Author Topic: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC  (Read 535 times)

Offline cadillacmike68

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Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« on: April 04, 2017, 01:53:13 PM »
Ok, so wind back to late Oct, when I had to have the DeVille towed from Daytona to Tampa. I was at a loss so I had it dropped off at a trusted shop. They told me that it was bad points and a worn out (solenoid overheated and literally baked) starter. 

Points were nearly new with a reman distributor, but apparently they were cheap chicom points. I gave them a set of quality DELCO points, and I bought a few new older better made sets from fleabay.

I had previously bought an ACDelco reman starter and had it in the garage. I brought it to the shop for them to install. I had my original starter (Original, not "restored to original, appearance",etc.) overhauled at a local auto electric shop. So this ACDelco starter was in the car for approx. 4 & 1/2 months. It never sounded or felt right though. I sometimes felt and sounded like it was slamming the bendix gear into the flywheel. Not good, but I wasn't sure what the cause was. I eventually found out.

Fast forward to about a week and 1/2 ago. The boss lady calls me in a panic stating that the water heater is leaking and there's water all over the garage. She made it sound like there was a lake on the garage floor. The WH is in the right corner and the DeVille is parked on that side, so I asked to just back it out  and then she could get to the WH and shut it off.

Well, she said the car won't start - some terrible noise when she turned the key. I had just used it two days ago. She put the phone on and turned the key. It sounded like some was trying very hard to grind the gears off with a manual transmission. I had to hasten home, where sure enough the starter was FUBAR'd. A couple of days later we got the WH replaced. I had to push the 4,600 pound car back and forth a half dozen times. Good thing the garage is level.

This past Saturday, I finally had time to get under the car and managed to get the old one out. I instantly noticed what was wrong. Take a look at the photos:

That's some crack. It might have been from the very beginning, but I didn't notice, not being the person installed it. Note that the shaft end is also blown out.

Anyway I managed to get my original starter, back in. I had to mount it twice, because after I first got it in, I noticed that the heat shield was rotated incorrectly (I duplicated the previously mounting position) and it was such that it would act as a heat concentrater onto the solenoid instead of a heat shield.  :o  That's probably why it got cooked so fast. I had pulled it a few years ago (Jan 2014) and had it rebuilt again.   

So off it came and back on. My arms were about wore out after that. I re-attached the electrical connections, lowered the car and it started up just fine. so my slamming sensation, etc.

I also noticed that my car has been lacking the front of the starter support bracket. It wasn't there in 2000 when I had the starter rebuilt the first time, so it's been long gone... I'm looking for another bracket or will get some 1 x 1/8 galvanized steel from the homeless despot as Scot mentioned.

Anyone ever see a starter casing crack like this? I had attachment bolts snap off (corrosion) in the boat, before the casing cracked...  ???

SO, did i just get a bad case with a hairline crack? or might it have been improperly mounted? The shop used two shims on this reman one, but my original never needed shims.



« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 01:55:16 PM by cadillacmike68 »
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2017, 02:27:32 PM »
Mike,
I'll try and give you the short version.  First of all the -1847 starter IS NOT THE CORRECT ONE.  It has been erroneously listed as the "standard duty" starter for Cadillacs and has led many many many people down a frustrating road.  The correct starter if you are going to AC Delco would be the 323-364 s"High Torque" starter.  The case is longer allowing for larger field coils and a longer armature which IS REQUIRED for normal Cadillac duty.

That said, from what you say it sounds like the starter was not set up correctly when installed.  There is a reason a package of shims comes with the starters.  The clearance between the Bendix teeth and the flywheel teeth has to be correct and can be shimmed to do so.  The specs are in the FSM, but I typically use a large paper clip wire as my gauge. Yours might have needed more than two shims, I don't know.

An incorrect clearance would lead to excess stress on the starter's Bendkx and the front end of the armature shaft, putting strain on what is a fragile Aluminum case. 
Another common cause of case cracking is when a starter "kicks back" while cranking, again the case is fragile.

The starter strap you are missing was deemed necessary by the Engineers, so I would do what I could to replace it.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2017, 02:49:22 PM »
And I ordered a "Hi torque" starter... Well, that's on me for not checking the box more carefully. But rockauto and others all say the one I got is a match for 1968 Cadillacs.  ???

So how much longer is the high torque casing? my original starter and this one looked to be the same size.

There no spec for bendix gear clearance in the manual that I can find.

Should I have this one rebuilt (if they can even do it) or should I get a 323-364 one?

I'm going to check with the local auto electric but I'll probably get then hi torque one.

And I'm looking for the support bracket or I'll make one.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadman56

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2017, 04:51:11 PM »
Hello Mike,
That broken nose cone, as we called it in the parts store, is due to improper set up but mostly due to no front support bracket.  If memory serves me correctly, the two large bolts are directly in line normal to the crank.  That is the main reason the front support is needed.
Still trying to sell all my 68 stuff, 2 convertible projects and a coupe w/factory discs.
Good luck,  sorry to hear all the frustration.
Larry
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2017, 07:37:36 PM »
Hello Mike,
That broken nose cone, as we called it in the parts store, is due to improper set up but mostly due to no front support bracket.  If memory serves me correctly, the two large bolts are directly in line normal to the crank.  That is the main reason the front support is needed.
Still trying to sell all my 68 stuff, 2 convertible projects and a coupe w/factory discs.
Good luck,  sorry to hear all the frustration.
Larry

Larry, That crack is only 1 of two and its in the wrong spot. It is not a result of a stress fracture from weight. Otherwise the crack would have been along a different line.  The photos of the starter basically upside down, for there to have been an overloading failure, the cracks would have been in a different location. The location of the more open crack along the line of the bolts is likely an indication of over-stressing along the axis that the two bolts are on, i.e., crank force, not perpendicular weight overstress.

Like I stated, it never sounded or felt right from the day it was installed. Possibly shimmed too much. Yes, both cracks are probably the result of improper installation, but and this is important:

My original starter is now back in the car, and operating as it did before the solenoid got baked, i.e, no starting issues or bad feel or sounds (with no shims as it has always been).

It has also been in the car for at least 19 years with no front bracket, because when I removed it for rebuilding back in 2000 there was no front bracket. It's probably been there much longer, as many as 49 years.  And it isn't cracked.

Now, when I put both parts, 323-364 and 336-1847, on ACDELCO.com, they Both show up as being applicable to Cadillacs from 1966-84 for the 323-564 and 1065-83 for the 336-1847.

So I ordered a 323-364 and will have a new / replacement case put on the 336-1847. and if the original one goes bad again, I'll be sure to install one of these myself.

The auto electric shop told me very clearly that the starter I brought them today IS a high torque starter. He also mentioned using a paper clip to measure the tooth gap b/w the flywheel and the bendix gears. Problem is How do I do that unless I remove the bell housing? Is there an inspection panel?
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 07:47:13 PM by cadillacmike68 »
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2017, 07:43:11 PM »


"So I ordered a 323-684 and will have a new..."
Mike I hope that is 364.
The 1847 is about 30% less powerful than the other.  It is an acceptable starter if you are going to drive your cadillac twice a year and NEVER try and start it when it is hot on a hot day.

Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2017, 07:46:45 PM »
Greg, Yes, 323-364.  my error.  I will only use the larger one (and it will be good to compare the two when they are both here!).

Interestingly they are both listed as applying to many V8s from the mid 60s to the mid 80s and beyond even down to 5.0L engines. In a 7.75L or 8.2L engine, especially a high compression 1968-70 Cadillac, well the smaller one is probably not a great choice.


Now, Scot M wrote this on the tire size thread in General, but I'm posting it here, because I don't know what he means by "flywheel cut".  Is it a cut to allow tooth gap inspection??

Mike,

Why was the starter a PIA?  Was it because the flywheel cover was not cut?  I never thought that the starter was bad until I came across a 472 where the flywheel cover was not cut.  Still have the original starter in my 1970 SDV with 37k miles.  Had to drop the starter (did not replace it) to change rear main seal (did that when changed timing chain and oil pan was off)... 
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 07:49:48 PM by cadillacmike68 »
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Scot Minesinger

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2017, 08:33:33 PM »
Mike, glad to explain, but it is not for inspection purposes.  The original flywheel cover for my 1970 had a hole in it for the starter, and to remove the flywheel cover the starter had to be dropped.  I see that any 472 Cadillac with replacement starter has a cut in the flywheel cover on either side of the edge of the hole so it is more of a notch and the cover can be dropped without removing starter. 

When you removed starter did the cover have a round hole?  If not it was cut. 

You should easily be able to make a front starter bracket out of 1/8" 1" strap steel stock from HD, will take 5 minutes, easier than hunting one down.

Anyway, starters have been difficult for me.  I get used ones rebuilt and then I'm good.  Greg helped me deal with a crappy starter at GN 2013.  The replacement sold to me was a driver side mount.  I got home OK.  These parts places have to be double checked very thoroughly.  Hence now I do any work possible myself out of necessity.  And it is fun, glad it kind of worked out this way.

I have had to shim starters on Cadillac 472 engines.  I forget the procedure, but it was well explained in directions and I just read them each time, not much trouble.  If it sounds wrong upon start up, shimming is likely.  The directions discuss this sound thing too.  It is best not to start a car that needs a starter shimmed either.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2017, 02:11:30 AM »
So, just a length on 1" x 1/8 steel, drill, cut to fit and drill holes at each end for attaching - right? I go right by HD & Lowes nearly every day, so I guess that's where I'll get it. I hope the threaded hole in my block is not filled with a broken off bolt!

The starter in the car now is the original one, It's been in there for ages, doesn't need any shims,  starts very nicely (except when it's HOT). When it dies, I just get it rebuilt at a local auto electric shop. The spare was meant for just that, but I never test installed it - who would want to.

One would think that ACDelco would have good quality control, but I guess that's not the case. Either that or it was over-shimmed when installed last October.

I can't remember the shape of the hole, and I'm not dropping the starter again until this on needs rebuilding again, unless I can get it up on a lift (with the front tilted up a little higher, of course).

Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Scot Minesinger

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #9 on: April 05, 2017, 07:29:47 AM »
Mike,

Yes just a short length, maybe 6" or so, a vice, a hammer and a drill to make it.  HD sells them in 3' lengths, so you get a few do overs if needed.  The block hole is very unlikely to be filled with a broken bolt, as these straps were generally missing due to sloppy/lazy mechanical work.

Cut the length of strap an inch or two too longer than needed (maybe 3 inches) and drill the hole for the block mount.  You will have to bend the metal at an angle using vice and hammer.  The important thing is that the metal is flat against block and the plane of the metal bracket is perpendicular to the starter bolt.  It may be easier to make one out of cardboard fist to see what it will look like.  It will have two creases (not perpendicular to length of strap - very critical), near each near hole and maybe a 3 or 4 inch straight section.  If you have made brackets like this before it will be a snap, otherwise this is a very simple one and good to try as your first.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Offline bcroe

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Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #10 on: April 05, 2017, 09:18:07 AM »
What I have seen of starters, is high torque have longer internals, but the
overall length is the same.  Note in the picture posted, the wire stub comes
out of the motor body far back, and attaches to the solenoid terminal by about
a 3/4" long spacer.  For a lesser starter that stub is right at the solenoid
terminal, no spacer because the internals are shorter. 

To make starter swaps a lot less difficult, mine get the wires attached on the
bench, then just push the assembly up and a couple bolts.  The 2 wires are then
connected to the rest of the circuit at the fender.  Bruce Roe

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2017, 12:48:31 AM »
Ok, so the new (reman) 323-364 starter arrived. I compared it to the 338-1847

The two are identical in size, shape and weight (both 17.6 lbs), so if there are heavier duty windings, etc in it as compared to the 336-1847, they did it with no weight increase.  The solenoid goes into the main casing at the same spot on both. Although the solenoid on the 232-364 is a little shorter, it just has a longer extension.

I could have sworn that that thing weighed over 30 lbs when I was trying to lift it up into position for the 2nd time...

I'll be trying to get a front strap in this weekend if the boss lady doesn't commandeer my time for Easter too much.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Jeff Rose CLC #28373

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #12 on: April 13, 2017, 06:53:19 AM »
I agree.
It seems to weigh 17.6 pounds taking it down, but 30 pounds during the install--when you are holding it with 1 hand trying to get the bolt in.
Jeff
Jeff
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille
1955 Series 62

Offline bcroe

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Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #13 on: April 13, 2017, 10:08:14 AM »
I'd take the end cap off, and peak inside to see how the internals compare.  Bruce Roe

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #14 on: April 13, 2017, 10:14:07 AM »
Just  checked and of course you are correct.  They are now using the same case for both.  The standard used to be a n inch or so shorter.  Apparently they are putting both sets of windings in the same case. When I have nothing to do I'll put the two apart and verify the actual physical differences.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2017, 12:50:41 PM »
Greg, Bruce,

Good idea to take the end caps off and peek inside; after I get a few other things done on the car itself. Like that crazy throttle shaft holder on the frame, the working clock, the fight front blinker housing, and probably a few other things that don't come to mind at present. Oh yeah, and the trunk pulldown on the Fleetwood and left fog lamp on the STS... The list goes on...
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline bcroe

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Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2017, 02:19:11 PM »
Quote from: cadillacmike68
Good idea to take the end caps off and peek inside; after I get a few other things done on the car itself. Like that crazy throttle shaft holder on the frame, the working clock, the fight front blinker housing, and probably a few other things that don't come to mind at present. Oh yeah, and the trunk pulldown on the Fleetwood and left fog lamp on the STS... The list goes on...   

A friend (who owns the better part of a hundred unusual, restored vehicles) told me,
"The more stuff you have, the harder it is to keep it all working.".  He is right.

That in part, is why when something breaks, I try to redesign it so it will never break
again, or at least will be as easy as possible to service.  Bruce Roe

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Starting Motor issues 1968 DVC
« Reply #17 on: November 07, 2017, 10:51:17 PM »
OK,so you have all seen the bearings problem that kind of put any starter motor issues WAY on the back burner, but the engine is now assembled and back in the car, and hopefully will be fired up by tomorrow.

I had purchased a couple of pieces of strap steel from the homeless despot and the shop was going to hammer one into shape for a bracket / brace, but I did some digging and found out that GM part # 03965588, widely available because its for a chevy, (wouldn't you know) fits this engine Perfectly!

Amazon link of you want one:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B019XESKSM/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

OPGI has it for over $25 !?!?!

I ordered the amazon one (and the small block one just in case) and it fits like it was made for the Cadillac engine.  Of course it came black, so I used a bit of Bill Hirsch Cadillac Dark Blue engine enamel and it looks great. I have a pic that I'll post when it get my phone pics DL'd to the ThinkPad.

Now if only everything else for this car was this easy.....
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible