Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: e.mason on October 01, 2017, 06:28:27 PM

Title: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on October 01, 2017, 06:28:27 PM
As I was driving along today in my new Cadillac.  I reflected on how much Cadillac has come in the last 50-60 years with convenience options.  Back in the day, when Cadillac was on the cutting edge of luxury.  Options like power windows, power steering, power brakes etc. were all the rage.  I then took account of what conveniences today's Cadillacs offer.  Rear TV cameras and monitor.  Radar for safety.  Onboard WiFi.  Satellite radio.  Navigation system as part of the Onstar system.  Being able to order a pizza at the touch of a button.  This then lead to me to wondering.  What will be the state, in the future, of restoring and maintaining antique cars?

Besides the challenge of finding replacement parts.  A restorer will need a degree from MIT.  Thoughts?
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 01, 2017, 07:26:08 PM
I am thinking that these later model vehicles will be virtually unrestoreable unless there is a perfect supply of replacement parts for every part of the car.

The use of rubber that is formed to odd shapes to fill areas that simple extrusions cannot fill and seal, plus plastics that do similar tasks, electronics that are so complex, including computers and the like, will only make the older vehicles more highly prized.

3D Printers will be a requirement in every home/garage to make the unobtanium pieces.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Bobby B on October 01, 2017, 08:57:36 PM
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 01, 2017, 07:26:08 PM
I am thinking that these later model vehicles will be virtually unrestoreable unless there is a perfect supply of replacement parts for every part of the car.
Bruce. >:D

Bruce,
In all Honesty...Who would want to?  >:D
                                                Bobby
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Bill Young on October 01, 2017, 11:28:21 PM
I personally think the safety things are fine , my problem centers around that in my opinion all the new cars look like ass. Also they all resemble  hundai's to the greater degree so why spend the extra money? . In addition they all will do anything electronically but there is virtually NO choices in color of interior or exterior. Most new cars to me look like the old song " Boxes , little boxes and they all look just the same, and they all are made out of ticky tacky and there is a white one and a black one and a silver one and a gray one and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same". Sorry but I like colors and chrome and individuality and style. I am continually baffled why there are as many makes of cars still in existence given the aforementioned . Other than the Dodge Charger and Challenger the rest of the cars bore me to tears, people I know sometimes say " I saw you on the road , didn't you see me"?, I don't want to tell them that I try to avoid looking that close to most cars because I hate seeing them and some are so ugly that they offend me to look at them, I'll leave it at that not wanting to offend anyone. One Mans Opinion.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Steve Passmore on October 02, 2017, 04:21:57 AM
You're not alone Bill as I second that.   The problem now is that car design is driven fuel economy and the wind tunnel.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 02, 2017, 05:04:26 AM
The day they made rubber mouldings/weatherstrips to hold the glass, is the day they made it impossible to restore these cars.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 02, 2017, 08:36:20 AM
People, often the older generations, have been pondering and questioning the future of classic cars and the hobby (i.e. will modern cars of a given time be sought after as classics in the future) for ages and despite past doubts of some, the hobby and interest in classic cars has continued.   As far as tech features in today's cars, I think continuously advancing engineering and technology may make replicating or replacing today's parts in the future easier than some currently think.  People have also been critical of styling, cars looking too much alike, etc. dating back many many decades yet folks of those past generations of cars still find them nostalgically appealing as classics today.  In the future, I think today's cars will appeal as classics to today's younger generations just as yesterday's cars appeal to yesterday's younger generations today.

Whether or not environmental, in regard to gasoline driven cars, or safety regulations will affect use and ownership of today's cars in the future is still the bigger question to me.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: D.Smith on October 02, 2017, 08:51:11 AM
 

The reality is these cars are not made for collectors.  They are made for the new car buyer.   The parts are designed to last the length of the warranty.   They don't expect them to be on the road more than ten years considering how many miles the average person drives.   

The junkyards are full of cars that look nice but were too expensive to repair the mechanical or electrical systems.  Either the parts and labor are too expensive or the parts don't exist anymore.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 02, 2017, 09:42:16 AM
Quote from: D.Smith on October 02, 2017, 08:51:11 AM
The reality is these cars are not made for collectors.  They are made for the new car buyer.   The parts are designed to last the length of the warranty.   They don't expect them to be on the road more than ten years considering how many miles the average person drives.   

The junkyards are full of cars that look nice but were too expensive to repair the mechanical or electrical systems.  Either the parts and labor are too expensive or the parts don't exist anymore.

Actually, cars today on average last a lot longer and with many more miles than those of decades past (1980s, 70s, 60s, 50s, etc).  The junk or scrappage rate was notablly higher back then.   A big reason why the average age of cars on the road has increased so much over time, more than doubling between 1970 and today, is the overall improved reliability and durability of newer cars.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Caddy Wizard on October 02, 2017, 09:59:56 AM
I was a professional mechanic from 1973 to 1983 and can speak to the longevity of cars a bit.  Today's cars have much longer-lasting drivetrains than in the past, in part due to the use of synthetic lubricants.  The engines and transmissions typically go 200k or 300K miles these days.  The thing that kills off the cars now is all of the ancillary optional equipment.  For example, some Cadillacs have electro-magnetic fluid in the front struts and when those units fail, the cost of the struts often exceeds the value of the car.  Same thing for other fancy optional equipment.  The cooler the feature when new, the pricier it will be to fix when it is 10 years old.  To me, the smart play these days is to buy new cars with as few options as you can tolerate.  The basics of the car will last and last. 
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: TJ Hopland on October 02, 2017, 10:10:54 AM
Look at where we are today with 3d scanning and printing.  You can pretty much make your own parts now and the technology gets better and the price comes down every day.   As far as the computers and how fast they advance it won't be long before you can do some simple hacks to a watch to emulate and replace a cars computer.   I was recently introduced to a computer called a Raspberry Pi.   Its a full blown computer about the size of a deck of cars that cost $35.   People have written software for it to emulate computers up to about 10 years ago and use them to control some pretty sophisticated robots and such.   I bet someone a little smarter than me could make one run a car.  They may have already done it,  look at the aftermarket EFI systems that are out there today where the ECU is built into the throttle body that pretty much looks like a carb.   I'm sure those computers are more advanced than the OE's were using 5 years ago.   Its going to be the kid that is playing video games today decides he likes his dads 2005 in 2035 and makes it work.   
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: James Landi on October 02, 2017, 10:58:31 AM
A terrific conversation, and you gentlemen add so much subtle insight... while all the previous points are certainly germane to answering the overall thesis regarding the future of car hobbyists and car collectors, I find myself wondering whether car ownership in this age of the "sharing economy" will become an "antique" notion.  If millennials have little interest in car ownership, save for the utility of comfortable, safe transportation, then the concept of shared, fraction ownership in  driverless cars becomes more like a possible future norm.  Thus, no "pride in ownership" ---
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Lexi on October 02, 2017, 11:05:19 AM
All great comments, some humorous and from a boomer perspective I as well can't see why anyone would want to restore them given the obstacles noted. I believe that there will always be a select few who will for nostalgic reasons take the plunge, though the availability of products like gasoline and perhaps even certain lubricants may be a death blow to the 'hobby'. Gasoline powered vehicles will eventually disappear, first at the mass consumer level. Yes, 3-D printers will be a necessity as the deterioration of plastic parts will be a problem. Perhaps resto-mods will save some models-as electric drive trains replace the obsolete gasoline & hybrid engines of today and some buck-toothed geek will write a program to replace the failing computers of these cars.

Collecting on a widespread basis by the masses has generally been a phenomenon made largely possible by the birth of the middle class who had the discretionary income to indulge, as well as for other reasons. For example one did not see antique collecting generally among the masses in the 19th century; though a few great collections were established by the wealthy. A catastrophic event would also relegate antique car restoration and other such 'leisure' activities to the back burner.

Currently our biggest issue is the change in mind set that I have seen among our young. For a number of reasons they are generally not as interested in collecting or working with their hands; nor do they seem to have the same interest in historical objects that many of our generation demonstrated. Indeed, in contrast the so-called 'DIY' generation as well as the boom in collecting that was noted after WWII is well documented. Collectively, our young have more of a minimalist mentality perhaps in part fueled by a lack of funds and space to engage in the hobby, but also fueled by the 'magic of the box' (micro technology). Yes I know there are always exceptions, but a 'head count' at car shows as well as at other venues such as antique & photographic shows for example, demonstrate this. I have seen this trend developing over many years. Demographic changes also come into play. I believe it is human nature not to re-invent the wheel so to speak, and the impetus for the young is to move forward and explore new technological worlds.

Way down the road one will have to go to a museum and/or visit a wealthy collector to see only the very best automobiles that have survived. As an analogy how many of us currently own and drive restored antique horse drawn carriages? History is repeating itself and we are all active participants in that system. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: robert G. smits on October 02, 2017, 01:20:15 PM
I think James has hit it on the head.   After the Dallas Mecum a couple of weeks ago my wife wanted to try a 4star Indian restaurant located in a community setting.  Not sure I would have found it even with GPS.  Solution UBER.  The trip both ways was less than $20 total.  Got me thinking how convenient this was.  Everything done on my iPhone and no need for cash or credit card.  When you couple this with driverless transportation in the future I can see little need for owning a car, especially when they all look the same. When you calculate the daily cost of owning a $40-60K auto you car afford a bunch of Uber trips. I don't think the prospects for expanding the car collector population to the younger generation looks all that bright right now.  Hope I am wrong.  Bob Smits #2426
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Lexi on October 02, 2017, 04:17:18 PM
Bob's point is what I refer to as the "Paradigm Shift", hence my comment in my last post about us not owning horse drawn antique carriages. I don't place the same emphasis though on how economical car ownership is, especially classic cars. Owning a classic car is not practical, rather it is a luxury that to many represents a link to their past, a memory, for example. None of us really 'needs' to own a classic car. Need is not the issue, at least not in the usual meaning of the word. The issue is what drives certain individuals to 'collect' and preserve a portion of our heritage be it antique autos or anything else, irregardless of the cost of ownership and operation. That entire paradigm is shifting.

I would agree that as technology advances the generation of the day will probably have less interest in old cars for example, as automobiles will form less of their paradigm. The situation extends beyond the classic car world. For example a lot of young people find it odd that I wear a wrist watch! Some of them find it odd that I still prefer to read a real book as opposed to e-books, etc. They use their cell phones instead to obtain that information. Perhaps most important is that shift appears to have taken root now, which is at a time when the use of an automobile for example, is still important in our society.

The obsolescence & lack of convenience of vintage autos can only take us so far in explaining what is and what may happen to the classic car world. It certainly appears to be a subset of a larger phenomenon at work-where individuals appear to care less for history and preservation of objects, (not just old cars), than they do for instant gratification with the 'magic box' (micro technology). It is part of what is going on, which may explain why at car shows I am routinely asked what kind of gas mileage my car gets, rather than inquiries related to the historical importance of the vehicle. Bob's prediction is I think unfortunately accurate though other factors extend beyond the classic car world. Bob also remarked (echoed by others) that most of the new cars all look a like. Perhaps there is less inclination for many to covet and embrace the new automobile thus hastening it's decline as a status symbol to a mere utilitarian object with no historical value (and a loss in pride of ownership as James put it)? The future for car collecting and interest in vintage autos appears bleak, in my opinion. Clay/Lexi                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: James Landi on October 02, 2017, 06:30:50 PM
 Understood from the "macro-level,"  Thomas Friedman's new book THANK YOU FOR BEING LATE  http://www.thomaslfriedman.com/thank-you-for-being-late/  posits the thesis that with the advent of the "smart phone" in 2007, everything changed.  Although we've referenced some of these salient  changes in our culture in this thread for us Cadillac enthusiasts, the cultural changes that Friedman discusses will have you shaking your head in agreement-- for as you well know, we senior citizens often "sense" change from the perspective of experience, age, and accumulated wisdom, yet brilliantly articulating and weaving a fascinating narrative is the stuff that talented folks like Friedman do best.  I recommend the book to you-- it's a quick read and my sense is that you'll enjoy it.  Happy day,  James   
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Lexi on October 02, 2017, 08:03:06 PM
James sounds like a book that I shall have to look into. I remember Alvin Toffler's Future Shock from 1970, and as I recall, his comments on the disposable goods society mentality; i.e. where the cost of repair outweighs the cost to buy new-would further negatively impact societal views on objects. Certainly a perspective that is not foreign to car people (and insurance companies following a claim!). The impact of rapid change on society and individuals was addressed in this work. Friedman's book sounds like a great read and perhaps an interesting companion piece to Toffler's work, (shaking my head in agreement right now!). Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: James Landi on October 02, 2017, 09:44:23 PM
Clay--- you certainly "nailed" the connection... I recall with Toffler that he gave voice to the notion that the modern t.v. viewer (back 40 years ago) was a passive observer, and therefore a generation of children would be observing rather than living and forming a direct connection with the life they were fractionally living... when you assess the engagement and effort that attracts folks to our old Cadillac hobby, it's all about a direct connection with a piece of automotive history and American culture that far exceeds the significance of the vehicle itself.    Happy day,  James
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Lexi on October 02, 2017, 10:01:17 PM
Wow So well put and dead on! It is like what a Caddy fanatic buddy of mine had printed on a T shirt of his. "Not just a lifestyle". Yes, loving the old cars is only part of it. You got that right. Chat later. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Mike Josephic CLC #3877 on October 03, 2017, 06:10:00 PM
This topic comes up about on an annual basis -- but this is one of the better threads
on the subject I've seen.

I agree with most of what has been posted, especially concerning the "restorability"
of the newer cars.  Automotive plastics are meant for disposable parts.  I know
since I worked for a company that supplied the basic materials that you see in
most of the vehicles out there.  They have a life span of maybe 10 years +/-
according to where you live (sunlight, temperature, humidity etc.).  Who will
make these parts when the supply runs out?  Some of these are quite large and complex.  I don't see them being easily and cost effectively reproduced, despite
the wonderful 3D printers that are coming to pass.

The other issue mentioned which is critical is the electronics.  Being a HAM radio
guy for many years I know a bit about that subject.  Most of the gizmos that run
our vehicles are not easily rebuilt.  Like many of the other parts, they are
considered to be disposable.  The belief that somebody will come up with an easy
way to take the place of ALL the computer interfaces and circuit boards in a
modern car is wishful thinking.  There are just too many.

Mike 
Title: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: bcroe on October 03, 2017, 07:34:30 PM
Quote from: Mike Josephic  CLC #3877
The other issue mentioned which is critical is the electronics.  Being a HAM radio
guy for many years I know a bit about that subject.  Most of the gizmos that run
our vehicles are not easily rebuilt.  Like many of the other parts, they are
considered to be disposable.  The belief that somebody will come up with an easy
way to take the place of ALL the computer interfaces and circuit boards in a
modern car is wishful thinking.  There are just too many.  Mike   

That is the bottom line.  Those who think the electronics will continue to be
available don't understand the problems.  Without working electronics, you
just have a stationary museum piece.  Being a HAM since 1958 and a career
in the industry, this is not just a bystanders opinion. 

As for reliability, I see it as steadily increasing, with lower maintenance, for
8 decades.  Then I see maintenance intervals continue to increase, but car
complexity explodes.  The individual parts may be as reliable as ever, or a
little bit more.  But the number of things to go wrong degrades the overall
reliability.  The 79 I drove today has been in recent times been to Canada,
Florida, California, and New Hampshire with complete reliability.  My 77
has this bumper sticker.  Bruce Roe
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: gkhashem on October 04, 2017, 06:20:12 PM
As I have suspected the electronics will be a major issue.

How about the ECM Computer in cars into the 1980s. How often do they fail and they do seem repairable? Also the BCM on later cars?

Will this be a problem?
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Mike Josephic CLC #3877 on October 04, 2017, 07:34:23 PM
Back in the day, about 25-30 years ago, these were being rebuilt and the
old units recycled for sale.  Here is a rebuilder I found in a quick search:
https://carcomputerexchange.com

I never used these people, but just wanted to show you that somebody
is still doing this!

My wife had an '81 Olds Toronado that she really loved and her car's
unit went bad. I replaced it with a refurbished unit and gave back the old
unit for credit. This was in 1990.  It took about 15 minutes.

Mike
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 05, 2017, 03:59:29 AM
The electronics will be the biggest issue here obviously, but soft parts such as weather stripping, interior bits and pieces, trim items and the likes will also be a challenge to obtain depending on how many cars were sold at the time, and how many are actually still around in 20-50 years from now.

From my observation, and currently owning a new car, the new cars simply aren't built to last 50 years like some of the old school Cadillacs were before plastics took over everything.

The 30's all the way up into the 70's, Cadillac used a lot of metal for its parts, everything, for the most part, was heavy duty and over-engineered at times, flash forward to the 90's and 2000's, all that long lasting steel, has now given way to more and more plastic parts, composite materials and other lightweight materials that wont hold up for decades.

So say if there's a light dent on a fender, on an old school Cad, you could just knock the dent out and have a body shop fix it, on one of these of modern Cads, you'll most likely have to replace the entire fender. So some things aren't as durable as they used to be, exterior door handles are one of them as they use plastic hinges and will eventually break.

Interior plastics and seats also aren't as durable, as high quality, or strongly put together like a 30's-60's Cad.

The simplicity of the older cars is what makes them so great and allows them to keep being around for another 50 years, electronics in cars are a wonderful thing, but to be honest, when I get behind my 64 Deville, it performs just as well if not better than my 17 Impala, and is way more comfortable than the Impala too. But trying to restore it in 30 years, forget it!

My Cad is considered ancient in comparison to my new Impala, but with all the improvements made to modern cars, they fail to isolate you from the bad roads, and also fail to give you that extreme comfort like the old cars did.

Even with new technology that goes into suspension components including new designs, the Short Arm-Long Arm suspension with a rear multilink setup is still superior in ride quality and road isolation than any FWD.

BTW parts will be astronomical for these cars in the future, and it honestly won't be worth it.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: James Landi on October 05, 2017, 08:11:43 AM
Mr. Cadillacky nailed it... I absolutely love driving and admiring  my 2007 XLR-- it's an extraordinary piece of refined design and engineering, but God forbid someone backs into one of my head lights or tail lights-- these electronic components and there associate LED technologies are not our 1057 dual filament variety! So many examples of pre-80's Cadillacs were literally run into the ground, having survived a series of owners and finally becoming the cheap used car that provided adequate transportation for someone who had only a few hundred dollars to spend.  On this blog, we see evidence of these sad, very wore out cars... with interiors that are so worn, the final owner was sitting on front seat springs.  While we all believe contemporary car engineering can provide a couple of hundred thousand mile of decent , reliable transportation, the true challenge for modern automotive technology is not mileage, it's age. 
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 05, 2017, 09:42:15 AM
Below is an article from 1955 reflecting views on "classics" and "modern cars" of that time.  While makes, models and model years may change, the new/modern vs. classic comments, or at least sentiments, of some classic enthusiasts carry through generation after generation e.g. new cars all look alike, have too many gadgets, etc.


Fast Growing Club of Ancient Auto Owners Look on New Cars With Disdain
New York (U.P.) â€" Anybody got an old beat-up Duisenberg?   Or maybe an Auburn of Cord?  Or a rusty, dusty Marmon 16?
   Don’t throw it away.  It’s a classic.  Restore it â€" and live.
   There’s a fast-growing club here with members in all states and in many foreign countries that looks upon modern motor car styling with a tolerant disdain best expressed by the word, “Ugh.”  They call it the “bathtub, or bubble, era” of automobile design.
   These men, and some women, of rugged tastes for individual design, who thrill to ownership of a car of classic, vertical lines and like to commune with a mighty motor through a lever to the transmission, hark back to the late 1920’s and the 1930’s as the golden era of autos.
   They want a car with two big standout headlights, proud and alone at the prow…four wheels spinning bright and nude, uncovered by skirts dropping down from the fenders…running boards, beautiful in utility.
   They like the feel of the road through the wheel in their hands.
   They tremble at the mighty names of Stutz, Franklin, Pierce-Arrow, Cord, Auburn, Marmon, Packard, DuPont, Duisenberg, Rolls-Royce and Kissel White Eagle.  They bow at the great name of Isotta Franschini.
   â€œThe Classic Car Club of America” started in 1952 with 80 members.  Now it has more than 1000.  They’re not worshipers of antiques.  Their constitution specifies that the classic is one of the super-fine cars built between 1925 and 1942.  They believe that the real classics, despite their age, are right now the finest cars in the world.
   â€œA lot of us are die-hard classicists,” said their president, Arthur Perrow, and encyclopedia editor, “figure they haven’t made any classics since the period bounded by 1928 and 1933.  After that, the builders started in with phony streamlining, skirts on fenders, bulbous bodies, superfluous metal.  They covered the radiator with big metal so it wouldn’t cool the car, and shoved it forward of the axle.
   â€œWe’re interested in the discovery, rescuing, and restoring of a classic.  It breaks our hearts to see it sit there and rot.”
   The club has a monthly bulletin and a quarterly magazine.  The regional clubs all over the country have monthly “meets” with driving, performance, and style competition.  There are three big national contents annually, for which owners prep and groom the old beauties.
   They have their own language.  “Rough” means a classic discovered dirty, rusty and falling apart.  When it’s been restored to perfect mechanical condition, it’s “mint.”  An “iron” is a heavy, cumbersome, old car; an old limousine with hard top and four doors and little style.
   Instead of horsepower, they’re likely to say reverently that a certain number of “horses live under the hood.”  The Duisenberg Model J, dating from 1927 to 1936, when supercharged had 320 horses living riotously under the hood, more than any car made today, Perrow said.
   As for prices, the Duisenberg ran from $10,000 to $25,000 new.  Now you may get one rough for $1000 or less and restore it for $2000 to $5000.  The classic lovers exchange such information by grapevine.
   Gordon Webber, the first president, believes the fast club growth reflects “people’s revolt against standardized living, against all cars’ looking alike, as they do now; it’s a return to individuality.”
   Webber said the complaint against modern cars is that “they’re too heavy, gross of line; squashy on the curves, tires squeal; don’t have the roadability and durability of the classic, don’t have the workmanship.”
   Perrow puts it this way: “Modern cars are too full of gadgets, too easy to operate.  It’s like sitting in a living room and pushing a button.  We like some movement.  We like the gear shift on the gear box, like the feel of shifting the gears, when you get to know your own transmission.”
   Classic owners like to make the meets family affairs.  They put a lunch hamper, and the whole family, in the phaeton on week ends and let the finely-tooled engine rasp throatily across the miles.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 59-in-pieces on October 05, 2017, 12:37:50 PM
Well once again late to the party.
But I will add my "me too - me too" to the mix.
Without throwing mud - the Alante was likely the older brother of the XLR.
And what I recall of the discussions surrounding that car as it aged, was "be careful if the circuit board goes out - it's a ton of money". NO personal knowledge - just what I read.
Right or wrong, it does put a fine point to the discussion of electronics and how it can color the value of a car going forward.

Those of you who own or know the XLR, there is hardly any metal in the car - just plastic every where - backed by very sophisticated electronics that operate just about everything you touch.
But thank GOD there is a metal mechanical handle next to the seat bottom at the floor (forget reaching it if you are a bit full figured as myself) that opens the door by a cable when the power is lost - bad battery - to release the electronic door locks.
And by the way - lose power and NOTHING works - windows, doors, horn, ignition - NOTHING.
How do I know this, I was trapped in the car on a Cadillac dealer's showroom floor - pounding on the windows to draw attention to escape.
Big dumb me - I still bought an XLR - just not that one - I love that car (in spite of its weaknesses).
I also have to believe that there will always be a cottage business that provides electronic repairs - replacements with refurbished - or smaller more powerful replacement modals - plug and play (at a cost for sure).
I don't believe that our electronic classics are doomed to be huge lawn art, or that they will rust away - after all they're made mostly of plastics.
Have fun,
Steve B.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: cadillac ken on October 05, 2017, 01:20:32 PM
Future of of classic cars is indeed dim. :(

Current cars as well as those of the '90's will be un-restorable.  Owed to the points many others have made here about the electronics, plastic parts, and most importantly, the costs.

As a restoration / custom shop owner for over 26 years (who has built 6 figure cars) I can say with absolute certainty, the hobby is fading out-- even when talking about the cars we traditionally think of as Collectible (30's through the 60's). 

Collectors with millions to spend buy done cars at the big auctions.  They do not have the patience or want to "build" a car.  And at the other end working class folks do not have the extra cash to "do" a car.  Despite the TV shows that make it seem like tons of cars are being built, the reality is this hobby is in sever atrophy and very few projects, for whatever the reasons, are not making sense to very many folks these days.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Bob Hoffmann CLC#96 on October 05, 2017, 01:54:03 PM
Ken,
I agree!!!
Bob
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 06, 2017, 06:22:49 AM
In all honesty, once Cadillacs became less imposing, less grandiose, less flashy, which happens to be the 1980’s on up years is probably the only era of cars aren’t worth saving because the issue with advanced tech controlling the engine components, lower quality materials used overall compared to decades before, and less than appealing styling.

Do i expect my 94 Fleetwood to be around for another 20 years? My guess is “I hope so” if I can still find  a PCM for it, sensors and other electronic parts for it in that time. I feel if anything takes out my 94, it will be a computer related issue that’ll be irreplaceable and render it undrivable.

Then it’s off to the junker.

My 64 on the other hand will keep on going as long they’re parts for it, no sensors to worry about, no expensive computer controlled parts to fail, expensive and costly suspension components or anything that will make it impossible to fix and keep it on road.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 59-in-pieces on October 06, 2017, 12:59:30 PM
I did have a thought or two left after reading all the negative posts causing the dark side in me to well up.
Every conceivable luxury or safety device is readily available on an economy "import" - so why would you buy a Cadillac.
Why buy, certainly not because of its cutting edge design - prestige logo, not any more.
Just a bunch of aging grumpy old men hankering for the past hay days, while their kids and grand kids shake their heads and wonder why grandpa is getting so wrapped around the axle about a Cadillac.
It's easy, the kids have no reference to the past - it's: no work for their entitlements, fast food, disposable everything, lease not buy, change is good and the faster the better, out with the old and in with the new, no touch stones.
Conclusions - our cars are anachronisms, and so are we - "a person or a thing that is chronologically out of place; especially one from a former age that is incongruous in the present...".
Our legacies are our classics to be sold for cash - for the next "wiz-bang" by our heirs.
Please pardon my doom and gloom - I guess I will go clean the whitewalls on my car - Oh! wait! that's out of place these days too.
Have fun, if and when you can - for as long as you can,
Steve B
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 06, 2017, 03:15:25 PM
The negativity or doom and gloom feeling expressed today is not unlike the feelings some had 10, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60+ years ago yet the hobby has continued to evolve and move forward with new faces, new models, etc.  Classic car enthusiasts have long had disdain for new cars, doubts about young people's interest/enthusiasm, doubts that modern cars of a given time would have appeal as classics in the future, doubts that modern cars with all their gadgets would be repairable in the future, etc.  Back in the 1950s, a car as new as 13 years old was viewed as a classic by the Classic Car Club of America and that’s only a little older than even the average age of cars on the road these days.

People didn't know what the future held for the classic car hobby decades ago and people today don't know what the future of the hobby will be down the road especially as new technologies (3D printing is just the beginning) are created and improved.  Time will tell.....meanwhile, enjoy the hobby and classics of today! :)
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: gkhashem on October 06, 2017, 04:29:11 PM
While not happening soon, it will someday. This is the new reality no guessing NO AGREEING, all these opinions may not matter.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/11/autos/countries-banning-diesel-gas-cars/index.html

http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/california-mulls-combustion-engine-car-ban-after-similar-uk-france-and-china


Then what will you do?  Maybe only the super rich can play this game if there is any fuel to be had. If not then that's it.

Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on October 06, 2017, 04:44:37 PM
 I have found all the replies to my original topic, to be both very interesting and informative.  It appears as though many find the future and interest of classic cars to be vanishing for a few different reasons.  Mainly interest and money.  Yes, there have been the naysayers in the past that predicted the doom of classic cars.  They were proven to be in error.  Today with all the advancements in electronic technology, it is doubtful many will attempt to restore older cars.  Regards to the televised auto auctions, it does appear that the classic car "hobby" is, if not already, a rich mans game.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 07, 2017, 04:10:52 AM
Quote from: e.mason on October 06, 2017, 04:44:37 PM
I have found all the replies to my original topic, to be both very interesting and informative.  It appears as though many find the future and interest of classic cars to be vanishing for a few different reasons.  Mainly interest and money.  Yes, there have been the naysayers in the past that predicted the doom of classic cars.  They were proven to be in error.  Today with all the advancements in electronic technology, it is doubtful many will attempt to restore older cars.  Regards to the televised auto auctions, it does appear that the classic car "hobby" is, if not already, a rich mans game.

It is becoming a rich man's game for sure. All those restoration shop shows on TV are actually making the hobby unattainable to the regular Joe.

If you think about it, our hobby is very very expensive and takes up a lot of our time. I have spent thousands of dollars just on the little stuff, and the paint job alone on my 64 would cost upwards of $10,000 which is insane!

I think it comes down to what your priorities are, and how good you want your car to look and run. I am actually satisfied with the way my 64 is, and if there was anything major I would do to it, the engine, trans, and drivetrain would all be rebuilt, including getting the A/C to work.

But other than that, I'm ok with it having some tiny dents, minor rust, cracked driver's seat, and light scratches. Sometimes it's stress relieving not being so picky and your car being perfect in this hobby for the sake of your well being.

3D printing will truly allow old parts that aren't made anymore possible again. I just hope someone gets into the business and will start making hard parts for our old Cadillac's so we can keep driving them until we're in the grave. :)

What will derail our hobby, and the future of it, is autonomous vehicles that will be mandatory to own in the near future. The government is already working on it, and personally, it's not right what they're trying to do.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2017/09/congress-will-bombarded-autonomous-car-propaganda-week/
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 07, 2017, 09:14:10 AM
Quote from: gkhashem on October 06, 2017, 04:29:11 PM
While not happening soon, it will someday. This is the new reality no guessing NO AGREEING, all these opinions may not matter.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/11/autos/countries-banning-diesel-gas-cars/index.html

http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/california-mulls-combustion-engine-car-ban-after-similar-uk-france-and-china


Then what will you do?  Maybe only the super rich can play this game if there is any fuel to be had. If not then that's it.

Environmental and safety regulations, as I stated in my first post in this thread, are definitely a potential threat to the use of older cars but at the same time, threats to ban gasoline cars are nothing new even here in the U.S.

Back in the mid and late 1960s, the California State Senate voted to consider banning gasoline cars from California highways by 1975.  It never happened.

In the early 1970s, New York state considered a bill that would ban the registration of new gasoline cars in the state after 1975.  It never happened.

Over the decades, other states and cities and even the federal government have considered restrictions or banning of gasoline cars but it never happened.  Yes, it may actually happen some day but today's threats are nothing new and have been out there in one form or another for a very long time.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 07, 2017, 08:17:05 PM
What kind of kick do politicians get from trying to ban things? Is it the power trip mindset some of these guys have that makes them act this way or what?

They don’t understand that millions of Americans will have gasoline powered cars 50 years from now, they can’t just expect everyone to fully convert to electric cars or autonomous vehicles as the economics don’t pan out.

It’s unrealistic and very political at the end of the day.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Bill Young on October 07, 2017, 08:55:26 PM
Mr. Asaro makes a good point about Government regulation. I will not get political , however I'll just say My Wife and I moved from Western New York State to Florida not principally for the weather but rather at age 62 and 61 we could no longer afford to live there. I have a saying that in New York State everything is either illegal, you got to have a license for it, or it is taxed to death. This society is an expensive place to live in general and way too expensive in particular locales. Cars that cost as much as houses used to that have electronics that are horribly expensive to replace and are not repairable are the bain of the existence of a poorer Family person. Requiring people to buy unaffordable cars they cannot then later afford to fix is not a sustainable solution to internal cumbustion cars of the past that were affordable to buy and affordable to fix.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Bobby B on October 07, 2017, 11:08:03 PM
Quote from: Bill Young on October 07, 2017, 08:55:26 PM
I will not get political , however I'll just say My Wife and I moved from Western New York State to Florida not principally for the weather but rather at age 62 and 61 we could no longer afford to live there. I have a saying that in New York State everything is either illegal, you got to have a license for it, or it is taxed to death. This society is an expensive place to live in general and way too expensive in particular locales.

Bill,
  Hi. This is why most of the population Lease now. I don't believe in it. We own all our cars outright. To each his own....I guess it gets you into a high end vehicle that you really can't afford to buy, and makes you feel good. That is, unless your accountant instructs you to do so because you'll give the money back to the Government anyway, so you might as well enjoy a brand new car every few years. And Bill, New Jersey is just as bad as New York. Crazy Taxes, Over priced Auto Insurance, and you need a Permit or License to do just about anything. The only thing keeping me here is work.....
                                                                                                     Bobby
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Scot Minesinger on October 08, 2017, 09:16:28 AM
I agree with 98% of the posts on this thread.

I like to share my 1970 Cadillacs, and when young people ride in them or see me driving down the road it is always positive.  To counter this trend, share your classic by driving it and bringing it out in public.  Take your relatives for rides and let everyone you can enjoy it too.  Think about the time you first saw a car you had to have, it did not take long to make a connection - just a few moments.  If we don't let the public know that they are out there, they will never know.

Driving is less fun today than back in the 1950 thru 1970's.  After driving to and from Hershey, PA for their 10-4 thru 10-7-17 show from Virginia (about 150 miles one way), I can understand the younger generation's perspective.  The trip there was a beautiful day but traffic getting out of DC metro area even after rush hour would normally be over was a nightmare due to construction and accidents.  It would have been nice to be riding in a self driving car and get some work done for my day job via e-mail.  Then on the way back traffic and rain, again self driving would have been nice.  The show was good but the drive to and from was a bummer compared to years past.  So I kind of get it, using a washing machine for laundry is not fun and neither was using a car to get to Hershey - utilitarian appliance like.  If it were not for Amazon type businesses, working from home, bank apps for deposits and etc., the roads would be so clogged I don't know what we would do today.

Oh well, will try and make the best of it!
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 08, 2017, 09:19:33 AM
Quote from: Bill Young on October 07, 2017, 08:55:26 PM
Cars that cost as much as houses used to that have electronics that are horribly expensive to replace and are not repairable are the bain of the existence of a poorer Family person. Requiring people to buy unaffordable cars they cannot then later afford to fix is not a sustainable solution to internal cumbustion cars of the past that were affordable to buy and affordable to fix.

That’s long been true (cars costing as much as houses once did).  A big part of it is simply inflation.  In many cases, however, cars are actually more affordable today thanks to lower pricing combined with longer term financing, leasing, better warranties, better reliability and durability (lasting longer on average), etc.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 08, 2017, 09:22:31 AM
Quote from: Bobby B on October 07, 2017, 11:08:03 PM
This is why most of the population Lease now.

Not true.  Most people still buy.  While leasing has significantly increased in popularity, still only around 30% or so of new cars are leased right now and practically no used cars are leased.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 08, 2017, 09:31:23 AM
Quote from: StevenTuck on October 08, 2017, 07:35:53 AM
After reading so many views, I get back to my original reply. Foremost there has to be interest in collecting a vehicle. The current generation, with some very few exceptions, has no interest in collecting a vehicle. The reason is they have no personal connection to a vehicle.

I recently watch a interview with Bill Clinton and George Bush who seem to be more friends now than rivals. Bill, a baby boomer, said he is one of the few alive who didn't grow up with a TV, as such the family had to communicate. The only communication todays generation knows is via a cell phone and texting, facebook and twitter. The personal connection between two humans is lost.

Unlike our generation, they can communicate with someone by cell phone, no need to drive over to a friends house to visit. I discovered this first hand with my niece who opted to text her boyfriend rather than go out on a date. A date that would require a vehicle to get them there.

Proof is in the pudding they say and about five years ago for the first time ever the number of sixteen year olds getting their drivers license had dropped. The interest in driving a vehicle is waning. Therefore, the current generation views a vehicle as utilitarian much like a refrigerator. It is something that they have that makes life easier. It serves that purpose and nothing more. So do you think people will be collecting refrigerators? I think not.

A number of reports and articles out there have largely debunked the theory that young people lack interest in cars.  In part, one must consider that we went through one of the most difficult economic periods in more than a generation not too long ago and it was especially tough for younger people.  Other factors include more and more h.s. graduates going to college (college costs come first, may not need a car far commuting until after college, etc).   However, the percentage of 20 to 24 year olds with driver’s licenses today, around 78%, is still not much different (and sometimes even higher) than it was in the 1960s and other at least earlier decades despite the above mentioned factors.

Besides, the percentage of people who are car or classic car enthusiasts and actively engaged in the hobby has always been relatively small and so those who aren’t choosing to get their license at a young age probably aren't now and would never become enthusiasts.  Driver's license or not, they would've been part of the much larger non-enthusiast population anyway.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: cadillac ken on October 08, 2017, 12:47:02 PM
Being in the business of restoring and customizing vehicles I have read with great interest all the posts here.  And there are a whole lot of great points made. 

Stepping back to look at the big picture I see it as a money thing-- as it almost always is for every facet of life.  How do I want to spend? What do I have to spend on things in my life.  And how important to me are the things I'm considering spending my money on.  I truly believe this crosses all lines of age or gender.  Add to this, as it has been pointed out, the "screens generation" have virtually no interest in a car much less a classic restoration.

As for the restoration or future of classic cars (as the title of this thread is) all of these points result in the above questions folks ask themselves and are a conglomeration of a waning interest in this hobby of old cars.   

And at some point we have to realize that there are a lot of cars out there that have been refurbished, restored, re-done, that are pretty nice cars that can almost in every instance be had for a fraction of the cost to bring that car to it's current state of beauty and reliability.  And even still, the price tag is usually too steep for the "average" buyer.  I see it in my business all the time.  Folks want to believe, very badly, that they can "do" the car they dream of for a price they have decided they can afford.  Sadly I have turned away more and more customers after we have a long talk in my office about how I just don't see the end of their project coming in on "their budget".  It's why I often say (with much consternation) that I can no longer build cars for folks who work for a living.  I often think of my first job at a custom shop almost 45 years ago. We painted a Funny Car for a local mechanic.  Hard to believe a local mechanic could afford to race a Funny Car these days...

We all know this hobby is expensive.  Because life is expensive.  We almost never see a price on a new "whatever" that we think is in line with what we though before we went shopping for that item.  And therein is the problem.  Less money to spend on the things you want since you end up spending so much on the the things you need.  Not to mention with the "Chinese invasion" we end  up buying the same things over and over again as nothing lasts anymore= less $$ to spend on fun stuff.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Bobby B on October 08, 2017, 02:18:32 PM
Ken,
Great Post.....
              Bobby
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: jdemerson on October 08, 2017, 03:07:42 PM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on October 08, 2017, 09:31:23 AM
A number of reports and articles out there have largely debunked the theory that young people lack interest in cars.  In part, one must consider that we went through one of the most difficult economic periods in more than a generation not too long ago and it was especially tough for younger people.  Other factors include more and more h.s. graduates going to college (college costs come first, may not need a car far commuting until after college, etc).   However, the percentage of 20 to 24 year olds with driver’s licenses today, around 78%, is still not much different (and sometimes even higher) than it was in the 1960s and other at least earlier decades despite the above mentioned factors.

Besides, the percentage of people who are car or classic car enthusiasts and actively engaged in the hobby has always been relatively small and so those who aren’t choosing to get their license at a young age probably aren't now and would never become enthusiasts.  Driver's license or not, they would've been part of the much larger non-enthusiast population anyway.

I'll join Mr. Langley in questioning the negativism and skepticism that generally prevails in these conversations (as interesting and stimulating as they are!). There is still interest in cars among younger people. Two weeks ago I attended an annual local car show in the tiny town of Bristol, Vermont. There were 314 cars there (an all-time record), including my '52 Cadillac. Some were original and valuable (e.g., a perfect 1955 Packard Series 400 two-door hardtop, and a '66 or '67 Mustang Shelby GT350H). But many were cars that were modified to fit the interests, imaginations, and creative minds of their owners.  There were MANY young people who work on their cars and enjoy them as much as those in my generation  40 or 50 years ago. Many of the youngest folks have small Hondas, Mazdas, and VWs, and though not my cup of tea, those are quite amazing. There also were several pre-WWII cars there, though those don't hold the interest of the younger crowd. What was amazing is the VARIETY of cars and trucks on the field.

    Sure some problems will need to be solved in the future if the hobby is to continue. But somehow the use of 3D printer technology, and/or fabrication of electronic components, and/or use of improving plastics and carbon fibre will likely keep the hobby going at a level not unlike what we have known. The hobby will necessarily change in various ways, but it probably won't disappear.

    Mr. Langley is right in noting that there have been plenty of dire predictions over many decades. I can recall when some collectors thought that no car built after WWII could ever be worth preserving or restoring. Hmmn... '53 Eldorado anyone? '59 Seville?  '64 GTO? '67 Eldorado? '69 Z28 Camaro?  Perhaps the time when pessimism was greatest was in the '70s and '80s, beginning in 1973. I for one am far more positive about the future of the old-car hobby and restoration today than I was in the mid-70s -- if for no other reason than there are many more models from the past two decades that are WORTH preserving or restoring.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac Series 62 Sedan 6219X
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on October 08, 2017, 05:09:02 PM
I've commented on this subject many times in the past when brought up and simply add my two cents that the reports of the demise of the old car hobby have been greatly exaggerated.

I'm certain industry statistics would also point to a robust vintage car industry enjoying good health. If credible evidence exists to the contrary, I'd be interested in hearing it. To date, everything I've heard has been anecdotal.

BAC...maybe this is something you can look into using your excellent research skills.  ;)
Title: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: bcroe on October 08, 2017, 05:34:51 PM
I'll add when I was in school some handy kids would get an old car
and get it going because they didn't have the means to get a new car. 
It saved them money/debt.  Soon I found slightly used cars could be
picked up for a small fraction of new, then I would drive them 3 to 5
times as far as the original owner.  Fixing it yourself saved a fortune
too, you could learn how if you kept the car long enough.  But the
reasons I fixed was to get the quality work I expected, and it was
more convenient than schedules, pickup, etc. 

More recently my cars perform far better, and need far less maintenance,
than my first ones.  The distance driven is heading past 300,000 miles,
and I just stopped buying cars, esp current models.  This is REALLY
saving me a fortune.  My newest engine/trans is 1979, bodies
vary around that.  Bruce Roe

Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Lexi on October 09, 2017, 01:51:17 AM
Yes, many of us are pessimists but we are rarely disappointed! The 'hobby' won't disappear but it's survival will be fraught with challenges that will make owning and operating a classic car more problematic. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 09, 2017, 03:02:14 AM
As a millennial, I got to tell you older guys here, there’s hardly any interest in classic cars within my generation. The majority of local car shows I’ve attended (and I've been to many) I don’t think I’ve seen a guy in his 20’s or 30’s owning any of the cars on display.

The youngest looking owners are in there 40’s, and 90% of the rest are 50 on up.

We can debate this topic forever, but the 2 biggest issues that we can agree on is that the hobby is very pricey, time consuming, and what hasn’t been discussed, is most young people don’t have a place to store these cars. If you don’t own a home, it’s really hard to continue the hobby if it’s always on the street and you have no place to work on it.

Financial burdens like student loan debt, and career driven people simply don’t have the time nor the interest on owning a classic compared to a working class individual with no responsibilities, still lives at home, and has the time to give the car attention.

I can see the sporty imports being collectibles to young people today, like old 90’s Honda’s, Nissans I grew up with, which are popular among Asian Americans, but on a overall level, classic domestics are a dying breed. I’m telling you guys, every car show that is classic American driven, young people aren’t the owners of these cars, all the hot rods, all the muscle cars all the 1920’s-40’s antique rides,  are all owned by old dudes. The spectators are young of course, but that’s about it.


I have hope for the hobby but I’m also realistic in my observations.

Being an old soul at heart, i truly believe my taste are unique for my age. America at one point in time used to build magnificently beautiful things, from clothing, furniture,  to architectural wonders, stylish cool cars, well built super long lasting appliances and a hard working industrial spirit that is sadly long gone.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on October 09, 2017, 04:58:28 AM
Well said Mr. Asaro.

My own purchase of a collector car was sort of later in life, and hopefully, I will be able to realise a reasonable price when I am forced to sell, due to age, and having to pass in my Drivers Licence, which one day will happen.

I am even rationalising right now, as I know it will be impossible to find a retirement complex with a three car garage and a car port for the boat.   Yes, got to plan for the future as it will only be 30 years till I reach 100.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Jim Miller on October 09, 2017, 07:26:48 AM
The world does change, and I concluded I'm a visitor on the 21st century, but three communities around me have "car" gatherings once a week. Young and old alike participate. Some classics, some modifides, but usually a decent crowd. If we want to see classic collecting remain vibrant we need participation and outreach. I drive my car couple times a week and always receive comments and wishful looks (just like I used to do). Any kid under 12 years old goes crazy seeing our cars because they look like the Pixar movie Cars. Could not ask for better promotion. We should have video posting or links on our website of riding in the front seat of our cars. Looking down those hoods, even in a video experience, is neat. As members, we should collect email contacts of local car groups we can feed into CLC and then do a email blast for Grand National, Hershey, Fall Festival, etc. to a wider group. Maybe wishful thinking, but I'm optimistic.
Jim Miller
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: James Landi on October 09, 2017, 08:30:46 AM
When "all's said and done," the CLC leadership and our extraordinarily talented "Self Starter" editor and writer, Mr. Stewart, as well as this excellent interactive website unite us, in spite of our physically diverse locations on the globe.  As was well said, in the previous post, supporting local and regional events and staying active and supportive of the CLC and its mission and core values are personal commitments we make, not simply to car ownership, but to the activities of this club and other collector clubs by preserving an .  important pieces of our historical/ cultural heritage that adds enrichment, engagement and understanding in this ever accelerating technologically complex 21st century that we are now experiencing.   Happy day, and appreciatively,  James
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: gary griffin on October 09, 2017, 09:19:53 AM
There are only a few Stagecoach and Buggy collectors and in 100 years there will be very few car collectors.  I used to collect arrowheads and they were plentiful in the streams of the Olympic mountains where we hiked in the 50's but I doubt many still exist? Most of our cars will be as gone as we will be gone. Passion for cars will decline as cars become just transportation.  There is already talk of banning non self driving vehicles from primary streets during the rush hours by 2030 and when that happens fully banning self driven cars will follow a few decades later.

We are flawed individuals and have accidents at a rate many times greater than autonomous (Self driving) cars will have, so banning us from driving will be logical.

Being a pilot since the early 70's I have watched the evolution of airplanes and today they are almost autonomous and soon will probably be fully autonomous!  My passion for flying has diminished just as the passion for automobiles will diminish.

When was the last time you went to a stagecoach and buggy museum. 





Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 09, 2017, 10:06:27 AM
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on October 09, 2017, 03:02:14 AM
As a millennial, I got to tell you older guys here, there’s hardly any interest in classic cars within my generation. The majority of local car shows I’ve attended (and I've been to many) I don’t think I’ve seen a guy in his 20’s or 30’s owning any of the cars on display.

The youngest looking owners are in there 40’s, and 90% of the rest are 50 on up.
This has largely always been true.  Younger people, 30 and under, are still more into the "today" and tend not to be interested in old(er) things.  While there have always been exceptions, the "classics" interest usually comes on a later age and when things from one's youth actually become classics.


Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on October 09, 2017, 03:02:14 AM
I can see the sporty imports being collectibles to young people today, like old 90’s Honda’s, Nissans I grew up with, which are popular among Asian Americans, but on a overall level, classic domestics are a dying breed. I’m telling you guys, every car show that is classic American driven, young people aren’t the owners of these cars, all the hot rods, all the muscle cars all the 1920’s-40’s antique rides,  are all owned by old dudes. The spectators are young of course, but that’s about it.
Today's youth have and are growing up with imports more than older generations and those cars will likely have more appeal in the future exactly because of that.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 09, 2017, 10:15:31 AM
Quote from: gary griffin on October 09, 2017, 09:19:53 AM
Being a pilot since the early 70's I have watched the evolution of airplanes and today they are almost autonomous and soon will probably be fully autonomous!  My passion for flying has diminished just as the passion for automobiles will diminish.

A somewhat similar sentiment from the 1955 article I posted earlier:
"Modern cars are too full of gadgets, too easy to operate.  It's like sitting in a living room and pushing a button.  We like some movement.  We like the gear shift on the gear box, like the feel of shifting the gears, when you get to know your own transmission."

Yet 1950s cars eventually became desirable classic to the younger people of the 1950s as they got older.  The same can happen with today’s youth and today’s cars down the road.   Just because older generations may not "connect" with modern things doesn’t mean younger people don’t or that they won’t want to seek things from their youth, the eventual classics, later on as they get older.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: gary griffin on October 09, 2017, 12:23:04 PM
Those in their youth today will be long dead in 100 years.  I do not see death of the  hobby, but advancing diminishing  of it to the point of being quaint if you are a car guy in 2117.  I went to the "Fall Festival" last year and hoped to get a chance to drive a Model T as they train you and allow a short drive there in Hickory Corners but fortunately not at the time we were there.  In the 1950's dad purchased a model T for work car for $15 but took it back and got refund because it leaked so bad.  17,000,000 T's and almost everybody that drove probably knew how to drive them. I had a couple of neighbors who drove theirs to Starbucks once in a while on sunny days but one died and the other has not been coming back.

How many today could just get in one and drive it? Very few I assure you.  How many young drivers do not know what a clutch is?  Knowledge and  experience diminish over time  when not used.

Everybody reading this is probably the "Car Guy" of his neighborhood  but as we age and our numbers diminish due to lack of sufficient new "Car guys" will diminish the hobby.

Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: goofyhb on October 09, 2017, 12:43:36 PM
I would like to add my thoughts on this topic too:

The spirit documented by the "parade of progress" influenced the design of some of the products I like. The product design still is a complex topic, but since decades it is not linked into a similar bigger picture.
The Electric Vehicles would have had a chance to change that because of their link to energy storage, autonomous driving, user/traffic tracking, all these connected and connecting functions. But there are so many distractors today...

As engineer I have deep respect for the solutions which have been created in the past to make things happen without having the tools, materials and technology we have today. Just yesterday I had the chance to see a 1934 Packard. These cars had features like adjustable suspension or checking the oil level on the touch of a button! With these cars you can learn and get into every topic. Some areas need a lot of know how, so that's when you rely on an expert/specialists. But these guys are human beings. So their job is something nearly everybody could learn. Today's cars are designed with the help of complex computer programs. The 15 to 30 computers inside the car communicate over several manufacturer owned protocols. Nobody could learn all this in a couple of years. Designing and building a car is still a team effort, nowadays incorporating more robots and computers than humans. I think that the respect for the team has subsided with this.

I love the dagmar bumpers on my 55 the same way as I love the autronique eye, the vacuum antenna or how easy it is to adjust the camber angle. I like the performance and the space. I don't miss a thing. This all is giving me an idea or dream picture of that past where people found smart solutions so different from today's solutions for nearly similar problems. I know it is an idealistic picture leaving out so many things which were not okay at that same time. I have tried hard but I don't feel the same sensation when I look at a robot welded part compared to a hand forged one.

We need to constantly show our cars to the public. Not only to fellow enthusiasts. We need to proof that these cars can do the same job as today's cars do: Get you from A to B in comfort. Show that traveling was not just a task but added experience to your live. And so on. We have a sensation when we work or drive our cars. I got the spark when I was about 8 years old. We can give this to our on child or the child next door.

Axel
(Hamburg, Germany)
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on October 09, 2017, 12:47:31 PM
Interesting article on the state of the vintage car hobby in the UK.


http://www.classicandsportscar.com/news/general-classic-car-news/classic-car-industry-is-on-the-up-says-fbhvc


The classic car hobby continued to grow in the UK even when the economy was plunged into the teeth of a recession. Its worth to the economy â€" both internally and through exports â€" and the number of people it directly employs have never been greater.

Those were the main findings as the Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs revealed its latest research into the size and scale of the movement at the Houses of Parliament last night.

The title of the research document (below) â€" A £4 billion Hobby â€" sums up the rude health of the movement which, though growth slowed noticeably over the past five years, has on the whole escaped the ravages of the global recession.


Even then, the Federation warns that all is figures are conservative and the £4.3 billion generated a year may only be the tip of the iceberg.

Key findings of the report were:

The historic vehicle movement generates £4.3 billion a year â€" up a billion on the 2006 figure â€" nearly £1 billion of it in exports.
A total of 28,000 people earn a living directly from the classic car industry, up 1000 on five years ago.
41% of businesses expect to recruit more staff soon.
The survey also revealed a younger, more down to earth hobby than has been previously assumed. Plus, though more than 850,000 vehicles made before 1981 still survive, their environmental impact is minimal, with 82% of them used no more than twice a month and the entire hobby contributing only 0.24% of the UK's annual mileage.

The myth of classic cars as an exclusively wealthy hobby was also debunked, with 31% of historic vehicle owners having a total household income of under £25,000 and, despite the news headlines driven by megabucks classics, a mammoth 68% of classics being valued at under £10,000.

The Federation's research, masterminded by FBHVC vice president, Geoff Smith, was conducted in the summer, focusing on four groups: traders, its 500-plus member clubs, museums and individuals. There were more than 11,000 responses in total.

Some more interesting stats:

More than £3.3 billion of the hobby's turnover is through 3800 specialist traders.
Museums and clubs generate turnover of £90 million.British enthusiasts spend £3 billion a year on the hobby, or £2900 each.
More than £505 million worth of classic car sales take place in Britain every year. Only 3% of these were over £50,000.
35% of historic vehicles have changed hands  in the past five years.
The total value of historic vehicles in the UK is approximately £7.4 billion, an average of £8250 per vehicle.
57% of people earning a living from the classic car industry are under 45.
55% of all historic vehicle owners are aged under 60.
Half of all historic vehicles cover fewer than 500 miles a year.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on October 09, 2017, 05:26:27 PM
Quote from: gary griffin on October 09, 2017, 12:23:04 PM
Those in their youth today will be long dead in 100 years.  I do not see death of the  hobby, but advancing diminishing  of it to the point of being quaint if you are a car guy in 2117.  I went to the "Fall Festival" last year and hoped to get a chance to drive a Model T as they train you and allow a short drive there in Hickory Corners but fortunately not at the time we were there.  In the 1950's dad purchased a model T for work car for $15 but took it back and got refund because it leaked so bad.  17,000,000 T's and almost everybody that drove probably knew how to drive them. I had a couple of neighbors who drove theirs to Starbucks once in a while on sunny days but one died and the other has not been coming back.

How many today could just get in one and drive it? Very few I assure you.  How many young drivers do not know what a clutch is?  Knowledge and  experience diminish over time  when not used.

Everybody reading this is probably the "Car Guy" of his neighborhood  but as we age and our numbers diminish due to lack of sufficient new "Car guys" will diminish the hobby.

Classic car enthusiasm and the future of the hobby are not about whether or not people can or want to drive a Model T.  Fewer and fewer people know who Greta Garbo was or can identify her in a photograph but that doesn't necessarily mean the number of motion picture enthusiasts is diminishing or that those unfamiliar with Garbo are less enthusiastic about movies (now or in the future) than those familiar with her.

The hobby continues to move forward, adapt and evolve.  Older car guys/gals of the past era are replaced with younger car guys/gals of the current or next era.  I don't think there is conclusive evidence that the number of car guys/gas is diminishing.  Sure, the specific cars and what people like about cars may change as well as how enthusiasts choose to enjoy or participate in the hobby (perhaps less in person at car shows and more online) but there is still lots of enthusiasm out there.

Classic car guys/gals unite!  :)
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Lexi on October 09, 2017, 06:49:57 PM
Yes, as I said in one of my earlier posts how many of us drive horse drawn carriages? What we are witnessing is the natural evolution of things as the paradigm of those inclined to collect (and have the ability to indulge) fades with the passage of time as that group passes on. What is perhaps interesting is how spirited this discussion has become. Classic/Antique car collecting is a relatively new endeavour, as cars have not been around as long as other collectibles such as oil paintings for example. The... 'hobby'... (as the term denotes)... has generally speaking, yet to evolve to the point where other more well established art forms and collecting have, though amidst this add the chaos of a changing technological world and ecological factors which negatively impact the classic car world. So there is a certain degree of 'shock' to the car community as they wrestle with these issues; which collectors in other collecting genres have previously experienced for decades. We are all going through the system and this is a cyclic phenomenon. So get out and enjoy your cars and share them with all who take an interest in the hope that they may one day carry the torch so to speak-and keep interest in classic automobiles alive. History has a habit of repeating itself, (as human nature is relatively static), so the day will come when only a scant few of the very best examples of our cars will exist (and be on display in museums). All is fleeting. Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 10, 2017, 09:21:33 AM
Geographical locations matters heavily on determining the future of the hobby is a valid concern.

Living in CA, the mecca of the classic car universe, is becoming threatened by the extremely outrageous high cost of living as home prices are skewed towards the rich and upper middle class. Owning a classic in Texas is much more attainable and affordable than owning one in CA because the taxes are much higher here, emission smog regulations on cars 76 and up truly discourage buying late 70’s on up anything and the prices many owners are trying to sell their classic for is inflated. People out here try to sell project junk cars for insane money, everyone acts like their oldie is gold.

Car prices for old school Cads and the likes are dirt cheap elsewhere. The bargains are to be had in other states, but not here by any means. Some buyers are firm on their asking price and won’t budge no matter how long it sits on the market.

So it really depends on where you live, how the state government is, cost of living factors and the amount of room you have to store your cars.

Many of CA biggest cities are way overcrowded, more and more young people are being crammed into tiny condos and apartments with hardly any parking or storages because that’s all they can afford.

So it’s becoming very difficult for people in general to own a classic that live on the West Coast.

The ones that live in the mid-west and south with all that empty space and homes with acres of land got it made! Big city folks with the lack of space is where you rarely see an oldie cruising around, its when you get into the suburbs and more so, rural areas and small towns are where the majority of classic car owners live.

This same aspect can be said about classic car ownership in Europe. But we all know, it’s very expensive to own a classic car in certain countries. The amount of regulations are insane!

But head to Australia, New Zealand, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, for whatever reasons, the interest in old classic Cadillacs is sky high. They love and appreciate our cars, and are willing to buy them at high prices just because they are so rare in their homeland, while many Americans have lost interest and could care less.

So I just want say thank you to all the Cadillac collectors and enthusiasts from around the globe that truly appreciate what the brand used to build and how amazing they used to be. You see light, while so many others don’t. We truly are a unique group, that many don’t understand and never will.


Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Lexi on October 10, 2017, 11:35:30 AM
In an earlier post, 64CaddieLacky identified himself as a millennial. Reading his comments it is clear that he is one of the 'chosen few', gifted with foresight often lacking among his generation. Back in the 1960s and early 1970s when I pondered purchasing my first classic car I ran into the problem he so aptly described. Space. Where do you park a car the size of a whale, especially if you don't own real estate? I also had spotty employment as I was just a kid starting out trying save a buck. Today's youth arguably face increasing pressures in the job market as well as living arrangements. While some may flirt with the idea of owning a classic car, if you can't park it (let alone afford the purchase or upkeep), you can't seriously consider buying. You are not in a position to 'indulge' in this luxury, as I have put it. Been there some 50 years ago. History repeating itself. This has been an ongoing situation, partly reflective of some of the obstacles facing those in the 'hobby'. Cripes, there reportedly are more middle aged people now having to move back home for various reasons. They presumably will also be tough candidates to enter the classic car world as well. They have other priorities to wrestle with. Many of my earlier comments touched on these and other trends, though with projection into the more distant future. Looking further down the road and comparing what has happened in other genres of collecting, I still maintain the future is bleak. The eco-friendly laws are indeed another factor and may prove to be a 'wild card' as in any given jurisdiction the 'hobby' could be largely nullified with the stroke of a pen. As my father used to warn, "Beware the eco-terrorists' (meaning politically correct environmentalists who make unnecessary changes). He said that back in the 1970s. Time waits for no one and its march carries little good news for the classic car world. Out to drive my prehistoric, rolling environmental disaster Caddy now! Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: WTL on October 11, 2017, 12:28:40 AM
I guess my ultimate fear, with reference to the particular years we own, is that we may in 40 years still have the car, but little practical opportunity to refuel it with appropriate gas (either octane, or e85 and even more harsh types of fuels).  As much as the electronics, as much as the plastics, I think the hobby is going to be at the mercy of what follows the internal combustion engine that we know. 

That said, they will still be antiques, and arguably antiques are more popular than ever.  I wonder if, at some point in the future, actually being able to drive the vehicle is less important than having it to display, and for people with room, the vehicles will serve as discussion pieces.  I have an inoperable 1941 floor radio, I use it for a tv stand.  I know some people fix them, and some update them, me I just want to look at it.  Fixing it would be terribly daunting, only to deliver a distantly inferior sound to something I can get at walmart, cheap and small.

I don't see people wanting to fix plastic radios from the 90s...not many at least.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: gary griffin on October 11, 2017, 11:29:21 AM

As I peruse old family albums and see my ancestors using horse drawn wagons and carriages.  I envision future generations enjoying photos of our "Pride and Joy's" but not really knowing what we put into the hobby.

The knowledge of our era will be available to them but the feelings we have for them will not be fully understood.  I knew my Great grandfather until I was 15 when he passed.  He crossed the country in a covered wagon and made deliveries in open horse drawn wagons.   I mention this because the personal connection draws my interest in 19th century transportation. I suspect Gramps was enamored with the sailing ships that his ancestors immigrated on?

My grandchildren find my cars interesting but not as interesting as their parents find them. I visualize my great grandchildren viewing old photos someday and wondering why I have such a smile on my face in pictures of me with my cars.




Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on October 11, 2017, 11:02:34 PM
One thing that another person mentioned here that can possibly help the hobby is driving our cars regularly. I know all it takes is some little kid to see a nice ole Caddy cruising down the street to get them interested and hooked for life.

Anytime I drive my 64, and there’s little ones around they all stare at it like they’ve seen their favorite toy!

It’s such a great feeling and a compliment knowing that even small children know what looks cool, stylish and interesting. I remember not too long ago I had a 10-12 year old boy riding his skateboard in a parking lot where I parked to get something to drink at a market close by, and he said “cool car, I really like it”.

Getting that kind of attention is more precious and  worthy than the tons of adults that say the same thing to me when I go for a cruise, because at least I know I just made some kids day and he made mines as well hoping that in the near future when he grows up he to will want an classic Cadillac someday. 8)
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Jeepers Creepers on October 12, 2017, 12:11:26 AM
That might be a 64 thing....

Couple of weeks ago (school holidays) a group of 4 or 5 young girls walking down the footpath, the cool one of the group gave me/The Fleetwood 2 thumbs up.

First thing I thought, was at least one of them had good taste.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Lexi on October 12, 2017, 12:14:30 PM
Happens with my '56 as well. On three occasions I have had young children point at the car exclaiming "Look, the Batmobile"...!!! Small children seem to recognize that there is something different about the car. Another time I was slowly driving through a sub division due to road construction where road pylons guided drivers around the various road work, (so I was creeping along, & with my windows down). Behind me was a modern limo. I slowly passed a group of young ladies at curb side, all dressed up & obviously ready to attend their school prom. As my car is also a limo they must have thought mine was the pick up vehicle. As I slowly drove by without stopping I noticed in my mirror the car behind had stopped to pick them up. I saw one of them longingly point to my car and heard her say "I want that one"! Made my day! Clay/Lexi
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: dochawk on November 05, 2017, 02:09:09 PM
Quote from: lexi on October 02, 2017, 11:05:19 AM
I believe that there will always be a select few who will for nostalgic reasons take the plunge, though the availability of products like gasoline and perhaps even certain lubricants may be a death blow to the 'hobby'.

I think that that's the *real* threat here.

I expect to be driving for roughly another forty years.  Gasoline cars, however, will probably only be sold for another ten or twenty.

For that matter, I seriously doubt that non-autonomous cars will be available 20 years from now, although a few may have a manual mode.

The corollary to *THAT* is that at some point, traffic control systems will be directing the vehicles, and manually driving will be banned.

We're going to need to figure out a way to fuel our vehicles (100% alcohol or hydrogen solutions, I presume), and a way to fit into the control networks (maybe some kind of gizmo on the dashboard and an exemption for classics to use this?)

i really have no hope that 25 years from now, I can simply hop in my '72 and drive it across town, casually stopping for gas on the way . . .
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: James Landi on November 05, 2017, 03:27:45 PM
Me thinks it will be many decades of "transition" to totally automonous electric vehicles.  And one can easily project a time when the automonous lane is similar to the HOV lanes, viz: restricted.  One of the ironies of loving Cadillacs is that G.M. is constantly pushing our brand to be the most AUTOMATIC, most ergonomically designed and sporting the very least number of knobs and switches to complicate the driving experience.  For those of us old enough to recall, during the early days of the German and Japanese car market advertising the makers pushed "road feel."  Meanwhile Cadillac created cars that increasingly isolated the driver and passengers from the road.   I recall thinking, "Why would I want a car that features road feel when I can drive my '56  Cadillac and feel as if I'm sitting on a moving living room sofa????  This all gets rather complicated.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: gkhashem on November 05, 2017, 04:35:46 PM
Quote from: gkhashem on October 06, 2017, 04:29:11 PM
While not happening soon, it will someday. This is the new reality no guessing NO AGREEING, all these opinions may not matter.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/11/autos/countries-banning-diesel-gas-cars/index.html

http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/california-mulls-combustion-engine-car-ban-after-similar-uk-france-and-china


Then what will you do?  Maybe only the super rich can play this game if there is any fuel to be had. If not then that's it.

As I already stated this is the real threat, all the other talking points were spouted off 40 years ago. NO gas NO cars.

While not happening soon give it 20-30 years and then what?  We all have paper weights.  All this other talk is chatter, opinions, but this appears to be a coming reality.
Title: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: bcroe on November 05, 2017, 09:00:55 PM
Fossil fuels are here for the very long term; nothing can match
them.  When they are gone, it probably indicates catastrophic 
world problems.  Bruce Roe
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Steve Strickland on November 07, 2017, 11:39:09 AM
I've been reading along with this thread and am also very interested in the future of the hobby.

I fall under the 'college and family took my priorities first' category. I am now in my early 40s and have started my first real restoration. I bought my grandfather's 1951 60 Special. All the parts are there and original. It's not in great shape but it is complete. It would start with a bit of luck and jiggling. The chrome has surface rust on the face of it and the back of the bumpers appears to be only rust. The seats are well worn and covered with a shop blanket. The glass has the brown patina of the safety glass glue aging gracefully. The paint is dull and missing in small chunks on various panels. Even with all of that, the smile that I have while driving it and the looks/smiles/waves that I get from others makes me proud to own it.

As part of my research, I have looked at prices and availability for replacements, refurbishing and just living with what I have. The cost of having chrome replated is significant. I am not looking to have a fully restored show car. I want a car that I can drive occasionally to show off.

I grew up in a household where my father worked on his own cars and I was the helper. Once I was 10 or 11, I was in charge of a weekly maintenance check on the vehicles. I have done the same with my kids. I feel that I am mechanically inclined and am willing to tackle most items on my own. That being said, the Cadillac is very different from the 1970 GMC pickup that was my first ride. Restoring said pickup would be easier now with the plethora of parts available through the aftermarket and the current desire for the 67-72 lines. New parts for the Cadillac are not so abundant. I am doing this more as a labor of love than strictly hobby, however; my wife says that I've caught the bug. My kids, when prodded, will help but do not share my enthusiasm. I look at Cadillac's differently now since I've torn into this one. It is truly a marvel with the hydraulics and learning about the 6-V system. There are many items that I didn't even think about while I did my preliminary research that I am learning about. The local resources, for me, are non-existent. I look forward to having the car as a driver. Maybe in a few years I can justify replacing all the glass or having the chrome done.

In the meantime I will drive it on sunny days and not worry about those dim, yellow lights cutting through the darkness only to be blinded by an oncoming, modern led vehicle. Will I do another project in the future? I don't know the answer to that yet, but I do have an uncle who still owns my original pickup truck.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 26, 2017, 01:16:28 PM
I am truly humbled with all the extremely intelligent and informative replies to my post.  So many different angles and approaches to the subject, and all very interesting.  I think one thing we can all agree on.  All facets of the automobile, i.e. quality, dependability, cost of maintenance  are greatly different from days gone by, when most times we could go to our local automotive parts store, Pep Boys, and repair out prides and joys.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: cadillacmike68 on November 26, 2017, 11:58:11 PM
Quote from: Bill Young on October 01, 2017, 11:28:21 PM
I personally think the safety things are fine , my problem centers around that in my opinion all the new cars look like ass. Also they all resemble  hundai's to the greater degree so why spend the extra money? . In addition they all will do anything electronically but there is virtually NO choices in color of interior or exterior. Most new cars to me look like the old song " Boxes , little boxes and they all look just the same, and they all are made out of ticky tacky and there is a white one and a black one and a silver one and a gray one and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same". Sorry but I like colors and chrome and individuality and style. I am continually baffled why there are as many makes of cars still in existence given the aforementioned . Other than the Dodge Charger and Challenger the rest of the cars bore me to tears, people I know sometimes say " I saw you on the road , didn't you see me"?, I don't want to tell them that I try to avoid looking that close to most cars because I hate seeing them and some are so ugly that they offend me to look at them, I'll leave it at that not wanting to offend anyone. One Mans Opinion.

Amen; the fugliest cars out there are the recent lexAss and TOYota offerings. They look like cylon rejects from the original battlestar galactica...

And, Every new gen crossover Suburban Uhttack Vehicle out there has a virtually identical side profile, Including the SRX or XT5 - or whatever...
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: cadillacmike68 on November 27, 2017, 12:02:15 AM
Quote from: TJ Hopland on October 02, 2017, 10:10:54 AM
Look at where we are today with 3d scanning and printing.  You can pretty much make your own parts now and the technology gets better and the price comes down every day.   As far as the computers and how fast they advance it won't be long before you can do some simple hacks to a watch to emulate and replace a cars computer.   I was recently introduced to a computer called a Raspberry Pi.   Its a full blown computer about the size of a deck of cars that cost $35.   People have written software for it to emulate computers up to about 10 years ago and use them to control some pretty sophisticated robots and such.   I bet someone a little smarter than me could make one run a car.  They may have already done it,  look at the aftermarket EFI systems that are out there today where the ECU is built into the throttle body that pretty much looks like a carb.   I'm sure those computers are more advanced than the OE's were using 5 years ago.   Its going to be the kid that is playing video games today decides he likes his dads 2005 in 2035 and makes it work.

I don't think you can 3D print a Magnetic Ride Control strut for a 2005-2011 STS
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: cadillacmike68 on November 27, 2017, 12:40:47 AM
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on October 09, 2017, 03:02:14 AM
...Financial burdens like student loan debt, and career driven people simply don’t have the time nor the interest on owning a classic compared to a working class individual with no responsibilities, still lives at home, and has the time to give the car attention...

???

Working Class, No responsibilities? How do you equate those, especially when many college students and grads are STILL living at home???

I have several nephews and nieces all aged 25-35 who will not even get driver's licenses...
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on November 27, 2017, 02:15:35 AM
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on November 27, 2017, 12:40:47 AM
???

Working Class, No responsibilities? How do you equate those, especially when many college students and grads are STILL living at home???

I have several nephews and nieces all aged 25-35 who will not even get driver's licenses...

I notice the blue collar working class type guys that like to get their hands dirty and maybe work in construction, don't have a family or kids yet, are the ones that are more likely to own a Classic and actually works on them, vs a wealthy white collar executive that would rather take his car to a shop all the time and hates to get his hands dirty.

Many young people still live at home since it's extremely hard to live on their own these days with the rising cost of housing and rent, debt, and everything else that is going up in price. They stay at home because it's affordable to them and they can still be able to have the things they want.

I'm 33, and I even notice guys my age simply aren't into old cars. They rather drive something new and fast.

The whole Techie generation is destroying the future of the hobby. As these kinds of people can care less about cars, and more than likely don't even know how to change out a flat tire.

As blue collar jobs slowly disappear, and the economy moves towards automation, there won't be too many options for young kids to have careers in that requires them to have skills fixing things.

The future of autonomous cars will more than likely kill the classic car industry in 30 years or possibly less. If the government starts making laws saying that it will be illegal to drive your own car, then every industry that has anything to do with the aftermarket such as classic car part makers, tire makers,  and so on will be gone for good.

The government really loves to take away our freedoms over time, and good things we like, don't they?
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 27, 2017, 08:22:16 AM
Quote from: Bill Young on October 01, 2017, 10:28:21 PM
I personally think the safety things are fine , my problem centers around that in my opinion all the new cars look like ass. Also they all resemble  hundai's to the greater degree so why spend the extra money? . In addition they all will do anything electronically but there is virtually NO choices in color of interior or exterior. Most new cars to me look like the old song " Boxes , little boxes and they all look just the same, and they all are made out of ticky tacky and there is a white one and a black one and a silver one and a gray one and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same". Sorry but I like colors and chrome and individuality and style. I am continually baffled why there are as many makes of cars still in existence given the aforementioned . Other than the Dodge Charger and Challenger the rest of the cars bore me to tears, people I know sometimes say " I saw you on the road , didn't you see me"?, I don't want to tell them that I try to avoid looking that close to most cars because I hate seeing them and some are so ugly that they offend me to look at them, I'll leave it at that not wanting to offend anyone. One Mans Opinion.

Amen; the fugliest cars out there are the recent lexAss and TOYota offerings. They look like cylon rejects from the original battlestar galactica...

And, Every new gen crossover Suburban Uhttack Vehicle out there has a virtually identical side profile, Including the SRX or XT5 - or whatever...


Here is my take on the current look of cars.  Those of us, that were around in the "golden age" of automobile styling, can vividly remember, when stylists weren't hampered by government regulations.  We enthusiastically looked forward to the frequent styling changes. Sad to say, those days are gone forever.  Those days set the standard for us, as to what a car should look like.  It should be added, that during this period, it was form over function.  Cars back then had built in obsolescence.  Today's buying public aren't all that concerned greatly with appearance. They want reliability, comfort and convenience. 
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 27, 2017, 09:22:25 AM
Opinions some folks, usually older generations, have about modern cars of a given era looking too much alike are nothing new.  Dating back to at least to at least the 1930s (and probably before) and every decade since there have been numerous articles written about cars looking too much alike, there has been ad copy stating that cars look too much alike, etc.   This sentiment has been around for a very very long time and will continue to be around into the future.

Just a few quotes from sample ads referencing look-alike cars:
1930s â€" "If you are tired of cars that all look alike...if you want to ride with genuine pride-you’ll buy a Pontiac"
1940s â€" "Today when so many cars look alike...It’s refreshing to drive a Graham"
1950s â€" "For the man who is fed up with paying too much for look-alike cars"
1960s â€" "So why settle for look-alike, drive-alike cars when you can get..."
1960s â€" "Now let's get away from the look-alike, drive-alike, first-cousin cars with..."
1960s â€" "Have you noticed how many 1966 cars look alike?"

Newspaper and magazine articles over the many decades about look-alike cars have been even more plentiful.

These types of opinions are about as old as the classic car hobby itself.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 27, 2017, 10:08:04 AM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 27, 2017, 09:22:25 AM
Opinions some folks, usually older generations, have about modern cars of a given era looking too much alike are nothing new.  Dating back to at least to at least the 1930s (and probably before) and every decade since there have been numerous articles written about cars looking too much alike, there has been ad copy stating that cars look too much alike, etc.   This sentiment has been around for a very very long time and will continue to be around into the future.

Just a few quotes from sample ads referencing look-alike cars:
1930s â€" "If you are tired of cars that all look alike...if you want to ride with genuine pride-you’ll buy a Pontiac"
1940s â€" "Today when so many cars look alike...It’s refreshing to drive a Graham"
1950s â€" "For the man who is fed up with paying too much for look-alike cars"
1960s â€" "So why settle for look-alike, drive-alike cars when you can get..."
1960s â€" "Now let's get away from the look-alike, drive-alike, first-cousin cars with..."
1960s â€" "Have you noticed how many 1966 cars look alike?"

Newspaper and magazine articles over the many decades about look-alike cars have been even more plentiful.

These types of opinions are about as old as the classic car hobby itself.

I have to respectfully disagree with cars of the 50's and 60's looking alike.  It has often been stated that in the past.  One could tell the make and year of a car a block away.  A 1959 Cadillac a look-alike car?  I think not.  The increase of federal regulations concerning gas mileage, gave us the "jelly bean" look.

I seems to me, that the lack of colors, in todays car market, has superseded the complaint of lack of diversity in appearance.  What I find most appalling. Most 2017 are only available in two standard colors, with a extra charge for different colors.  Among the choices, the most expensive is white!
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 27, 2017, 12:43:06 PM
Not everyone feels that cars from the 50s and 60s look alike just as not everyone feels that today's cars all look alike.  What I was trying to get across is that the "look alike" sentiment dates back many many decades and that it's not unusual for people who connect most with cars of the past, people who tend to be older, not to connect with modern cars of any given era whether it be during the 40s, 50s, 60s or today.  I have read a variety of articles from the 1950s and 60s, for example, quoting everyday people, retired designers/engineers, auto experts, etc. that cars of that time looked too much alike.

Just a few article titles/headlines from the 1950s and 1960s included: "Cars Look More Alike", "All Cars Look Alike to TV Critic", "Why Do All Cars Look Alike?", "Why U.S. Cars Look Alike", "Cars Look Alike Under The Lights Of Parking Lot","'55 Cars Look Alike, Designer Complains", "More Cars Look Alike."

If the Internet and forums like this existed in the 1950s and 60s, posts back then about cars looking alike would've existed similar to those today.

This is not about whether or not the opinions today or then are or were right or wrong, they're opinions.  The point is that opinions that cars look too much alike have been around decade after decade after decade and are not something new or unique to today.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on November 27, 2017, 02:24:39 PM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 27, 2017, 12:43:06 PM
Not everyone feels that cars from the 50s and 60s look alike just as not everyone feels that today's cars all look alike.  What I was trying to get across is that the "look alike" sentiment dates back many many decades and that it's not unusual for people who connect most with cars of the past, people who tend to be older, not to connect with modern cars of any given era whether it be during the 40s, 50s, 60s or today.  I have read a variety of articles from the 1950s and 60s, for example, quoting everyday people, retired designers/engineers, auto experts, etc. that cars of that time looked too much alike.

Just a few article titles/headlines from the 1950s and 1960s included: "Cars Look More Alike", "All Cars Look Alike to TV Critic", "Why Do All Cars Look Alike?", "Why U.S. Cars Look Alike", "Cars Look Alike Under The Lights Of Parking Lot","'55 Cars Look Alike, Designer Complains", "More Cars Look Alike."

If the Internet and forums like this existed in the 1950s and 60s, posts back then about cars looking alike would've existed similar to those today.

This is not about whether or not the opinions today or then are or were right or wrong, they're opinions.  The point is that opinions that cars look too much alike have been around decade after decade after decade and are not something new or unique to today.

Yeah but flash forward today, and for the most part modern vehicles pretty much all look the same minus some minor cues here and there. Overall they lack of any shapes, besides for just one which is very “round”and “bland” compared to cars from the the 50’s-70’s with tail fins and chrome galore!!

There was no mistaking a 60’s or 70’s Cadillac from a similar year Lincoln. Extremely different in terms of styling including interior design and the overall feeling of each cars.

Today you can barely tell a difference, interiors mostly look alike, and feel the same as far as materials and colors go. Styling is much more restrained since the rules and government regulations has forced automakers to build cars to look even more the same.

The industry has done better lately at adding creases and creating sharper looking cars, but if you look at the overall shapes, they really haven’t changed much since the 90’s.

I believe the only modern cars that defy this rule is the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Chargers. At least they have some squared off angles that adds an aggressive stance and creates a unique character that you can spot a 100 feet away. But for the 95% of everything else on road now, they truly do stand out and have been one of better styled cars this past decade.

The reality is, opinions aside, facts aside, that cars used to be much more distinctive and way more expressive in styling and design compared to today.

The 60’s probably being the best decade for uniqueness in design. There was a big difference in looks going from a mustang, to a GTO, to a Camaro, to a Corvette. Each of those cars got their unique styling traits because it was an era when there was less to zero restrictions when it came to artistic expressions.

Imagine those cars being created in 2017? They probably would all look so similar that hardly anyone could tell a difference between them all.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 6262 on November 28, 2017, 03:11:26 AM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 27, 2017, 12:43:06 PM
Not everyone feels that cars from the 50s and 60s look alike just as not everyone feels that today's cars all look alike.  What I was trying to get across is that the "look alike" sentiment dates back many many decades and that it's not unusual for people who connect most with cars of the past, people who tend to be older, not to connect with modern cars of any given era whether it be during the 40s, 50s, 60s or today.  I have read a variety of articles from the 1950s and 60s, for example, quoting everyday people, retired designers/engineers, auto experts, etc. that cars of that time looked too much alike.

Just a few article titles/headlines from the 1950s and 1960s included: "Cars Look More Alike", "All Cars Look Alike to TV Critic", "Why Do All Cars Look Alike?", "Why U.S. Cars Look Alike", "Cars Look Alike Under The Lights Of Parking Lot","'55 Cars Look Alike, Designer Complains", "More Cars Look Alike."

If the Internet and forums like this existed in the 1950s and 60s, posts back then about cars looking alike would've existed similar to those today.

This is not about whether or not the opinions today or then are or were right or wrong, they're opinions.  The point is that opinions that cars look too much alike have been around decade after decade after decade and are not something new or unique to today.

I totally agree with you. I am pretty sure that back in the 1950s the guys from the horseless-carriage-club had exactly the same sentiments about the then-new cars like most of us today about today's cars. I only care for classic American cars. No other interest in cars at all. But I have to accept that others prefer any modern car over the (in their eyes) ridicolous barges of the past. There is nothing wrong with that as long as I can indulge in my hobby.

Here is a very readworthy article from the Time Magazin from '58. Owners complain how bad the contemporary cars are. The journalist complains the numerous mistakes of the industry. Best of all is the caption "Look-alikes" under the picture of seven '58 cars from seven different brands. We know it better. It will be the same in 2078 when classic car enthusiasts judge the '18 model year. As Big Apple Caddy has said it is all about personal opinions and preferences.

http://www.imperialclub.com/~imperialclub/Articles/58Time/index.htm
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Steve Passmore on November 28, 2017, 07:14:57 AM
Whilst I can except them complaining about 1958 cars looking alike, the article then make comparisons with the 1930s shapes and there's a huge difference. That's the trouble with today's styles. I recently sent a 1993 car to the breakers which didn't look out of place on today's roads, nearly 25 years later. While each car maker followed a style pattern back then, they at least saw differences over the years. Everyone could distinguish a 55 from a 58. and the difference between the 30s and 50s was massive.  now, you can go for years without knowing what year a car is.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 28, 2017, 09:02:21 AM
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on November 27, 2017, 02:24:39 PM
Yeah but flash forward today, and for the most part modern vehicles pretty much all look the same minus some minor cues here and there.

Not everyone feels that today's cars all look alike just as not everyone back in the 50s, 60s, etc felt that those new cars looked alike.  The simple point is that sentiments about "look alike" cars are not new or unique to today and have been around for decade after decade after decade.  There was no Internet or forums like this decades ago to share these opinions but numerous print articles from back in the 50s, 60s, etc have quotes from people making the same types of "all cars look alike" comments that some people do today.   There will be some people making the same types of "all cars look alike" comments in the future about those moderns cars too!

"Back in the 1900s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1910s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1920s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1930s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1940s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1950s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1960s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1970s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1980s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1990s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 2000s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 2010s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 2020s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."

.......and so on and so on.......
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on November 28, 2017, 10:40:22 AM
Quote from: e.mason on November 28, 2017, 09:50:47 AM
All GM cars back in the 50's, while sharing some styling features i.e. windshields, flattop roofs, fins etc.  They all had their own distinctive styling, that made it easy to tell one make from another.  I fail to see how someone can say that a 58 Chevy Impala looks like a 58 Buick Limited.

Agreed.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: David Greenburg on November 28, 2017, 11:44:40 AM
Agreed, although you picked a pretty extreme example.  There is nothing else on this planet that looks like a ‘58 Limited!
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on November 28, 2017, 11:59:24 AM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 28, 2017, 09:02:21 AM
Not everyone feels that today's cars all look alike just as not everyone back in the 50s, 60s, etc felt that those new cars looked alike.  The simple point is that sentiments about "look alike" cars are not new or unique to today and have been around for decade after decade after decade.  There was no Internet or forums like this decades ago to share these opinions but numerous print articles from back in the 50s, 60s, etc have quotes from people making the same types of "all cars look alike" comments that some people do today.   There will be some people making the same types of "all cars look alike" comments in the future about those moderns cars too!

"Back in the 1900s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1910s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1920s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1930s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1940s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1950s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1960s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1970s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1980s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 1990s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 2000s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 2010s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."
"Back in the 2020s when I was a kid I could easily tell cars apart but today's models all look alike....."

.......and so on and so on.......

I grew up in the 80’s and 90’s and I’ll be the first to tell you that cars from that era were ugly as sin. I can’t remember one car that honestly stood out to me. The only cars that were at least classy looking and had character was the Cadillac Brougham and the Lincoln Town Car. Pretty much everything else that was made was either horrible in quality/performance and or didn’t stand out. The downsizing truly ruined American cas far cars being impressive and grandiose like how they were prior to the 80’s.

It’s really not hard to see that. It doesn’t take opinions either, its just a fact. I’m sure most here would agree.

Like how maybe 95% of the people here would rather own a 55 or a 65 Cadillac vs a 85 or a 95 Cadillac for collector purposes. Hands down the older ones win in every sense and are by far much more impressive and stylish cars. There no denying that.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 59-in-pieces on November 28, 2017, 01:07:20 PM
I wasn't going to comment after 5 pages.
But, damn the torpedoes.

I for one think that there has been only one design tool required - OR USED - by any of the car companies (not vans, trucks, suv's - just 2 & 4 door cars) since perhaps the 80's - and that design tool was the business end of a SPOON.

I THINK WE NEED A CONTEST.
There must be a clever Photo Shop type person who can silhouette in black (side view) a typical car from each of the years from the eighties - and on.
And with or without identifying the silhouettes by year - each member who would like to debunk the contention of "all cars look alike" can take a go at it to identify the manufacturer - one from another and the body styles.

Who would win - should be by the most identified manufacturers and body types.

Are there any takers on the opposite side of the look alike aisle.
Have fun,
Steve B.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 28, 2017, 01:13:48 PM
Quote from: e.mason on November 28, 2017, 09:50:47 AM
All GM cars back in the 50's, while sharing some styling features i.e. windshields, flattop roofs, fins etc.  They all had their own distinctive styling, that made it easy to tell one make from another.  I fail to see how someone can say that a 58 Chevy Impala looks like a 58 Buick Limited.

And I fail to see how someone can't distinguish between a Chevrolet Impala and Buick LaCrosse today.  To me, the two '58s you posted look more similar to each other than the current Impala and LaCrosse do or LaCrosse and XTS do, etc.   Some will agree, some won't.   It's all opinion and one largely based on things like when one grew up or the era of vehicles one connects with.  There are always exceptions but older people and/or those more into classics tend to hold the "look alike" viewpoint about modern cars the most.

The simple fact is that people in the 1950s DID have opinions that new cars of that time looked too much alike.   Numerous newspaper and magazine articles of the time were written about or included statements to that effect.   People have also had those opinions about new cars before the 1950s as well as those after the 1950s.   That’s really the only "fact" here.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: jdemerson on November 28, 2017, 06:31:53 PM
For the most part, I agree with Mr. Langley that there's an awful lot of subjectivity in this area. And, yes, people have, over the decades, always complained about the styling of cars compared with their predecessors. Has anything built since ever surpassed a 1931 Cadillac for style?   :)

But I do think that in 1957 it was a lot easier to distinguish Ford, Chevrolet, and Plymouth (the big three) than it is in 2017 to distinguish Camry, Accord, and Altima (three big-seller mid-sized family sedans today). And there was a lot more variation (and choice) in paint colors on 1957 Cadillacs, Lincolns, and Imperials than on 2017 Cadillacs, Lincolns, and Audis. There are many reasons for such changes, but they don't serve the interests of individuality in our cars.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac Series 62 Sedan  6219X
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 28, 2017, 06:38:20 PM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 28, 2017, 01:13:48 PM
And I fail to see how someone can't distinguish between a Chevrolet Impala and Buick LaCrosse today.  To me, the two '58s you posted look more similar to each other than the current Impala and LaCrosse do or LaCrosse and XTS do, etc.   Some will agree, some won't.   It's all opinion and one largely based on things like when one grew up or the era of vehicles one connects with.  There are always exceptions but older people and/or those more into classics tend to hold the "look alike" viewpoint about modern cars the most.

The simple fact is that people in the 1950s DID have opinions that new cars of that time looked too much alike.   Numerous newspaper and magazine articles of the time were written about or included statements to that effect.   People have also had those opinions about new cars before the 1950s as well as those after the 1950s.   That’s really the only "fact" here.

Granted that all of GM designs came from the creativity of Harley Earl, and as previously stated, share quite a few styling features.  As someone that was already greatly interested in cars in the 50's.  There was never a question as to what year and make a car was.  I might even suggest that we were sort of influenced by what make a car was, as to how much it was better to own a Buick then a Chevy.  A Cadillac?  They were for individuals that have "arrived".  That's why most Cadillacs of that era were bought by the older and more influential of the era.

I think it was easier to spot a Buick from a Chevy back then, then it is today.  Actually I think GM has done a great job of incorporating some retro looks to its Chevys and Buicks.  Even to the point of bring back the names of Chevys of the past.  Impala and Malibu.  Not to forget the great looking retro looking Camaros.  I wonder how many buyers think of Chevy's today as the buyers of yesterday, when Chevy was the working mans car.

Like others here have stated.  I still think Cadillac is trying to find it self.  Same for Lincoln.  I think both Lincoln and Cadillac don't rule the roost, like in years gone by.  Besides having competition from imports for the luxury car market.  Many non luxury makes and models, offer enough "luxury" options as standard equipment to satisfy the majority of buyers.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 28, 2017, 07:02:44 PM
Sticking with the 1950s or specifically the 1958 reference from above, here are portions of just a few published articles, letters, etc from exactly that year:

"Auto sales are down because a car is no longer a symbol of prestige.  For a long time folks would rather own a big car and live in a small house.   It was a symbol of success.  But now, because almost all cars look alike an auto is accepted as a utility â€" to go to the store, to work or a friend’s house."
---
"Over-all, all new cars do look much alike, barring differences in front and rear lighting systems and radiator grilles.  They have low silhouettes; all use an increasing amount of glass and most of them have flaring fenders."
---
"One of the old-timers on the staff says all those new little foreign cars look alike to him.  “As a matter of fact," he adds, "I gave up trying to tell those big American cars apart about five years ago."
---
U.S. Designers Critical of Automobile Styling â€" "Most of the panel believe that cars look too much alike and that there should be distinctions other than price and size."


Again, these weren't written last year or ten years ago.  These were all written nearly sixty years ago in 1958 but could've been written pretty much any year or decade and that's really been my main point.  The "look alike" opinions are not new or unique to today or any particular decade.  These opinions have been around for ages and will continue to be around into the future.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 28, 2017, 07:25:58 PM
The reason all cars look the same now is guaranteed by a number of facts.
(1)   All cars have to meet the federally mandated requirements.
(2)   All cars are designed by computers, after the programmers have fed in the above-requirements.
(3)   All Computers are built by computer designers, and have the same components within.
(4)   All cars are built by computer controlled robots, on computer-controlled assembly lines.

Now, as for colour.
(1)   Fashion designers tell the car companies what the future colours will be.
(2)   The shape of the above-designed cars do not successfully allow themselves to be painted in two or triple tone.

Finally, all cars have to undergo crash testing, and therefore to obtain the required results for frontal, rollover, side and rear impact, plus be pedestrian friendly, they all have to have virtually the same shape and collapsibility or non-collapsibility  as each other when hitting a block of steel, wall or post.

Back in the early days of motoring, that is the first 75 years of motoring, the designers had virtually a free hand, and only had to allow for human occupation, and ability for the factory to build their design.

The thing about the horse and cart was that the horse design stayed the same for thousands of years, and the design of what they could safely pull, couldn't vary that much.

Bruce. >:D

Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 28, 2017, 09:14:12 PM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 28, 2017, 07:02:44 PM
Sticking with the 1950s or specifically the 1958 reference from above, here are portions of just a few published articles, letters, etc from exactly that year:

"Auto sales are down because a car is no longer a symbol of prestige.  For a long time folks would rather own a big car and live in a small house.   It was a symbol of success.  But now, because almost all cars look alike an auto is accepted as a utility â€" to go to the store, to work or a friend’s house."
---
"Over-all, all new cars do look much alike, barring differences in front and rear lighting systems and radiator grilles.  They have low silhouettes; all use an increasing amount of glass and most of them have flaring fenders."
---
"One of the old-timers on the staff says all those new little foreign cars look alike to him.  “As a matter of fact," he adds, "I gave up trying to tell those big American cars apart about five years ago."
---
U.S. Designers Critical of Automobile Styling â€" "Most of the panel believe that cars look too much alike and that there should be distinctions other than price and size."


Again, these weren't written last year or ten years ago.  These were all written nearly sixty years ago in 1958 but could've been written pretty much any year or decade and that's really been my main point.  The "look alike" opinions are not new or unique to today or any particular decade.  These opinions have been around for ages and will continue to be around into the future.

He forgot to add that adding to the look alike styling, was that all the cars had 4 tires, bumpers and gas filler. Auto sales down in 1958 because they lost their prestige?  Really?  I think not.  this was a time when every teenager in the country wanted a car of one type or another.  The author failed to mention that the country was in a recession in 1958.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: jdemerson on November 28, 2017, 09:44:54 PM
This has been a fun post, and I hope we all don't take ourselves and our opinions too seriously. "To each his/her own!"

I try not to be a gloom and doom person. I think there are a lot of great new 2018 cars our there: Cadillac CT6 Platinum, Cadillac ATS-V Coupe, Lincoln Navigator, Ford Mustang Shelby Cobra, Chevrolet Impala, Chevrolet Camaro ZL1, Corvette Z06, Dodge Challenger Hemi, Chrysler 300, Porsche Cayman GS, Porsche 911 S and GT3, Mercedes Benz E-Class.  No two of these make cars look very much alike, to my eye. And several of them come in bright and interesting colors if you want them (though rarely are those colors sitting on dealer lots).  All but  a couple of these will be sought by collectors 50 years from now. I haven't the faintest idea how they will be restored, but I'm betting that they will be, somehow.

I love the 50s and 60s cars. I'd rather have most of the ones on the list above than many 1970s cars. For me the 1980s cars aren't on the map. But all this is very subjective, as Big Apple Caddy reminds us.

Cheers!
John Emerson
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 29, 2017, 08:38:05 AM
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 28, 2017, 07:25:58 PM
The reason all cars look the same now is guaranteed by a number of facts.
(1)   All cars have to meet the federally mandated requirements.
(2)   All cars are designed by computers, after the programmers have fed in the above-requirements.
(3)   All Computers are built by computer designers, and have the same components within.
(4)   All cars are built by computer controlled robots, on computer-controlled assembly lines.

Yet manufacturers are still able to have unique design for their models.  I really don't think large sednas like the Audi A8, BMW 7 Series, Buick LaCrosse, Cadillac XTS, Chevrolet Impala, Chrysler 300, Dodge Charger, Ford Taurus, Genesis G90, Jaguar XJ ,Leuxs LS, Lincoln Continental, Maserati Quattroporte, Mercedes S-Class, etc. look all that much alike besides the fact of being sedans.  No more so than cars of other decades may have.  I really don't think the sports coupes like the Audi R8, Chevrolet Camaro, Dodge Challenger, Ferrari 488, Ford Mustang, Nissan 370Z, etc look all that much alike besides the fact of being coupes.  No more so than cars of other decades may have.

Yes, some consider these cars "look alike" but some people have felt that away about modern cars from all of the other decades too.  Similar automotive design "themes" have been common with each era/decade.  If forums like this had existed decades ago, discussions, complaints, debates, etc about modern cars looking too much alike would've been going on back then as well.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 29, 2017, 08:44:38 AM
Quote from: e.mason on November 28, 2017, 09:14:12 PM
He forgot to add that adding to the look alike styling, was that all the cars had 4 tires, bumpers and gas filler. Auto sales down in 1958 because they lost their prestige?  Really?  I think not.  this was a time when ever teenager in the country wanted a car of one type or another.  The author failed to mention that the country was in a recession in 1958.

This individual's OPINION (all of these "look alike" comments are really just opinions, afterall) in 1958 was that "almost all cars look alike."   An opinion held by others that year, that decade and every other decade.  Some others back then agreed with the “look alike” comment, and some others no doubt didn't.  Just like opinions people have today about today’s cars.  This debate has been around for ages and one never "resolved" given the subjectivity.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 29, 2017, 09:56:35 AM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 29, 2017, 08:44:38 AM
This individual's OPINION (all of these "look alike" comments are really just opinions, afterall) in 1958 was that "almost all cars look alike."   An opinion held by others that year, that decade and every other decade.  Some others back then agreed with the “look alike” comment, and some others no doubt didn't.  Just like opinions people have today about today’s cars.  This debate has been around for ages and one never "resolved" given the subjectivity.

Opinions are just that. Opinions.  Nothing more and not to be taken as fact.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 29, 2017, 07:26:10 PM
Quote from: e.mason on November 29, 2017, 09:56:35 AM
Opinions are just that. Opinions.  Nothing more and not to be taken as fact.

Yes, as I have stated several times.

Opinions that modern cars of whatever given year/decade look too much alike have been around for ages and are not new or unique to today just as they weren’t new or unique to the 1950s, 60s or whatever.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on November 29, 2017, 11:06:22 PM
Well then what decade does everyone think Cadillacs looked the “BEST”? This should put an end to the argument.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 29, 2017, 11:26:03 PM
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so this is an unfair question.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: 64\/54Cadillacking on November 30, 2017, 02:29:07 AM
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 29, 2017, 11:26:03 PM
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, so this is an unfair question.

Bruce. >:D

We definitely need a poll then.  :D

Most favorite decade of Cadillacs?

Personally I pick 50’s-60’s. 8)
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 30, 2017, 09:36:09 AM
Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on November 30, 2017, 02:29:07 AM
We definitely need a poll then.  :D

Most favorite decade of Cadillacs?

Personally I pick 50’s-60’s. 8)

I would say the 50's was the break out decade for Cadillac and GM.  Some consider the 50's the golden age of automobiles.  Like Elvis, the 59's are one of the most famous icons of the 50's.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 30, 2017, 09:39:00 AM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 29, 2017, 07:26:10 PM
Yes, as I have stated several times.

Opinions that modern cars of whatever given year/decade look too much alike have been around for ages and are not new or unique to today just as they weren’t new or unique to the 1950s, 60s or whatever.

If one is easily able to tell you what make and year a car is, how can it be said that cars of that era, all look alike?
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 30, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
Quote from: e.mason on November 30, 2017, 09:39:00 AM
If one is easily able to tell you what make and year a car is, how can it be said that cars of that era, all look alike?

This is so obviously because not everyone can or could at the time "easily tell what make and model a car is" which is why they would say "all cars look alike."  You seem to think that if you or any one person can/could easily tell makes and models of cars apart from certain years or decades then EVERYONE else can/could as well but that's simply not the case.

"Look alike" opinions about modern cars of the time were around in the 1910s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, etc.  These opinions are not new or unique to today just as opposite opinions (i.e. cars don't all look alike) have been around for decades too and yes, these opposing opinions can now exist and did in the past exist simultaneously.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: e.mason on November 30, 2017, 12:49:52 PM
Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on November 30, 2017, 11:32:20 AM
This is so obviously because not everyone can or could at the time "easily tell what make and model a car is" which is why they would say "all cars look alike."  You seem to think that if you or any one person can/could easily tell makes and models of cars apart from certain years or decades then EVERYONE else can/could as well but that's simply not the case.

"Look alike" opinions about modern cars of the time were around in the 1910s, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, etc.  These opinions are not new or unique to today just as opposite opinions (i.e. cars don't all look alike) have been around for decades too and yes, these opposing opinions can now exist and did in the past exist simultaneously.

Would agree that in the infancy of the automobile, 1900's -1930's, cars did "look alike"  In 1927 along came Harley Earl, who designed the 1927 LaSalle.  The rest is history, as manufacturers focused on styling, to take away the sameness of appearance.  I would concede that in all probability many individuals have never been concerned with make, model and year of cars.  In my childhood, all the boys I hung around with, always knew the make and year of all cars in the 50's.  We used to make annual pilgrimages to the local automobile dealerships, to see the new models up close and personal.  We would point out to each other the differences of the new models to the preceding years.

Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: gary griffin on November 30, 2017, 05:06:47 PM
And we are om the way to all cars looking alike again.  I saw a TV discussion about this over 20 years ago. A Ford engineer  used the Continental trunk hump as an example. Removing that improved gas mileage so it had to go. All cars are designed on the computer using wind tunnel calculations to figure the best profile. Not much fun to watch many colors of almost identical SUV's going down the road, with only the badges showing the brand.
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on November 30, 2017, 05:46:23 PM
The next problem is that to see what the badges are, in a lot of cases, one has to be up that close to differentiate between them that one could get accused of something immoral.

Plus, the companies are always changing their badge design.   Even Cadillac messed up with theirs.   Everything has to be "Futuristic" for some reason.

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: Looking to the future of classic cars.
Post by: Big Apple Caddy on November 30, 2017, 08:04:15 PM
Quote from: e.mason on November 30, 2017, 12:49:52 PM
Would agree that in the infancy of the automobile, 1900's -1930's, cars did "look alike"  In 1927 along came Harley Earl, who designed the 1927 LaSalle.  The rest is history, as manufacturers focused on styling, to take away the sameness of appearance.  I would concede that in all probability many individuals have never been concerned with make, model and year of cars.  In my childhood, all the boys I hung around with, always knew the make and year of all cars in the 50's.  We used to make annual pilgrimages to the local automobile dealerships, to see the new models up close and personal.  We would point out to each other the differences of the new models to the preceding years.

Sure and when you were a kid admiring the new 1950s models, members of classic car clubs were blasting same as being look alike, lacking originality, etc and were instead praising cars from decades before for their individual design, being from the golden age of autos, etc including the very same decades of cars you just labeled here as "look alike."  For example, see “Fast Growing Club of Ancient Auto Owners Look on New Cars With Disdain" article I posted on page 2 of this topic.

These types of "competing" opinions have been repeated with each passing generation and again and again, decade after decade, opinions exist that cars look alike.  It's nothing new or unique to today, ten years ago, twenty years ago or any particular decade.