block chev engine. So they had to send out for the proper rod bearing set. They did not try to install them.
Guess who gets to pay for the 2nd set of bearings???
Got it... ;)
If it were me, that crank would be on it's way back to where it came from. Please have the shop check the crank NOW, before you even bother installing it. There are crank grinders, and there are crank grinders......
Bobby
Quote from: Bobby B on October 29, 2017, 11:47:04 PM
Got it... ;)
If it were me, that crank would be on it's way back to where it came from. Please have the shop check the crank NOW, before you even bother installing it. There are crank grinders, and there are crank grinders......
Bobby
This was a VERY LARGE SCALE crank refurb company in MN, They just screwed up and put the wrong rod bearings in it.
It went in fine once the correct rod bearings were sourced.
I'm going to give them hell for it and get a set of .020 over sent to me for use with my original crankshaft when it is is repaired.
I glad I was able to get that one. I bought it from RockAuto, but the vendor was easily identified. You just Can't get cranks for this engine under $400 anywhere else and that's WITHOUT any bearings, and usually not ground & polished. This one was less than $400, shipped with bearings (well at least half the bearings!) If you go look at Rockauto right now, you MUST send in your original crank FIRST now. That was immediately After I bought this one.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on October 29, 2017, 10:40:02 PM
OK, That looks neat. is there a fitting to block off the T until I can get a gauge set installed?
Just use a pipe plug until you get a gauge.
I just went to the parts store with the gauge and oil pressure switch, bought the fittings, Teflon tape and assembled it. Normally, oil pressure gauges can be 1/8" or 1/4" pipe thread.
With the gauge, the oil doesn't pressure the gauge up for a few seconds after it starts. Must we way down the oil pressure line....
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on October 29, 2017, 10:40:02 PM
A: Much easier to get the heads off again if needed.
I take it that you have never tried to remove heads that are held down with a Stud Kit?
Okay with Copper Gaskets, or O Rings as in racing applications, as these don't stick, and rely on the stud pressure for total sealing, but definitely not with gaskets that stick to both surfaces.
Bruce. >:D
^^
Well, at least it will be easier to get the nuts & washers off than undoing the bolts in the block. :-X
Quote from: chrisntam on October 30, 2017, 05:47:21 AM
Just use a pipe plug until you get a gauge.
I just went to the parts store with the gauge and oil pressure switch, bought the fittings, Teflon tape and assembled it. Normally, oil pressure gauges can be 1/8" or 1/4" pipe thread.
With the gauge, the oil doesn't pressure the gauge up for a few seconds after it starts. Must we way down the oil pressure line....
Chris;
What type of "parts store" did you go to, an auto parts store of or homeless despot type of store???
You would likely have the best luck at a home depot or hardware like store. If you had an old school parts store with 'old guys' at the counter they may have it too but most stores can't look up or find anything without a year make and model and then it has to be a real car part which this isn't.
Sensors on these engines are standard national pipe threads NPT. Hardware and home stores should have plugs as well as adapters and T's in brass.
As TJ said, Home Depot, hardware store and even local parts stores should carry these common brass fittings.
Yours should be the same size as mine, it appears to be 1/4" pipe thread. You'll need:
1 male to male fitting (one end screws into the block, the other screws into the 3-way noted below)
1 3-way female adapter (screw one end of the male fitting one port, screw your factory oil pressure sender into one and screw your oil pressure gauge sender into the third port)
1 pipe plug (1/4") if you need to plug the 2nd port until you acquire a gauge.
Add a little bit of Teflon tape to all threads and you'll be good to go.
Quote from: chrisntam on October 30, 2017, 05:31:16 PM
Add a little bit of Teflon tape to all threads and you'll be good to go.
Sorry, but using a thread tape is not recommended when installing electrical components as there is the possibility of compromising the passage of connectivity between the component and ground.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 30, 2017, 06:09:57 PM
Sorry, but using a thread tape is not recommended when installing electrical components as there is the possibility of compromising the passage of connectivity between the component and ground.
Bruce. >:D
It gets grounded because the tape is cut by the sharp edges of the threads. Just don't load it up like your strangling it....
Haven't had an issue using tape on any of my stuff.
Some people do like to load them up, and then rely on the tape to seal.
Bruce. >:D
Thanks gents.
I tried an o'reiley's today, and found the "street T" in too small a size! So I guess its off to the homeless despot for the fittings. I have a new sender that I bought to verify the threads. I am familiar with NPT, there's one or two standards for each thread diameter, usually called coarse and fine (thread pitch...) I did find a decent oil and volts gauge at o'reiley's (two separate gauges, because I don't need a temp gauge).
AFAIK, there is only one thread pitch for pipe threaded fittings. I "think" each size has it's own pitch. 1/8" NPT "looks" pretty fine, 1/4" is a little more coarse, as is 3/8" and 1/2". It gets progressively more coarse.
I found the 3 brass fittings at the local homeless despot, so I'll being them to the shop tomorrow. Took less than 5 min vs over a half hour at o'reiley's (who didn't have the necessary fittings).
This was / is 1/4 NPT. That's the size of the Tube / Pipe and NOT the size of the threaded end..... and my 3/8 transmission lines use 1/2 in threads... Those crazy NPT thread standards. And we're supposedly on the "metric" standard and have been for 30-40 years ?????
It is my understanding that pipe sizes are based on ID back when the standard was established. Materials have become much better and the walls can be thinner than before, but the thread is on the OD of the pipe so the OD cannot be changed. As a result, the actual sizes are larger. For example ¼“ pipe is actually 3/8†ID an 1/2" OD. its pretty confusing until you work with it for a while.
Even more confusing when these are just fittings for automotive sensors and there is NO pipe being connected.
I've looked at some oil gauges, and I DO NOT want a gauge that has a plastic tube with oil being pumped under pressure to the gauge for a reading. That is a good way to lose all my oil, when, Not if that plastic line breaks.
so I guess I need an electrical oil gauge (and a volts gauge to keep an eye on charging level).
Just don't get one of those cheapie oil pressure gauges. I pulled what was left of my hair out when I got one. It would drop to near 0 at a stoplight and I thought it was due to not really having pressure. It wasn't until I noticed I lost about 15 psi when my lights were on that I realized it was a cheap gauge and an older charging system.
Jeff
I have this and a standard water temp gauge:
http://www.digi-panel.com/
I don't have the trans temp gauge, but it was tempting....
Electric oil pressure gauge uses a bell shaped sender. The voltage gauge just hooks a wire into the existing electrical to monitor the voltage. The engine temp portion monitors the engine temp via a ring type connector that is bolted (like a washer) under a bolt on the t-stat housing. Mine consistently reads metal temp from 200 to 230 or so. I have a 180 stat in it and the water temp is about 190.
It's hard to tell exactly what the pressure/voltage/temp is as each bar is a range. The colors are green when in the acceptable range, yellow for caution and red for turn the engine off.
Kinda pricey, but it works for me. A standard 3 gauge package may provide more "detailed" information and would be at least $100 less. I liked the compact design of this.
I too have the digi-panel and really like it. Mine does not match the reading of an IR gun at the sensor but does match the reading I get from my EFI which is in the port under the distributor so I assumed that was intentional since the metal may be cooler than the coolant?
I am amazed that in bright sun you can still see the active bar yet at night its not too bright.
The 1968s had a built in temp gauge, so I only need an oil gauge and a volts gauge. I will try to find a quality oil gauge and a matching volts gauge. My new Derale vented trans pan has a fitting for a trans temp gauge, so i Could use that for the temp part of a 3 gauge set.
Who makes good gauges? I remember Sun but they seem to be long gone...
Stuart Warner is still around. VDO is also a brand that seems to be respected.
I found the Stewart Warner pages. Lots of options. I like the power line series with the light blue center. Electrical oil gauge only for me. No pressurized oil line running to my dash that will spew oil when it breaks.. No Way.
The engine is back in. We have a small issue with the transmission oil cooler lines. as I noted on another thread I bought lines for a 1969-70. They are the correct size and overall shape, but are about 2 inches too long. We'll have to do some creative bending or cut them back by the transmission and fit a coupler in.
Still need to have the carbie put back on, the new Derale trans pan and filter installed, trans motor mount, and probably a lot of wires, hoses & belts. The Derale pan has a fitting for a temp sender so that's a third gauge option if i want it. Here's a link to it:
https://derale.com/products/transmission-pans/cooling-pans/6an-male-x-3-8-barb-detail
Of course I used some of my Hirsch paint to get rid of that black.
Engine is back in. Trying to get the Powermaster 150 Amp alternator to correctly light up the "GEN" light. And of course the batteries need charging.
Pics:
I think Powermaster makes adapter harnesses that include the bypassing the external regulator.
I already have it. Just need to verify existing in car wires and get it properly set up.
The shop got it started today. They say its running fine. !!!!!
Looks great! That engine will never be that clean as it is now!
Tell me about the transmission pan.
Looks like the trans cooler lines fit.
It also looks like you're putting it back together to last for the long haul.
If we had a two thumbs up thingy, I'd use it here!
chris.
Thanks Chris,
The trans cooler lines were about 2 inches too long. We had to do some creative bending to make them shorter. That was the only issue, but it was a PITA because they don't want to bend!
The pan is a Derale standard vented TH400 pan.
link: http://derale.com/products/transmission-pans/cooling-pans/6an-male-x-3-8-barb-detail
I got the same type of T fitting you did for oil pressure. I'll look for an SW gauge for it and a volts gauge.
I want to keep it until I can't rive any longer, so might as well do things right. Everything in it worked (except the clock and I have one that works), so I want to keep it working.
Yeah, I'm sure it will dirty up quite quickly once I start running it again.
Well, I actually started it today. There's still a little timing / dwell to fine tune and carbie attachments that won't stay attached!?! Not to mention the MISSING Carbie heat shield, which it apparently hasn't hasn't been there for a least 17 or 18 years???
I had the carb rebuilt in 1990 or 2000 and they might have left of that shim / shield. I know they took off the Climate Control Idle speed up diaphram and i had to hunt that item down later. Who knows, at least it will have the heat shield now.
Good to hear things are moving along. Thanks for the link on the transmission pan. It is interesting and can only help (add'l capacity and potential cooling).
8)
I might be getting it back on Mon or Tue. I wanted all the paint chips taken out but that will have to be in a few weeks. In the meantime They'll make me some touch up paint so I can go over the worst ones, and still have it to drive this month.
OK, I got it back the next week (Dec).
I will detail all the small and not so small things that the shop just messed up later. Like the speedo cable that was ripped out of the dash when re-installing the engine, the bad ground on the headlights, the smudged up valve covers, etc.....
But the overall engine rebuild was well done. The car runs smoothly and after about 750 miles does not appear to have used any oil and it still looks good.
Question is when should I change it? at 1000 miles, 2K, 3K???
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on March 18, 2018, 12:58:09 AM
Question is when should I change it? at 1000 miles, 2K, 3K???
If you're referring to the Break-in Oil, I usually dump at 500 miles....
Bobby
Then I'll change mine since it has about 750 miles on it. I'll change it again at 1000 and then twice a year after that. I'm using synthetic in all my cars now.
Great that she is back on the road. Too bad about speedo cable, what a pin these little clean up things can be.
Here more of the story on the speedo cable, etc. It's not "the rest of the story" but I'll get to it all eventually.
Car is supposedly ready to pick up 2nd week of December, late in the day. I go look at it and in the back seat on the floor are mice / rat turds !?!?!. They have either field mice and or rats hanging around and they went after the scented tea light candled I had under the seat.
They supposedly test drove the car, but on my way home (20 miles) I almost immediately notice no speedo dial moving. I called and said I'd bring it back in the morning because they were closing and I was not going to be able to get a ride.
I also nitice that onle the left headlights were working and that not the hi and lo beams were on no matter what I did with the floor dimmer switch.
I bring it back the next day and it took them about three days to get the speedo cable secured back to the dash terminal.
What happened was when they were re-installing the engine the block gor caught on the speedo cable (it's easy to happen), but nobody was paying attention and it basically ripped the cable out from the dash post, and broke the spring steel snap ring that holds it in. I had to help them to get the whole dash off and get the cluster out of the car so it could be secured and threaded back.
The headlights was a bad ground on the fenderwell and a non-attached block to fame ground that they were just to laze to see where it was supposed to go. They rid the denfer ground and found (after I told them where to look) and re-attached the block to frame ground on the passenger sie. I did take the opportunity to put my working electric clock in the car at that time.
But now my Twilight Sentinel always turns the headlights on even on a bright sunny day, so there might be a disconnected or out of place sensor up in the dash, so I'll have to take the upper dash off. Again.
There's a noticeable clunk coming from the left side. They had just replaced all 4 upper control arm bushings. I hope those are in correctly. I don't have a lift so I'll being it to the tie shop across from where ilive and they'll check it out for me.
The temp gauge still creeps. It Was quite arm a few days in Jan, after the big freeze blew over. This is after I had the radiator re-cored for beaucoup bucks.
The hood is misaligned. Its too high up by the windshield. I'll bring it someplace else after I get the suspension problem solved.
They smudged both valve covers. This is after I took two days to paint the block myself before it was installed. and the owner's brother was actually arguing with me over it. That was it for me.
Again, the engine rebuild was well done, but there was just a lack of concern for the rest of the car.
There is a shop much closer to home that can correct some of this. The closer shop did a Nice job of getting out all the chips and dings, etc from the paint last month, including the crease I put in the left rear quarter with my Fleetwood, so I'll let them work on it going forward. They also replaced the moldings I broke on the Fleetwood when I creased the deVille. They were the ones I wanted to take the car to when the rod knocking got bad, but they couldn't handle the job, they were (and are) still packed with work every day.
The only think I don't think they can handle is the Cadillac Climate Control, but I know enough about that to keep it running.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on March 18, 2018, 08:14:53 PM
The temp gauge still creeps. It Was quite arm a few days in Jan, after the big freeze blew over. This is after I had the radiator re-cored for beaucoup bucks.
Mike,
Hi. Sorry about your mini-misadventures, but don't sweat the small stuff. You'll get it worked out. Some people are great at certain things, but they might not be as careful as you would, or as detail oriented. This is to be expected in today's world. Maybe not acceptable, but this is how it sometimes goes.
On a fresh rebuild the engine will run slightly hotter than normal due to lack of clearances or "tightness". Maybe that's all it is. It could also be something as simple as the cooling system not being fully bled. It'll usually creep up for no reason, and then settle back down at random. This is usually a sign of some air being trapped. It's common and maybe they just overlooked it. Anyway,it all looks Great and Good Luck with your new Heart! ;)
Bobby
Thanks Bobby,
It only creeps when I'm stopped in heavy traffic. As soon as I get moving it goes right back down. I'm thinking of of putting an engine oil cooler in to 1: add more oil to the system, which helps dissipate heat, and 2: to get the oil a little cooler inside the block which will also help. I don't think I'll add a transmission oil cooler since I put in the Derale pan with the 10 vent tubes in it.
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on March 21, 2018, 12:53:54 AM
Thanks Bobby,
It only creeps when I'm stopped in heavy traffic. As soon as I get moving it goes right back down. I'm thinking of of putting an engine oil cooler in to 1: add more oil to the system, which helps dissipate heat, and 2: to get the oil a little cooler inside the block which will also help. I don't think I'll add a transmission oil cooler since I put in the Derale pan with the 10 vent tubes in it.
Mike,
Try and find the root of the problem (if there actually is one), before you add some additional aids. They might just mask your issue so you'd never know what was causing the problem in the first place. Whenever I troubleshoot a problem, I'll only change one thing at a time until I nail it, and go from there.
Bobby
RE: Your hood. Read Greg Surfas' reply in this thread ---
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=115599.msg186743;topicseen#msg186743
Quote from: Bobby B on March 21, 2018, 01:16:29 AM
Mike,
Try and find the root of the problem (if there actually is one), before you add some additional aids. They might just mask your issue so you'd never know what was causing the problem in the first place. Whenever I troubleshoot a problem, I'll only change one thing at a time until I nail it, and go from there.
Bobby
Bobby,
The owners manual says on p10: "The gauge pointer will move from C to the one-quarter mark. Do not be alarmed if the pointer registers above the center range in heavy traffic or on long drives during warm weather. The pressurized radiator will prevent coolant loss up to 259 deg F..." It then notes the engine metal temp warning buzzer and red warning lamp and to shut if off it those go off.
It's done exactly that, crept up, but not to the point where it sets off the light and buzzer. Moving along even at highway speed in 95-105 deg F weather has not caused it to register hot in the past, and on cooler days with the top down the pointer will actually settle below the 1/4 mark. Heck on Dec 30 last year the pointer was at about 1/8, that's how cold it was outside.
I've also put in the 1969-70 overflow tank and RC-27 cap so it it ever blows some coolant out, it will be recovered. It did not and does not leak coolant.
I keep the concentration at approx 50%, for the best balance. I also use water wetter, but that doesn't seem to do much.
My main concern is not ruining the expensive rebuild job by cooking the bearings. The traffic today is MUCH heavier than it was 50 years ago, and its HOT down here; 95-105 temps in the summer with the asphalt temp getting to 130-140+ degrees, that's hot and that's the air coming across the radiator in the summer when you are stopped in a mile plus long backup with hundreds of cars putting out all that heat. And if the top us up, the Climate Control adds to the engine load.
That said, I looked carefully at the engine when it was apart and the bearings and I saw No indication of overheating causing bearing or any other damage.
Yeah the starter got cooked, but I put a shield on, it probably won't help since I got it on with the wrong angle of the dangle, but I can move it or add a second one, or wrap the starter, and now I have two spare starters.
So do I just leave it alone or take some measure to keep it a little cooler?
More quarts of oil in the system will take more heat away from the engine, that's a function of physics. A little air across it will help more and the thermostat will prevent the car from running too cool, so an oil cooler system can only help - unless it leaks of course.
In which case I'll probably rig up a bypass connector to eliminate the cooling lines and keep it with me in the trunk. along with a spare oil filter. Sort of like my 48" belts in case the compressor seizes, the little jumper in case the neutral safety switch breaks and the little jumper in case the Climate Control goes out of control and refuses to turn on the fan...
Quote from: 35-709 on March 21, 2018, 10:42:41 AM
RE: Your hood. Read Greg Surfas' reply in this thread ---
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=115599.msg186743;topicseen#msg186743
Thanks! I'll try this when I can get someone to help with holding / propping the hood.
Mike,
Hi. Sounds like you have all the bases pretty much covered. Is the timing dead on and the carb mixture perfect? If you don't hear any pinging under load, I wouldn't be too concerned. Just for ha-ha's, you might want to get a cheap gauge to double check the temperature, if you say it's not setting off the light/ alarm. I'm not familiar with your cooling system, but does the fan have a clutch or is it a full time fan? Electric fans? I know that feeling of driving "scared' all the time. I was big into Pontiacs at one time, and they tend to run way hotter than anything else out there. The running temperature of High performance Pontiac 400's would put most people into panic mode, but it's just the way they run. Today's fuel isn't any help either. I fought an overheating problem with the '47 Flathead for years until it finally gave up. Valve seat and cylinder wall cracks were the culprit. I think you're just being overly cautious and a little nervous with your new motor, and that's understandable. Don't sweat it, it happens to just about everyone who's had their engine rebuilt. The break-in period is quite nerve wracking to say the least...
Bobby
Quote from: Bobby B on March 22, 2018, 11:27:25 PM
Mike,
Hi. Sounds like you have all the bases pretty much covered. Is the timing dead on and the carb mixture perfect? If you don't hear any pinging under load, I wouldn't be too concerned. Just for ha-ha's, you might want to get a cheap gauge to double check the temperature, if you say it's not setting off the light/ alarm. I'm not familiar with your cooling system, but does the fan have a clutch or is it a full time fan? Electric fans? I know that feeling of driving "scared' all the time. I was big into Pontiacs at one time, and they tend to run way hotter than anything else out there. The running temperature of High performance Pontiac 400's would put most people into panic mode, but it's just the way they run. Today's fuel isn't any help either. I fought an overheating problem with the '47 Flathead for years until it finally gave up. Valve seat and cylinder wall cracks were the culprit. I think you're just being overly cautious and a little nervous with your new motor, and that's understandable. Don't sweat it, it happens to just about everyone who's had their engine rebuilt. The break-in period is quite nerve wracking to say the least...
Bobby
Bobby, I have a Fluke infrared temp gun, and in 2016 when this was giving me grief we temped it, while hot. The coolant was coming out of the upper hose at about 210-220 degrees and going across the radiator it went down to about 140-162 just before hitting the right tank, which then jumped back up to 180 or so because the trans was also hot. So the radiator cooled ok. Not completely scientific but it seemed ok. I'll check it again now that I have a re-cored radiator this weekend after it get it heated up.
It had the original 1968-69 style 7 blade clutch fan but that was routinely checked and supposedly never was bad. I changed the clutch and fan & a half a year ago, because my fan blades were bent / curved??
But I took it off and have a 1970 style 7 blade no clutch fan in it now. Belt driven fits right on the water ump. No electric fans, but I was considering a pusher fan once, but that's way too ugly looking.
Carbie. It not lean, might be a tad rich. Too lean will make it run hot.
Timing. That I have to look into much more closely. I need to remember to get an adjustable timing light. There is a tightrope that needs to be walked on these high compression 1968-70 engines. Too little advance and it runs hot, too much and it knocks all over the place.
There was No evidence of damage due to spark knock when it was taken apart, and I run only Shell premium 93 (which still isn't high enough) and then I add in some Sunoco 110 octane to get the octane up to 95 - 96 or so and there's no knock. If I don't have enough 110, I can hear / feel it on med to strong acceleration. I also have a crane cams adjustable vacuum advance.
One can't time these engines to a fixed "12 degrees before", or "30 deg total advance" etc. One should start at factory specs and then make any adjustments to vacuum or mechanical advance which doesn't even come into play with factory settings because timing adjustments are to be made with the vacuum advance disconnected and plugged. The spec is 5 degrees BTDC for a warmed up engine at 600RPM in Drive.
Where the adjustments come in are the springs for the mechanical advance and any adjustment of the variable advance on the crane cams advance - After the initial setting is correct.
It's going to be a complex endeavor to get timing just right, not because it can't be brought to original factory specs, but because of the crappy a$$ed gasoline we have today.
Mike,
Just a stupid question....Does that car have a fan shroud? If you replaced the fan clutch with a "Solid" mounted fan, Did you use a spacer to keep the same distance from the Radiator? The blades need to be a calculated distance within the shroud for optimum cooling. Datsun 240Z's suffered this problem because people would remove the fan shroud and discard it. When I got mine it did the same thing, and it was an original California Car. Once I installed a repo fan shroud, the temps went down a good 10+ degrees. You also mentioned the Crane system. You need to make sure that it's operating properly. I'm so leery of todays aftermarket parts. The spike thing it's what's confusing me. Temp spiking is usually associated with a blown head gasket, air in the cooling system, or a slipping impeller on the water pump, and/ or an impeller with the improper clearance to the pump body, allowing cavitation. I would also pull the Stat and toss that baby in a pot of water on it's way to a boil and check what temperature it's opening on. I test every thermostat before I install it in any vehicle. Might want to throw an old radiator cap on there also to see if that would make a difference. It's a tough problem (if there actually is one) to chase......
Bobby
The original fan shroud is in place and I have the 1970 no clutch fan spacer installed. The new fan is about the same size as the old fan, less than 1/2" clearance between it and the shroud. I'm not new to this, I've had this car for 20 years and back in the late 70s early 80s had 3 others of the same year range.
It's not temp spiking. It creeps up when stopped in heavy traffic.
And as I noted before, while moving the temp will settle back down to where it belongs. The Tstat is new and the water pump, a flow-kool one, only has about one year of use so I put it back on.
The manual says not to be alarmed, but I just don't want to have to rebuild it again in another 5-6 years.
Mike,
After reading this, and your suffering with a shop that installed the engine - it just reinforces how important it is to see it done right. The actual remove my engine after everything is ready for the pull - 1/2 hour tops. Reinstall engine in place secure to trans and front mountings - an hour, and that was my first time. Plus none of this BS.
Understand not many have space and patience to do this. However, what I take away from this is ask how much extra it will cost to have me their supervising the work or helping - usually this cost is double normal but apparently well worth it.
These 472 engines are very sensitive to overheating with bad timing. Even five degrees retarded will cause it to run much hotter than it should. Another thing I see is distributor is a tooth off - if you check timing yourself and do not see the mark - it is that. Obviously you already checked heat riser, no big gaps between radiator and sides/bottom, and etc.
When you get it dialed in, it will be amazing!
Quote from: Scot Minesinger on March 25, 2018, 09:17:29 AM
Mike,
After reading this, and your suffering with a shop that installed the engine - it just reinforces how important it is to see it done right. The actual remove my engine after everything is ready for the pull - 1/2 hour tops. Reinstall engine in place secure to trans and front mountings - an hour, and that was my first time. Plus none of this BS.
Understand not many have space and patience to do this. However, what I take away from this is ask how much extra it will cost to have me their supervising the work or helping - usually this cost is double normal but apparently well worth it.
These 472 engines are very sensitive to overheating with bad timing. Even five degrees retarded will cause it to run much hotter than it should. Another thing I see is distributor is a tooth off - if you check timing yourself and do not see the mark - it is that. Obviously you already checked heat riser, no big gaps between radiator and sides/bottom, and etc.
When you get it dialed in, it will be amazing!
Scot,
I didn't have the space, equipment, knowledge, etc. to get it out and back in.
I was there a lot while everything was getting done, and I bought most of the parts. The only parts I didn't get were cam bearings (which I would have if they had told me it needed them beforehand) and and some plugs, but they got the exact same ACDelcos that were in the car. I even painted the block and a lot of small arts (of course the valve covers got all smudged up with re-installation).
Just about everything was done exactly correct, except they fell apart on re-installation. They Weren't paying enough attention, etc. etc. etc. It's not really the worse for wear, Speedo is working fine, Twilight Sentinel; I'll have to research that, but I hope it's a misplaced sensor or wire.
Timing lights:
What are some good brands vs some poor ones? Can I get a decent one from the local auto parts stores (AutoZone, Advance and O'Reillys are around here).
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on March 25, 2018, 10:43:18 PM
Twilight Sentinel; I'll have to research that, but I hope it's a misplaced sensor or wire.
Mike, if the dash cover was removed then start there. The sensor mounts near the speaker. If it was forgotten about during reassembly then it will be laying somewhere close below the speaker. It is dark brown about the diameter of a dime.
I don't think I've seen this mentioned here unless I've missed something. About your temperature creeping issue, have you checked to make sure the shop installed the correct thermostat? This engine takes its own style thermostat and while the standard GM thermostat will fit and give no indication that it's not right, coolant will not flow properly through the block and the engine will tend to run hotter than it should for no apparent reason.
Guess it hasn't been mentioned in this thread but it has been discussed on these forums before and I have posted pictures of the correct 501 series engine thermostat before as below ---
Pic. #1 Correct thermostat
Pic. #2 Lesser GM make thermostat
I bought two AC-Delco 12T18D stats which look like pic # 1 above, so it is the correct stat.
Again, it DOES NOT creep while moving down the road, even when it's quite hot outside. It only starts to creep when I'm STOPPED in heavy traffic (or moving at 5-10mph on a hot engine).
Mike, this probably means nothing but...
my 2008 GMC Acadia (136K) will creep when I'm stopped or in slow traffic on a super hot day with the AC running. Once I start rolling again it goes back to normal range.
\m/
Laurie
Temp creep on a hot day in stopped or stop and go traffic seems perfectly normal to me --- as long as it doesn't overheat.
Mike,
Just to chime in here. The subject of 472/500 inch motors running "hot" has been discussed at length. These motors WERE DESIGNED TO RUN BETWEEN 210 AND 220 DEGREES in order to obtain the efficiency that the higher temperatures bring. Less energy (from the gasoline) is wasted by being removed by the cooling system and stays in the combustion process where it should be.
That said there is the issue of gages, their necessity and their accuracy. looking at a gage that constantly reads 220 degrees is off-putting to those not used to Cadillacs, and even some of us that are. That is the reason I don't have any auxiliary gages on any of my "street" cars. The factory temperature warning lights and oil pressure warning , IF WARNINGS ARE FOLLOWED, are sufficient.
One of the things that these motors need is an appropriate, working vacuum advance for conditions of light load, and in particular for low load, low speed, warm temperature operation. I even have one on my "hot motor" car, so I can drive it out to the strip and idle in the staging lane without it overheating.
Something on the order of 20 (crankshaft) degrees at idle vacuum is what a stock motor wants.
If your vacuum advance is functional (hooked directly to intake manifold) and none of your warning lights come on, you are probably okay. Just drive it and get the motor broken in changing the oil at (I do this) 4-500 miles. Use a good oil (I use Valvoline VR-1, 10/30 wt) and change it and the filter at about 3000 miles or 6 months.
On to the next "project" issuer.
Greg Surfas
Greg,
So what I need to do is ensure that the base timing at idle, AC off, vacuum adv disconnected, etc, etc, is the specified 5 deg BTDC.
Then adjust the vacuum advance to 20 total degrees at idle (vacuum reconnected of course) -NOT to 20 more than the base 5 - correct?
Then I can experiment with the mechanical advance springs (I think there are like 6 springs in the kit) to give the best performance without knocking.
I have the car set up exactly as it was new. The carb advance and manifold advance are Both connected to the thermal vacuum switch and That is connected to the distributor. I'll have to test that switch as well, but there is a test procedure in the manual, and I have a couple spare thermal vacuum switches.
Now how about a timing light recommendation??
As to the gauge. I'm sure it is accurate enough, and the manual DOES say not to be alarmed, etc... but It cost Plenty to get the engine overhauled, nearly all my extra savings, and I don't want to have to do it again.
Mike,
If you are going through the thermal vacuum switch for vacuum advance vacuum then I understand why the temperature creeps up. The switch does not allow manifold vacuum until the motor reaches a bit over 210 degrees.
This is part of the emissions system.
I suggest you do as you say regarding timing and hook up the vacuum advance can directly to manifold vacuum. You can do this as an interim stem to be sure nothing else is causing the motor to run warm.
You talk about "adjusting" the vacuum advance. I have to take that to mean you are using an "adjustable" can. I personally have never found them to be the best and have always used the stock, factory can. AC Delco D1346C will give you 24 (crankshaft) degrees at 15.0-17.5 inches of vacuum and start at 8-10 inches. This is tailored to the engine's requirements, assuming you are still running 10.5:1 compression.
Greg Surfas
Greg,
Yes I have a Crane Cams adjustable vacuum advance. I'm running slightly over 10:1. K&B pistons specified to be 10:1 with shaved heads. Certainly not 10.5:1 but a tad over 10:1. Essentially the same, too high for today's fuels, even 93 octane shell.
I do have it set up factory spec and can easily change to run the MT directly to the carb and plug the carb vacuum line & fitting.
I see the ACDelco D1346C vacuum advance. There is also a D1359C, costs a bit more and no other explanation, both are in rockauto as fitting 1964-1972 Cadillacs. Is the D1359c better than the D1346, or should I save my $3 and buy a quart of 110 octane gas instead?
Mike,
The 1346 is the correct one for your motor as it is. I would go direct to Manifold vacuum woith the vacuum advance and see how that works. When you put your foot in it with the 1346 the manifold vacuum will drop below 10 inches and the vacuum advance will not be engaged.
As far as gasoline is concerned I ran nothing but 93 octane pump gas in my 66 (429) for over 20 years with out any issues, however I rebuilt that motor with forged pistons and had a "small" cam.
Greg Surfas
Car has been running good since last spring, but I'm hearing a rapping sound again, not sure where from. Not anywhere as loud, but I'll have to have it checked. I ordered one of those oil test kits from Blaskstone.
Anyone who has used these guys before?
Mike,
I read through the entire post and did not see any mention of the shop "breaking in" the cam/lifters by running the motor at 2500 RPM for 25 minutes. What this does is seats the lifters. If the shop did this, fine, but if they didn't the noise you are hearing MIGHT be the lifters.How many miles do you have on the rebuilt motor now, and have you checked to see that the noise is not due to an exhaust leak at the manifolds or head pipes where they connect to the exhaust manifolds?
Greg Surfas
Yes, when I did some work on my 472 (replacing low mileage lifters as a precaution) I was told by MTS to run the car at 2,500 rpm for 25 minutes too. The car has since been driven over 10k trouble free miles since then. MTS said if I did not do that it would flatten out the cam and it would have to be replaced. The car is not meant to be sitting still when the engine runs at 2,500 rpm and it can overheat. I opened the hood and put a box fan on it in April (60'F outside). The engine got up to about 218'F and was climbing slowly after 25 minutes.
It was cool to have that engine all apart, hundreds of pieces and bolts on the table, head off and all - then put it back together, prime carb and starts right up just like new - awesome sound.
The shop should remember doing this because in FL it could have started to overheat (I have a tachometer and temp gauge). If not, that could be an issue. You could ask them if it did overheat during this.
One way to stop any overheating is to do the running in process in intervals, leaving time to cool down before starting again.
Bruce. >:D
Bruce,
True MTS did tell me that multiple intervals would be fine at 2,500 rpm for a total of 25 minutes. It was not hot out and with a better stock looking 4 row radiator, hood up, and box fan wanted to see if I could do it one run, and it worked out.
Plus, the other thing to do is as soon as the engine starts, go straight to the 2,500 RPM, and when turning the engine off, let the engine revs drop off suddenly, and turn off the ignition. Never allow the engine to idle at all.
Remembering that if one has primed the oiling system via the oil pump priming tool, and observing an aftermarket oil pressure gauge, which I always temporarily install, one doesn't have to concerned with oil pressure on start-up.
I always love to observe at the actions of a customer when I start their engine for the first time. They are usually really horrified.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on February 01, 2019, 12:03:24 PM
Mike,
I read through the entire post and did not see any mention of the shop "breaking in" the cam/lifters by running the motor at 2500 RPM for 25 minutes. What this does is seats the lifters. If the shop did this, fine, but if they didn't the noise you are hearing MIGHT be the lifters.How many miles do you have on the rebuilt motor now, and have you checked to see that the noise is not due to an exhaust leak at the manifolds or head pipes where they connect to the exhaust manifolds? Greg Surfas
The cam is from the 2005 rebuild which presumably was broken in back then.
Mike,
Not to beat a dead horse, but if the initial break in was done correctly and when you just rebuilt the motor the lifters were not reinstalled ion the same cam lobes they were initially, excessive wear MIGHT occur. At this point I personally would be very sure the noise is not an exhaust leak.
Greg Surfas
Every time I rebuilt a motor, getting it to run @ 2500 for the break in period was always a challenge. Timing, valve adjustment, leaks, carb issues etc.
Roller lifters changed all that, but I still run flat tappets.
Perhaps at the next rebuild I'll go with roller lifters for the sole purpose of not having do deal with the (very) stressful break in issues.
chris.
Chris,
FWIW if you are running a stock valve train (rocker-arms/clips) then valve adjustment with a stock cam and lifters is not necessary. If you are running adjustable rockers, the pre-load can be set one cylinder at a time with the motor either out of the car or just not running by rotating the motor 90 degrees at a time and adjusting the valves as per the firing order.
As mentioned above, the break-in can be done in stages, just do not let the engine idle but oif it starts to over heat, shut it off and wait for it to cool down.
Greg Surfas
Prior to Cadillac, I dealt with Chevrolet, Pontiac and Oldsmobile motors.
Quote from: chrisntam on February 02, 2019, 10:31:51 AM
Perhaps at the next rebuild I'll go with roller lifters for the sole purpose of not having do deal with the (very) stressful break in issues. chris.
The sound of a newly-built engine running at 2,500 or 3,000 RPM is music to my ears.
If it is stressful to you, then let someone else do it whilst you pop down to the Cafe and have a Coffee. ;)
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: chrisntam on February 02, 2019, 05:02:38 PM
Prior to Cadillac, I dealt with Chevrolet, Pontiac and Oldsmobile motors.
And they should be broken in the same way.
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 02, 2019, 06:04:37 PM
The sound of a newly-built engine running at 2,500 or 3,000 RPM is music to my ears.
If it is stressful to you, then let someone else do it whilst you pop down to the Cafe and have a Coffee. ;)
Bruce. >:D
Perhaps, but how do you "know" they'll do it right?
My point was all the labor and money that you put into the rebuild can be easily thwarted by improper break-in.
;)
All new lifters were installed in the old Cam (from 2005). Should it have been run at 2500 for 25 min, or should some other process run, or was it not necessary. I can always get another set of lifters and have them put in if they are now trashed.
And I'll check for an exhaust leak - but how??
Mike,
I bought a new set of lifters from MTS to install on a cam that had 20k miles on it to remain. MTS told me to run the engine at 2,500 rpm for 25 minutes for break in. Their words were "do this so you do not flatten out the cam". If this was not done, it could be an issue.
The break in run period did not sound bad at all to me, and it is 25 minutes out of your life - no big deal. It is better to spend 25 minutes doing this than all the work arounds with roller rockers and etc. This technology from 1968 thru 1981 on these Cadillac engines is well proven on millions of engines. Plus other makes required the same treatment.
Mike finding exhaust noises can be tricky. You have to do it by ear and the best way to do that is take a piece of something like 1/2 inch hose, cut a 36 inch length and with one end to your (good) ear, run the other end around any possible leak site such as where the manifold joins the block or around head pipe joints.
Scott, The "roller" is for roller lifters. shot below shows pair of roller lifters and a flat tappet lifter
Greg Surfas
here
Greg,
Aren't there also some rollers on top of valve stems or something like that MTS offers on modified heads where unfortunately the stock valve covers do not fit?
Anyway, for normal driving that I do - no fast take-offs very often, no high speed (usually 80mph (would be 90mph if in TX) is about the limit for me), and the like, the standard engine construction with no rollers should suffice for me.
Thanks,
Scot
Greg, can you even put Roller Lifters on a 472 without altering the block or heads?
I will check with the rebuild shop to ensure that they did run in the engine at 2500 for 25 min when they first re-assembled it.
If they didn't then I need a new cam and lifters? and possibly cam bearings??
Mike,
Find the noise first. Don't just start throwing parts at an inaccurately diagnosed problem.
Yes the proper roller lifters (as shown) will work in an unaltered block, but you need the correct cam for them to be effective, and for most (less than) 4500 RPM Cadillac motors they are unnecessary.
Greg Surfas
My 2002 Avalanche has roller lifters. Don't all modern engines now use roller lifters?
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on February 01, 2019, 10:16:44 AM
Car has been running good since last spring, but I'm hearing a rapping sound again, not sure where from. Not anywhere as loud, but I'll have to have it checked. I ordered one of those oil test kits from Blaskstone.
Anyone who has used these guys before?
Found the cause of the "rapping" sound. Answer is in my latest car follies post:
http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=156624.msg437548#msg437548
Here are some crank damage and bearing pics for those who want to see the damage the contaminated oil did to the crankshaft.
The bearing photos shows a good bearing on the left and the spun (or nearly spun) one on the right.
G'day Mike,
That sure made a mess of that Crankshaft.
Never seen one before with such a definite division between good and serviceable, and bad and replacement warranted.
Bruce. >:D
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on July 28, 2020, 08:20:35 PM
G'day Mike,
That sure made a mess of that Crankshaft.
Never seen one before with such a definite division between good and serviceable, and bad and replacement warranted.
Bruce. >:Dv
Hi Bruce.
That one on the left was a goner as well, but it was 2-3 times as thick as the one on the right. The rebuild got all new crank, rod and cam bearings, 2 rods to replace #s 5 & 6, one piston, a serviceable crank (010 over bearings) from RockAuto - probably THE LAST one they ever sent without requiring you to send in yours first. new valve guide seals (stopped the oil usage!!) Cam was still good, and the cylinders only needed a light honing. even with the bearing damage, the engine insides were very clean.
A lot of other niceties were done as well, like new transmission lines (PITA because they were a 1969 set) and a new trans pan with 10 cooling tubes.