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346 water in the oil and cylinders??

Started by gary griffin, December 13, 2017, 07:17:24 PM

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gary griffin

For the third time, I get it running well and steam starts and water pours out of the tail pipe.  I pulled a head with water in the cylinders and and inspected it carefully and could not find a flaw in the head or visible in the cylinders or block. A small amount of water in the oil also. I am mystified and going broke buying "Best Gaskets"  The engine started well and ran well but steam was in the exhaust. It is a cold day in Seattle and I thought it was exhaust but when it persisted I shut down and found it was water vapor.

Is there a way to detect leaks in the internals of the engine? Has anybody else had a similar problem and if so what was the solution??

I have been told by a few old timers to use bars leak or some other compound is any rebuild??  Could be a very small leak?
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Bobby B

Gary,
Hi. We've been through this a few times. Some cracks are undetectable by the naked eye. Obviously, something is wrong. Call my cell phone  tomorrow when you get up. I'll be able to talk because I'll be on the road. You need to do a compression and/or leak down test before getting upset. I went through 3 blocks on the last go 'round before I found a good one. I spent $1700.00 on machining work for one block only to find out it was cracked, luckily BEFORE assembly. The stubborn machinist didn't listen to me regarding magna-fluxing, and went ahead and did a beautiful job on a cracked block. And believe me, I was sick to my stomach over that. He made good for some, but the setback really knocked the wind out of my sails. Hang in there.....
         Bobby
           973-886-8365 EST
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

gary griffin

#2
 Thanks for the response and offer Bobby.

It has been quite a while with the long periods of time I was not working on the car. I had a reputable shop do the work but I am sure the warranty is long gone. I did not request magnafluxing but wish I had now.  Time to find a good block I guess. I have .030 over bore and hopefully the internals can be moved to another block if I go that way.  Welding with a Ni (hi nickle) rod may be an answer??
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Caddyholic

I got myself a Cadillac but I can't afford the gasoline (AC/DC Down Payment Blues)

1961 Series 62 Convertible Coupe http://bit.ly/1RCYsVZ
1962 Coupe Deville

Bobby B

Quote from: Caddyholic on December 13, 2017, 08:27:08 PM
Can these blocks be sleeved?

Jim,
Hi. More like "Pinned" or "Cold Stitched". The cracks are usually in the same three spots. Most common is in-between the valve seats because there's not much area there. Then off the top of the cylinder. Have also had cracks in the top crossover between the smaller freeze out plugs. Sleeving, of course. "Pinning" or "Cold Stitching", up to you. Have yet to see a cylinder wall Cracked on a Flathead. Usually you sleeve when the bore is too far gone or out-of-round.
                                                                          Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

las39

Here is a picture of my block re-sleeved due to the above mentioned cracks around valve. It can be done and works fine.
1939 LaSalle 5027
1941 Chrysler Royal Coupe
1934 Oldsmobile F34
1976 Moto Guzzi Convert

gary griffin

#6
Thanks for all of the ideas!   Since no water is ending up on the garage floor and I  think water is in both sides of the engine, and it comes out in a high volume over a short time I am suspecting the soft plugs in the crossover between the cylinder banks.  I will try a radiator pressure test but doubt I will be able to build up pressure with the hand pump that is in the radiator test kit.  I recall having to have a soft plug changed due to a pin hole in it.  The pictures show the problem at that time. 

My guess is that one of them will be the problem, either one of tphte ones previously installed or the new one?
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

jackworstell

Gary...after you check out the cross over plugs I hope you will report the results.

I've always wondered about the chances of these plugs giving trouble......

Jack Worstell

Steve Passmore

#8
Hang on Gary. I thought you started this thread with water coming out the exhaust and you pulled a head to find water in the cylinders no??  If one of the small crossover plugs failed that would not give you these symptoms, It would come out under the manifold. There is no way a plug failing is going to get water into the cylinders??  Are we on the same page?
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

harry s

Autoluke that posts on here had a similar problem with his newly machine shop rebuilt engine recently. I'm not sure what exactly they found but hopefully he will see this and respond. Given the amount of trouble you have had Gary I would think this is more than just a head gasket. Good Luck,     Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Steve Passmore

Quote from: harry s on December 14, 2017, 11:59:18 AM
Autoluke that posts on here had a similar problem with his newly machine shop rebuilt engine recently. I'm not sure what exactly they found but hopefully he will see this and respond. Given the amount of trouble you have had Gary I would think this is more than just a head gasket. Good Luck,     Harry

I believe he changed blocks harry.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

harry s

He did end up changing blocks but there was an obscure crack or break in the old one as I recall. It was not the usual crack in the valve train/upper cylinder area and not so obvious as to be noticed in the original rebuild.     Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

The Tassie Devil(le)

One of the major problems with rebuilding an engine is after it is built, and started and then let set for a few months, which turns in to many years, the Head Gaskets can fail simply because they never received their "stickicity" from being used.   Nothing likes sitting around.

I did hear od a story from GM that if an engine was built, and it didn't go into a vehicle for a month, it was scrapped, as the company didn't want to run the risk of leaks from non-use.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

59-in-pieces

I have read several of these similar posts and the cracks are notoriously in similar areas.
But, I don't think I read why these blocks crack where they do.
Is it because the engines have been wound too tight - hot rodding - recently or back in the day.
Or, are there design flaws.
Anybody know.
Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

Steve Passmore

#14
Steve, one of the tiny tweaks they did in 41 to increase the BHP was to scallop away the metal at this part of the block for a better flow of air in and out of the combustion chamber. This reduced the thickness so making it weaker. I personally have never seen one of the earlier engines have this problem although some have. Just my two-pennies-worth.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

gary griffin

#15
  I lost a lot of pictures when my old phone was damaged so the only pictures of the internals are in the restoration forum. I took the pictures at the machine shop and never really studied them. I see some problems in the gasket seating area but not sure if that is where the problems are? I will bump it to top of Restoration forum if anybody is interested. My engine is on second page. It appears that the problem could be between the middle cylinder on either or both sides ? 

 
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

The Tassie Devil(le)

Something there doesn't look very nice.

I notice that the picture thread was dated 2012, so if it sat around for that long without the gaskets being properly sealed through heat cycling, then I would be inclined to simply put the heads back on with new gaskets and fire it up, and run it in, then do more tests, as in compression tests.

I am not sure if it has been mentioned, but have you inspected the old head gaskets for incomplete sealing?

I rebuilt an engine which wasn't supposed to sit around for so long (moved house) and that leaked at the gaskets.   When the work on the car was fully completed, reinstalling new gaskets fixed the problem.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

gary griffin


Thanks for response Bruce.   First it leaked and then we put in new "Best" Gaskets and it leaked again. Ran well with low water but then we filled to top of radiator and ran it again with no radiator cap so it would not build up pressure. I was taught to run until warm then cool off and torque again. Never got that far with this car.

I am leaning towards believing there is a leak low in the internals because saw no I indication of  leakage until we filled it.
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

The Tassie Devil(le)

I have had very good results with Bar's Leak, and wouldn't hesitate in using it again and again.

Seeing as we don't have cold enough weather down here where I live, (Actually not many places in Australia where one requires to put in any anti-freeze liquid), I am not really familiar with where engines crack under cold conditions, so looking for cracks in abnormal places is unfamiliar to me.

Funny thing though, when I bored out the SBC engine in one of my Hot Rods, going to .060 oversize discovered a large pinhole, low down in the wall of a cylinder.   Scratched it clean, and building core sand came out, so, seeing as it was at about 1" above the piston bottom dead centre, we simply bronzed it over, and all was good.   The things one does when one has to.   This imperfection or possible core-shift wasn't picked up when the block was cast, and still wasn't picked up when the block was machined.

The Gasket surface areas really need to be perfect to allow the gaskets a chance of a good seal.

Put a straight edge over the whole area, and see if there is any visible imperfections.

I would be recommending biting the bullet and have the block decked, even though it means removing and completely stripping down.   And while it is bare, have it crack-tested.

Bruce.  >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

autoluke

Harry..

You are correct.
After chasing the leak as an issue on the block surface , we finally found the problem to be an erosion of the casting adjacent to the lower cylinder wall.
Seems that the shop missed the area during magnaflux.
Phil Lukens