1970 DeVille, New tires, Bias or Diamondback Double Stripes???

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

I do not see "original appearance" in your earlier post.

One could also say "original appearing reproduction" or any number of other phrases to rationalize that fact that anything is not an item that was original to the car.

I prefer the term "faked original", because that is what it is to me.

[cadillacmike68]

I wasn't finished with my reply:

I do not see "original appearance" in your earlier post.

One could also say "original appearing reproduction" or any number of other phrases to rationalize that fact that anything is not an item that was original to the car.

I prefer the term "faked original", because that is what it is to me.



And now I have a starter to try and change.

[cadillacmike68]

Steve, we've met a few times.

You don't drive your cars the distances that I do. Your cars are quite nice, extremely nice, but you don't put anywhere near the miles I do on my 1968.

I've probably driven more miles in a month in my 68 that you put on all your classics combined in an entire year.

And that firestone issue was ford's asinine decision to lower their too high vehicle 4 psi below firestone's recommended minimum just to get the thing a little lower so it would pass rollover tests...

How did this go again in order:

1 ford makes the explorer Suburban Uhttack Vehicle
2 it is too high with the selected Firestone tires to pass rollover tests
3 ford decides to lower the vehicle's stated tire pressure to 4 PSI BELOW the minimum that Firestone recommends for that tire.
4. vehicle is now low enough to pass rollover tests
5. tires fail at high speeds because of ford's decision.

[Scot Minesinger]

Mike is right, the bias ply tires are made for show cars, not to be driven in daily traffic.  As a licensed professional engineer in several states entrusted to protect the public, I advise that bias ply tire equipped automobiles should not be driven at high speed or in heavy traffic, as a tire failure could also endanger adjacent motorists.  Understand that many have driven with bias ply tires at high speed successfully, just as many have driven over the speed limit, over the alcohol limit and etc. without incident.  The chances of an unfavorable outcome as a result of bias ply tire use is higher than with radial tires.  If anything ever happens to my family as a result of the use of bias ply tires by another motorist that are undoubtedly endorsed by an antique car club, you can bet I will sue that club in addition to of course the offending motorist.

Frankly, on the 1961 thru 1972 (or whatever the cut off year is) the radials look better than the bias ply tires, as safe always is more appealing to me.  Not to mention the drive with radials is nice than bias ply tires. 

I have heard stories where the Corvette club times how long it takes the cigarette lighter to pop out when judging a car.  Cadillac is a different kind of club.  The Chevrolets are much simpler than Cadillacs and to restore them to a winning Chevy level would be prohibitive for most people in the club now. 

Read Dan's and Mike's post - two people you would love to have at GN - they are passing in part due to this kind of thing.  I'm going to the judging school to learn myself in April and be sure of these rules.  If confirmed, I will likely be driving along side of Dan and Mike instead of carefully with a crappy set of bias ply tires on my Cadillac around a show field.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

    Radial tires in applications where not originally available, provided the tires appear substantially the same as the original bias-ply tires; the radials should have the same aspect ratio, sidewall height, and whitewall width (when applicable).

If such a thing exists as a radial that fits all these items, I've never seen it.

Visual differences between the two constructions are height, width, WW recessed (bias), raised (radial), tread/groove pattern and lettering/nomenclature. 

This advantages of radial construction has been hashed to death, none of which has ever been in dispute in the first place.

At issue is whether a distinction between a car with having tires of ORIGINAL APPEARANCE (emphasis added so nobody is confused  ) should be made on the show field for purposes of authenticity, therefore scoring -  as opposed with tires that are not.

Personally, I've never had a problem with maintaining control over a car with biases installed. However, if I were using the car to commute to work daily on congested highways, that would be a different matter entirely. Hell, I might even install disc brakes as well.

That does not, would not, indeed should not - entitle me to expect CLC Judging Standards to be rewritten to accommodate the way I opted to accessorize my car, even were within my power to do so.

Furthermore, it would be a cold day on the equator before a judging tally on a piece of paper stand between me and  enjoyment of showing my car, and of course all the proceedings of a CLC GN - no matter if my car were green with pink polka dots(!) and genuinely feel sorry for anybody who would allow such triviality to stand in their way of having an enjoyable GN experience.

Maybe it's just me...

[35-709]

Furthermore, it would be a cold day on the equator before a judging tally on a piece of paper stand between me and  enjoyment of showing my car, and of course all the proceedings of a CLC GN - no matter if my car were green with pink polka dots(!) and truly feel sorry for anybody who would allow such triviality to stand in their way of having an enjoyable GN. 

Bingo !

I have taken my '35 resto-mod, Big Red, to GNs and had a great time.  Even had a popular contributor to this site avoid talking to me because my car was modified, not unexpected that it happened but was unexpected from that particular person.  And now --- resto-mods will be "welcomed" and judged!  Whether my car is liked or not, I truly enjoy being at the GNs when I can be there.

[wrefakis]

As delivered to original owner at time of purchase

Cadillac exclusive item

My bumper guards

they are correct 1970 Cadillac custom fit dealer installed for original owner

no point deduction

original owner could never been supplied radials or 2 stage paint

see you at grand national in my 05 town car

[Scot Minesinger]

Steven,

We all have taken risks without consequence, recommend quit while you are ahead.  Your 1962 is a fantastic Cadillac!

[cadillacmike68]

Mike and Scot,

I have put 19,000 miles on my original bias ply BF Goodrich. They have taken me from Tampa, Florida to New Bern, North Carolina for the AACA Grand National. I also drove twice from Tampa, Florida to Biloxi, Mississippi for Cruisin' The Coast. I never felt like I didn't have control of the car or fear of a blowout. I put that mileage in past 8 years, 2015 saw little mileage due to all the rain here.

Yes, I probably don't put the mileage you two do on your cars. I guess if I did put more mileage during a similar period of time, I probably would put radials on it. It would be more from a cost standpoint and not a safety one. Then my car would also become a daily driver and not a show car. It's all in what each person wants.

Bottom line, bias ply tires do not make me feel unsafe.

Steve,

I've put about 60-70,000 miles on my 1968 since I got it in 1998 and it was getting body and paint for 5 years. I was also deployed on 5 nearly year long combat zone tours as well. Two of those were while the car was in the body paint phase, so about 11-12 years of driving 60-70,00 miles, nearly all in FL (one trip to Atlanta).

I didn't buy it to sit in a garage and get trailered to shows (not that you do). It'll never be that nice anyway. 

Starter is in, that was a PITA of the first order of magnitude. 

[Scot Minesinger]

Mike,

Why was the starter a PIA?  Was it because the flywheel cover was not cut?  I never thought that the starter was bad until I came across a 472 where the flywheel cover was not cut.  Still have the original starter in my 1970 SDV with 37k miles.  Had to drop the starter (did not replace it) to change rear main seal (did that when changed timing chain and oil pan was off)

Driven my one 1970 DVC 40 k miles in 11 years. 

My red 1970 DVC wins peer choice shows in my area regularly (not always), when there are 90 cars (it is usually be decade).  It is a real nice car, not perfect through.  If it was judged only on authenticity it might do as well.  It sure is an enjoyable drive though, and I drove it today.

[cadillacmike68]

Scot,

I don't have a lift, so I'm under the car flat on my back with my (now slightly oversized) midsection barely able to fit under the frame cross members, oil pan etc. while on the creeper (not a low profile one). The inner solenoid terminal is not even visible, so I have to undo and redo it by feel, I have a small oil leak (only while running) which keeps the bottom parts lubed, so greasy hands, and then the thing is so heavy. Actually it wasn't as bad as when I last changed it myself about 16 years ago. Back then I had my 13 yr old nephew helping and he couldn't get the starter bolts started while my arms were giving out from holding it up. This time I was able to hold it up and get the bolts started alone.  The fact that it partially sits inside the bell housing and the center link is up front helps to keep it from tumbling out. The boss lady was there feeding me tools, towels, etc.

She was amazed when I finished, remarking on how determined & tough I was.

I replied, as I always do with "I'm Airborne!" 

As the Queen would put it, she was "Not Amused". 

I had to mount it twice. The solenoid heat shield was on wrong on the bad one, and I duplicated the location. When I saw it mounted, I noticed that it would act as a heat concentrater instead of a shield, so I had to undo the two anchor bolts, and rotate the shield. And then remount it.

My old uniform t-shirt was grime covered from the shoulders to the waist. good thing I'm a Retired Col, the SGMs would go apesh!t if I ever took my coat off with that shirt.

I'm going to post in Technical what I instantly noticed about the bad starter with some  pics.

We both cleaned up and went for a nice sunset drive. An Absolutely Beautiful evening here...

I still have the (nearly) stock 1996 Fleetwood Brougham that I could take to the GN, it'll be a quieter less fatiguing ride, and the the car is Very nice. I even got 4 new corner fender "spears" to replace the ones where the mylar bubbles up. I would need to get rid of the water marks all over it, but that should be possible.

However, even that car has a few items that will give the judges an knipshin fit, namely:

Dark tinted windows. I don't want to hear it, you all don't live in FL and the heat / sun will bake the dashboard and everything inside to crumbling particles. I use the car, it has nearly 100,000 miles on it. The sun baked the clearcoat off the front bumper of my 1995.

Larger 1990-92 Hood ornament. The one Cadillac used (same as on the tiny El Dorado) is TOO SMALL for a car that size! 

Trailer hitch, again I don't want to hear it. I seem to recall that the 1994-96 catalogs show the Fleetwood trailering a mobile home. How is that done without a trailer hitch. 

I had the dealer a pair of wreaths & crests at the very rear of rear quarter panels, to give it a late 1960s Fleetwood 60 special type of look.

Lloyds floor mats. I have the originals somewhere in the garage or attic. All 4 have wreaths and crests. You can never have enough wreaths & crests on a Fleetwood. 

And of course it is festooned with lots of Airborne wings and Bronze Star decals an Airborne front plate and a US Paratrooper rear plate. I had to show my 1981 Airborne school graduation orders to get that plate.

So,

Do I go back and get more of the same as in 2012 (where my car's engine compartment "needed to be detailed - umm it rained daily then and I took the car out every night for dinner), or do I go to an island beach resort for the weekend?

Oh, and all 3 of my cigarette lighters (and all their lights) work like new as opposed to the single one in a corvette.  ;Dc


Bill,

Town car Blasphemy. 

I still want that 1970 Fleetwood Brougham when you tire of it.

[cadillacmike68]

Leave the fly dung out in the Florida sun and it will turn to pepper soon enough! 

[Scot Minesinger]

Mike,

I don't want a lift because it takes up too much room in a garage.  The shop manual specifically states that to change a starter the car must be raised on jack stands (not a lift).  If you use a lift to change a starter you will not repair this Cadillac authentically.  I'm sure your authentic repair technique will bear fruit.

BTW when my creeper is too high I just go in without it, way more room then.  The creeper I use now is one of those red dog bone shaped deals, fairly nice.  Also laying on my back is fairly comfortable, it never bothers me, as opposed to standing and doing the job.  I'm sure a lift is better, but it is not in the cards for me, probably ever - so it is fun to joke about how a creeper is better than a lift, when it may not be - I really don't know.

Enjoy your Cadillac!

[cadillacmike68]

So it does.  Well I did it right then. With the rear of the car lower the starter will tend to sit back in the bell housing making it less likely to tumble out.

Now for the bad news. I'm missing the support bracket. I can see it in the pic in the manual at Engine - Mechanical, but My car doesn't have it. I'll have to have one made and installed.

[Scot Minesinger]

Also, Mike I have made my own out of a piece of 1/8" x 1" steel strap you can buy at HD on the 472/500 block starter.  This is a very important bracket, and unfortunately tossed aside with heat shield by many mechanics replacing a starter.

[jdemerson]

    Radial tires in applications where not originally available, provided the tires appear substantially the same as the original bias-ply tires; the radials should have the same aspect ratio, sidewall height, and whitewall width (when applicable).

If such a thing exists as a radial that fits all these items, I've never seen it.

Visual differences between the two constructions are height, width, WW recessed (bias), raised (radial), tread/groove pattern and lettering/nomenclature. 

This advantages of radial construction has been hashed to death, none of which has ever been in dispute in the first place.

At issue is whether a distinction between a car with having tires of ORIGINAL APPEARANCE (emphasis added so nobody is confused  ) should be made on the show field for purposes of authenticity, therefore scoring -  as opposed with tires that are not.

Eric,

     I respectfully differ with you. Classic style radial tires, similar to what is described in red, do exist. Here is a link to one, and I'm told there are others:
https://www.cokertire.com/tires/styles/bias-look-radials/american-classic-bias-profile-radials.html

Here is the description for that particular classic radial.
Wide Whitewall Radial Tires | American Classic Tire

Coker Tire Company's award-winning Bias Look Radial American Classic tire is made in the USA and thoroughly tested to ensure superb quality for your collector vehicle. You can trust that American Classic Wide Whitewall Radial tires are ready for the road, but they're also ready for the show field with beautiful styling and a whitewall that is built in to the tire from day one. The genuine whitewall construction, along with the "pie crust" shoulder and vintage-style tread pattern give this tire the original look, while the steel belted radial internals make it the perfect choice for a car that will see plenty of miles. This is a tubeless tire, but keep in mind that tubes are required on some OEM and reproduction wire wheels.

Please note that I'm not promoting Coker tires, even though I do have "original bias ply" Coker tires on my old Cadillac. (I'd prefer the radial version.) What I do believe is that it would be entirely possible, reasonable, and consistent with present rules exceptions, to have a statement along the lines of what is in red above. I'd actually prefer a somewhat more liberal version, but I worded it as I did in hopes of satisfying the many purists. Presumably tires like this exist for many old Cadillacs, but not for all. Of course this discussion pertains to pre-1972 Cadillac, because radials were first optional from the factory on Cadillac in 1972. Any suggested changes and improvements to the draft wording would be welcomed.

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac 6219X with Coker bias-ply tires

[76eldo]

I have my 70 on a lift today and now that I am looking at the Firestone 721's that are on the car close up, there are no cracks, no dry rotting, no cracks in the tread and no irregularities on the tires at all and they appear to have about 80 + tread.

So these are throw-aways at this point because they are old?

Another can of worms...

Brian

[STS05lg]

Brian, I can only tell you my experience. My 76 Eldorado had a set of 721,s with approximately 2,000 miles on them. When Ray drove the car from Michigan to Arlington last fall the belts inside the tires started to come apart. Now the car was keep in heated winter storage the whole time Ray had her and never driven from October to April. Just like your tires the tread and sidewalks looked almost new but internally they were coming apart. In fact I drove the car about 50 miles the second day I had her and once I got her up to about 60 mph I thought I was loosing a trans Axel. This is not a knock on Firestone or the 721's it just for some reason 10-15 year old tires will breakdown from the inside out when driven at interstate speed. Just my thoughts.
Best, Lynn

[Scot Minesinger]

Had a set of tires from 2003 that I replaced in 2014.  Reason was they drove terrible.  Then checked date code and saw that they were past 6 years old.  If the tires are older (check date code) and the cut off is six years I think, they need to be replaced.  However, if it was seven years old and condition as you describe, I might go another season.  After ten years no way.  I use the what appear to be decent 8 year old tires to have a car I'm working be able to roll, or give them away to friends who don't care.  If they are real bad then they go to the dump.

[76eldo]

I will be replacing them but what a waste.  Good looking tires too.

Brian