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Newbie Advice

Started by Brubaker, October 22, 2017, 10:31:09 PM

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Brubaker

Newbie here . . . new to CLC and in the market for my FIRST Cadillac!  Although I have admired "classic" Cadillacs for years.  I want a 1969 or 1970 DeVille Convertible.  What advice would anyone care to share on what to look for . . . or what to look-out for?  I have been following various auctions and looking at several classic-car-sales venues, but the results seem erratic to me, and I feel lost as to what $$ to offer that would be "fair" to both the seller and myself.  Any advice appreciated.  Thanks in advance.

gary griffin


Hi Newbie,

  You are asking an almost impossible question that needs clarification prior to a valid answer.

  Daily driver or Parade car or between?

   Where are you? Can you travel to buy a car? If not able to travel and drive home figure shipping into your price

   Are you willing to take a risk on eBay? With enough pictures and seller having multiple sales with no problems I have taken a few risks with no surprises.

   Can you check a car out mechanically? If not will you be having professional inspection??

   A few times I have flown to look at the car prior to deciding to buy. Always a good choice in my opinion. Costs less than any major repairs would!

   It is almost always best to buy the best car you find. Fixing or restoring a car always takes longer and costs more than expected.

   I am sure you will get additional advice from others on the forum.  Most sellers are honest but many do not know their cars as well as you or a professional inspector would.

Good Luck!!

   
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

TJ Hopland

Not being a Mustang or Camaro there is very little to nothing reproduced for the body and interior so ideally you want that stuff to all be there and rust free.   Mechanical running gear stuff for the most part is available from regular parts stores so nothing to worry about there.

I believe 69 and 70 had front disc standard and they were the single piston floating caliper style used on everything so much easier to support than the earlier optional 4 piston calipers.   

No body fillers yet, those were not till 73. 

Both those years would be high compression engines so require premium fuel.   Lead has never been a big concern for the 472.

Timing chain cam sprocket pretty much needs to be replaced at this age if its still original.   

Climate controls from this era seem to be more not working than working at this age but generally are repairable.    A couple years ago the subject of repairing these hardy came up but lately it seems like almost once a month.   Must just be the plastics and rubbers they used are at end of their lives even under optimum conditions. 

   
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Brubaker

Thank You, Gary, for your reply.

When I buy a classic Cadillac, it will be to enjoy it and drive it occasionally (clear spring, summer, and fall weekends).  I am not interested in a #1 or even #2 car because I would want to be able to breathe in its presence -- and I couldn't afford one anyway.  A #3 or solid #4 car is what I want -- and can afford -- but I would also do what's necessary to care for the car and "at least" maintain its value over time.

I know some experienced car-people in the mid-Atlantic area (Maryland, Virginia) where I live -- one gentleman worked for years at White Post Restorations -- so I certainly can and would have a "local" car checked-out.  I appreciate your comments about eBay . . . and I suppose I am scared to buy a car on eBay, especially a "classic" car, because the condition of the car relative to what you are paying for it is paramount.

Watching some recent auctions on eBay is what has added to my confusion, however.  One 1970 DeVille Convertible, being sold by a classic car dealer, and by all description was a #2, didn't get bid-up beyond $15K (the reserve was not met) . . . then two others which in my estimation were described by their owners as #4's sold for under $10K.  I was looking at two others that were listed for $20K (minimum), described, in my estimation, as #3/#4, which got no bids at all.  I contacted one of the $20K owners that I was watching and told him that the market didn't seem to support his asking price . . . and if he would consider a significantly lower price, I would like to come see the car -- but I got no response.

I fully admit that I am new to the business of classic cars . . . I have a lot to learn . . . and I guess the bottom line is that I don't want to get "burned" . . . so I joined CLC in the hope that its members could help me make a better buying decision.  I know that individual cars/owners/buyers situations affect price and that "worth" is whatever someone is willing to pay at a given moment in time, but in today's market (the classic car market feels "soft" to me, at least in the less than #2 category) do you [or anyone else] have an opinion as to the "FAIR" price/value of a true #3 or #4 1970 DeVille Convertible?

I'm also curious about your opinion of "original" cars.  Do the dealer-installed options (pedestal hood ornament, wire wheels,etc.) that were offered in 1970 detract from the value of a car?  I don't particularly care for the pedestal hood ornament in-conjunction with the front above-grill ornament, but I have to admit that I like the look of wire wheels on those old cars -- but you don't get a nice set of original hubcaps with the wire option.  I'm assuming that a re-upholstered interior is preferable to a terrible original interior; but does a re-upholstered interior detract from the value versus a nice original interior?  What if the Body Plate indicates White Leather Seats and Red Carpet -- but the car has White Leather and New Black Carpet -- is the car worth less because of that?

One half of me just wants to go out and buy a 1970 DC for the heck of it and have some fun . . . but the other half is concerned about "value" (cost vs condition) and not getting "ripped-off".  Any help I can get (from anyone out there!) to help reconcile these two would be much appreciated.  THANK YOU!

Brubaker

Thanks TJ.  Funny, I did notice on several 69/70 DeVille Convertible listings that the A/C was "not working" -- and when it was, the seller seemed to make a big deal out of that!  Agreed that a "complete" car is a necessity and good to know that mechanical parts/repair shouldn't be too onerous.  I feel like the hardest thing to determine, especially with e-based sales (Gary referenced eBay in his earlier reply), is the body condition (rust).  I really hate rust.  Thank You for replying.

TJ Hopland

Convertibles are often worse for rust with their more prone to leak with age tops plus in some cases the extra bracing of the frames creates pockets that retain moisture and rot from inside out. 

Just curious why you are not also considering 71-76 Eldo?  I would not be afraid of the FWD.  If you don't like the style that is another problem.   There seems to usually be plenty of those around especially 76's.   It does seem odd that there seems to be more of those around than the 69-70 you are looking at.   Quick look they made around 15,000 of those each year.   Eldo convert was only that high the last year, previous years were closer to half that number.   

Just plain AC not working isn't anything unusual or special,  refrigerant leaks were as common when they were fairly new as they are today.   What I was referring too that seems more like more recent age related issue is the control system no longer working enough to even get by.   Up until a few years ago I could reliably get heat and defrost when I wanted it from my 73 but now I can't get heat out of any vent no matter what I do.   Something finally completely degraded and I'm guessing the blend door is stuck shut.   Like I said seems I'm not the only one, over the last year or two lots of people having similar issues with this era car/ system.     

So one more thing to check on a test drive.   Try the various modes and make sure you can make the air flow move to the proper vents and try it in auto (set on the high side of the dial if AC not working) to see if it appears to regulate the temp properly.   Constant clicking from the dash is a sign of things not being right.   Mine used to click in some modes but that too has quit recently. 

There is a member here that goes by Cadillac Tim that repairs these systems and has made a modern repair manual for several versions of these systems.   Shop manuals are decent but were wrote for dealers with the dealer tools and what the expected the failure modes to be on systems that were only a few years old.   Tim's manuals draw from his experience repairing them recently using more common tools.  It sounds like often times there are not major hardware failures so its mostly just a tedious process of cleaning, lubricating, and tracing lots of vacuum hoses and wires. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Dan LeBlanc

I have a 70 deVille convertible and it is a very nice car to drive.  The only drawback about it (as with any convertible) is the wind noise from the top.  I have installed a silencer pad above my head as it was not done when my top was replaced and it cut the noise by almost half . . . make sure the car you're looking at has it.  Much quieter with the top down than the top up though (which is not a bad thing).  The car is very fun to drive, however.  Plenty of power.  Drives quite like a modern car.  Incredibly comfortable.  I know after a long drive I don't feel tired like I have with other cars.

You really can't go wrong with a 70's Cadillac of any model really.  I think you'll like it.

I'm now looking to add a closed 70's car to my fleet now for the long, quiet drives.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Brubaker

TJ,

I also like the 71 Eldorado Convertible -- but nothing later because of the reduced horsepower regulations.  FWD per se doesn't bother me.  I didn't mention the 71 Eldorado Convertible because I prefer the look of the 69/70 DeVille Convertible and I'm only looking for (1) car right now!  Understood regarding the A/C -- I picked-up on your "plastics and rubbers being at the end of their lives" comment in your first reply.

Thanks for the comments/advice/suggestions.

Brubaker

Dan,

I love the wind!  I have a 2007 Mustang GT Convertible now -- not collectible, but I love it!  Your comments make me want a 70 DeVille Convertible even more -- I hope I can get myself over the hump, find a good candidate, and take the plunge!

Thanks.

chrisntam

#9
I have a '70 and suggest you too get a '70. 

My "requirements" were any exterior color except white and no white interior. Cruise control is a must.

Here's one along the Texas / Oklahoma border.

https://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/cto/d/1970-cadillac-deville/6350712476.html

It's been for sale for a while.  Thing about this one is it is a factory non-a/c car - few of those were made.
Mine is an a/c car, I don't use it except to see if it still works.

I'm not a fan of the white interior though.

More to come once I read thru your posts.

chris.
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

59-in-pieces

Newbie,
This may surprise some who know me.

Buy the best condition car you can afford (in, out & mechanicals) - have it checked out by a pro.(money well spent).
The last thing you need is to face surprises - discouragement of repairs, leading to disappointments associated with not being able to enjoy driving your first adventures into classic cars.

A convertible - nothing better, coupled with enjoyable operations for the foreseeable future.
Which just may result in a long term member of the CLC.

Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

chrisntam

I was set on buying a '70.  Wanted it original for the most part.  More options, the better.  Here's a link that discusses this car.  It also talks of standard equipment and optional equipment.  If you see a car with a rubber hose from the top of the air cleaner and it goes towards the front of the car (to an emission tank), that was a car destined for California.  Cars with auto leveling also have hoses to the air cleaner top, but they got to the compressor hanging on the strut under the hood.

convertibles didn't come with struts from the firewall to the fenders, don't know why.  Some air cleaner lids are smooth, some have indentions on them, also don't know why.  Most parts are available and most are on eBay.  There are one or two sellers on eBay that offer their parts for 4 times of what the cost should be.  Don't know why, except they are fishing.

http://automotivemileposts.com/cadillac/cadi1970selections.shtml

My car has a/c, tilt/tele, remote trunk release, pull down trunk, auto leveling, cruise, non stereo am/fm, tinted glass, door edge guards, twilight sentinel. 

I looked for about 2 years for my car.  I flew to Florida to check it out, ended up buying it.  It had one repaint, but other than that, it was pretty original.  I had it shipped to Dallas.

I rebuilt the motor, had the trans gone thru, new tires, radiator, got the a/c working (compressor, evap, valves, drier).  Added new padding to the front seat, replaced the top lift cylinder/hoses.  Springs, shocks, brakes.  Added the factory radio back in with new speakers.  New carpet, dynamat, dynaliner too.  Want to make it a dependable driver.  Lots more I want to do to it.    Have yet to go thru the front suspension and steering, working on the rear now.  Needs exhaust and the list goes on.

As said previously, make sure all the systems work.  A/C, windows, top, doors shut well, etc.  But do remember, its a 47 year old car, they all generally need something.  It appears that I'm trying to make mine new again.   ;)  If you have the money, it's cheaper to buy one that has been gone through.  If you don't have the money, buy the best one you can afford and then do the stuff when you can. In the end, you be money ahead if you buy one done, but that's no fun.  I know my car inside and out because I've done most of the work myself.  That's fun for me, except regular life gets in the way sometimes.

Definitely inspect it or have it looked at by someone knowledgeable.  Never buy sight unseen.  Take a refrigerator magnet to find excess body filler.  Common areas of rust are lower fenders and lower rear quarters.  My car was undercoated, so no under body issues.  Though where it was not undercoated, it is a little crusty here and there, but not bad.  It was originally from New York state.

eBay, Craigslist, Hemmings, auto trader, I'm sure you know where to look.  since you joined the club, you'll be getting the Self Starter, the club magazine, it has cars for sale in it.  Also look at the "Newsletter" section of the website, look at each newsletter, some advertise their cars for sale there.  Put an ad in the "cars wanted" section here.

I'll send you a pm as well.

Best of luck to you on your search, the search is enjoyable too!
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

Brubaker

59 (Hope You Can Make It Whole) - Sounds like good advice!

chrisntam - Lots of information and good advice!

Thank You!

dochawk

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on October 23, 2017, 03:08:54 PM
I have a 70 deVille convertible and it is a very nice car to drive.  The only drawback about it (as with any convertible) is the wind noise from the top.

You're doing it wrong.

The dust cover is supposed to come down before you drive it!

:)

(on my Miata, well under 1,000 of the 70,000 miles are with the top up . . . )

hawk
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

dochawk

Quote from: Brubaker on October 23, 2017, 04:24:47 PM
TJ,

I also like the 71 Eldorado Convertible -- but nothing later because of the reduced horsepower regulations.

Not really--the 71 and 72 are actually identical in power.  They *look* like different numbers because 1971 and earlier reported gross horsepower, while 1972 and later are reported as net.

If you find someplace that reports both figures for 1971 and 1972 cadillac, you'll see that they're the same.

1971 is about a 10% drop from 1970 due to the drop in compression (400hp to 370 for the Eldorado 500, iirc).

And in 1973, the Great Emasculation was under way, with annual or semiannual drops in power.

Anyway, the point is not to avoid a '72 over horsepower, as it's the same as the '71.  And once you set a side that fictitious 1/3 drop at '71, the others really don't look *that* bad (although the emissions and other changes, such as fillers, have their own issues).

happy hunting

hawk

p.s.  I think some other gm brands *did* have other emasculations in '72, such as Chevy dropping the 4-barrel on the 400.
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)