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anti freeze flush/thermostat

Started by Cape Cod Fleetwood, February 17, 2018, 02:13:10 AM

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Cape Cod Fleetwood

I'm having surgery next Wednesday, minor, cancer, no big deal, day surgery. But the doc said I'd be "uncomfortable" for several days afterwards. So I canned my work schedule for the rest of the week and weekend and have every intention of using these few days laced on pain killers to work on The Ark. What could go wrong?

I know I can change the plugs and wires, fuel filter, change the PS fluid old school and really concentrate hard and change the air filter. Now for the radiator flush -

I'm going to do it "old school", draining from the bottom of the radiator (which is new, plastic tanks), refill with water, run with the defrost set to ICE, and heat to 85, drain, refill with water, run with the heat, drain. Change the therm, refill with fresh green Prestone 50/50, new radiator cap. Shop manual says to add a "cooling system conditioner regardless of whether or not the coolant used contains an inhibitor". Assuming this is for rust. My mech punted on recommending a conditioner and said this forum would be best to seek advice. So, what do use? And there's a 99.9% chance this it totally unnecessary too, but I have no mntx records with the car.

Mech recommended using Permatex Ultra Gray gasket sealer, prolly because he uses it on his Permatex funny car. And he recommended adding a second layer of sealant between the gasket and therm, the shop manual is fuzzy on this - one assumes the sealant will be between the block and gasket... but the shop manual says "position a new gasket coated with gasket cement on cylinder block". Or am I being too Naval Aviation? Does that mean coated on both sides?

As always, any and all information and opinion is greatly appreciated. \m/

Laurie!

PS I've been ORDERED by AD and AM (where's CadillacMike68?) NOT to wash the engine in a DIY bay. Was told to use heavy duty Gunk, brush to my little heart's content and hose off with a garden hose. If I feel that feminine need to 'dust' use my compressor. Fortunately the wx is turning warmer next week so I'll bring an outdoor water faucet and hose back on line for this evolution. The last thing I need is more expense and 2 guys gleefully saying "TOLD YA!".
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

#1
Sounds like you have a plan laid out.  Good.

A few additional points to add:

-- To do a thorough job, pull the block drains on either
side of the engine boss.  You'll find them (1 brass plug
per side) just above the oil pan on the block.  You may
need a wire hanger (put up the plug hole)to loosen crud
that builds in the lower water jacket.  Make sure these
run freely as you flush.

-- Use a good type of "universal" coolant -- that's
the new version of the old green Prestone.  It's
Prestone "Gold".  However, the green stuff works
well but just has to be changed every 2 years.

-- You don't need any other inhibitors or additives the
Prestone has you covered.

-- Plain old black Permatex is what I always used and
be sure to coat BOTH sides of the thermostat gasket.
Of course, be sure you make squeaky clean both
sides where the gasket seats -- housing and the block.
I use a gasket scraper and emery paper gently if
needed.

-- Since you are going through all this trouble are you
replacing hoses too?  A good idea if you don't know how
old yours are.

Good luck -- we're here for any further questions.
Hope your surgery goes well and GO NAVY!

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

76eldo

It all sounds good but I have never pulled block plugs from any car I have ever owned for fear of stripping the threads.

If the car is not overheating currently and you are doing preventative maintenance I would just leave them alone.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Scot Minesinger

Yes agree with Brian, never pulled block plugs either for fear of stripping them, and do not use an additive sealer like your mechanic suggested.  That is for cars with aluminum to cast iron engine parts that may have compromises in gaskets, whereas your all iron (except for pistons) Cadillac engine should not, plus it gunks up the works.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

chrisntam

I opened the block plugs two years after the rebuild and had no issues.

An original engine where they've never been touched is like opening a can of worms.  I wouldn't do it, unless you like to be challenged.  It "may" be ok, but maybe not.

Back in the day ('70s & '80s) we used to use these: 
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

TJ Hopland

When you said 50/50 you mean the pre mix stuff? And your end goal is 50/50?    If so I would also pick up a jug of straight stuff and a tester just to make sure you end up at 50/50 when you are done.  Usually there will be some water you can't easily get out that will then throw your mix off.

Make sure you get a good quality stat that has the proper extra disc on the bottom.  Some places sell you what may be a Chev stat that fits fine but doesn't have that extra disc on the bottom.   That flange blocks the warm up bypass passage so you get maximum flow through the radiator when you need it.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

#6
When I first did mine on the 70 I took the heater core return line off (by the filler neck) and stuck it over the side into a trash can. I had a garden hose on low and stuck it in the filler neck to keep the radiator full. I started the car and let the gunk flow into the trashcan. Only took a minute or so but the crap I got out of there would not have come out by just draining and refilling. After about a minute or 2 the gunk turned to clear water.
After I did that I ran the car on straight water until it was good and hot and under pressure. Then I drained it (still got crud out) and refilled with antifreeze. If your hoses are bad then you may want to change them first. I realize you will get gunk in the new hoses but my old hoses were coming apart on the inside and the flushing got the little pieces out.
On the 55 I flushed it the same way but then did the water fill, run and drain a couple times with distilled water. That way most of the tap water was out (I don't know if distilled makes a difference or not but this car may not be driven as much) then I filled it with full strength antifreeze to get the proper mix.
The best part is that the trashcan had a hole in it that I didn't see. When I came to dump it it was already empty. Oh well, never really liked that neighbor anyway.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

Cape Cod Fleetwood

Thanks guys!

For the record my mech did NOT recommend any sealer/conditioner as the 1970 shop manual says to use. He said to reach out here for guidance as I did. Good to know modern Prestone is enough.

Stat is the correct AC Delco #12T18E

New cap is AC Delco #12R7S, my dad always had caps with the pressure relief thingy.

Negative removing drain plugs, mech said leave those alone.

All the hoses appear to be brand new, the anti-freeze and stat probably are as well, if I only had that info in writing I wouldn't be doing this.

Was just looking at the therm gasket Summit sent me, has a 'sticky' side with a plastic liner. Assuming I'll just remove that and goo both sides.

Asked my mech if I should use a wire wheel on my drill to really clean the area around the therm, he again reminded me to keep my power tools away from the car. Just scrape with a scraper and take my time. I remember seeing my dad do this when I was so young, 8-10 years old, and he'd show me what he was doing. Scott (mech) said "you're dad will help you, just listen to him..." <tear>

I unwrapped the car a few days ago since there was no snow in the long range forecast. So of course 4-8" is expected tonight followed by a huge warm up starting tomorrow for the week. Just recovered the roof, its the weakest point on the car. Cover will come off as soon as the snow stops.

Thanks guys, really appreciate it! \m/

Laurie!
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

Regarding the block drains, I only recommended
that since it was my understanding that this car
had sat for a long period and you did not know the
maintenance history.

Quite a bit of rust and crud can accumulate in the
water jacket in that case.  When I first purchased
my '55 Eldorado, I did this as a precaution.  When
I removed the drain plugs not a drop of water came
out.  I had to use a piece of coat hanger wire on
both sides to unclog them.

With a hose in the radiator neck, I ran the car while
flushing it.  The amount of rust really surprised me.

So there you have it -- that's my opinion.  If, however
you're confident that the car doesn't need this, then
proceed accordingly.

Curious as to why did your mechanic recommend against
this?  It's really very simple.

Good luck,

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

cadillacmike68

#9
Quote from: chrisntam on February 17, 2018, 09:20:19 AM
I opened the block plugs two years after the rebuild and had no issues.

An original engine where they've never been touched is like opening a can of worms.  I wouldn't do it, unless you like to be challenged.  It "may" be ok, but maybe not.

Back in the day ('70s & '80s) we used to use these: 

I still use those and have the t-fitting on my 1968 and 1996. You definitely want a flush kit. with the flushing concentrate. Prestone and Peak etc. have the kits at the parts stores. You need the flush to get all the crud out of the system.

As for the wand in the self DIY car cleaning bay for the engine. You can use it but don't jam it in there; keep its distance. I don't because I can get the same effect with a hose in my driveway.

Don't buy the 50/50 mix. It is a waste of money. I but the full strength and dilute it at home with an older jug. After the flush I would put in 1/2 the car capacity with full strength letting it push out the water from the flush. And I would not take out the drain plugs. You don't need to if you use the hose to power flush it.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

D.Yaros

Were it me, I would certainly try opening the drain plugs on the block, versus "puilling" them.  They should open with a bit of effort without stripping.

I would also want to back flush the cooling system, for which the pictured above Prestone Flush Kit is needed.
Dave Yaros
CLC #25195
55 Coupe de Ville
92 Allante
62 Olds  

You will find me on the web @:
http://GDYNets.atwebpages.com  -Dave's Den
http://graylady.atwebpages.com -'55 CDV site
http://www.freewebs.com/jeandaveyaros  -Saved 62 (Oldsmobile) Web Site
The home of Car Collector Chronicles.  A  monthly GDYNets newsletter focusing on classic car collecting.
http://www.scribd.com/D_Yaros/

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

Dave:

When I said "pull" it was stated as a figure of speech.
Anybody surely knows that these brass pipe plugs
unscrew in the usual way:  "righty tighty, lefty loosey"
as the old saying goes.

Since they are brass and the engine block cast iron,
they will unscrew without too much effort if a proper
wrench is used.  Once they're out and the flushing
done I clean them, put a little teflon tape on and
reinstall.  Simple.

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Cape Cod Fleetwood

Hey guys, thanks for all the follow ups.
As for not removing the block plugs, just a "pucker factor" thing. The risk/reward just not great enough.
The car has been driving, quite a bit, before I got it. And judging by the new hoses and bright green anti freeze, this is again probably a waste of time and money.. but I have no mntx records for the car and need a place to start.

Mike when you're "flushing" do you have the engine running, with a hose putting water into the radiator at the filler and draining out the bottom of the radiator? Or did I miss understand?

I'd buy the pure Preston and mix it myself.

You guys rock! \m/
Laurie!
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

Cape Cod Fleetwood

Good grief... just came from the Preston website, the basic green does not have the inhibitors the others have and the 1970 shop manual demands. So, which Preston to get? I know not Dex-Cool. What say you guys?

https://prestone.com/products

Laurie?
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

chrisntam

I get Peak Antifreeze, they make a version for pre 1996 cars, IIRC.

chris.

1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

Laurie:

Yes, put the hose into the radiator neck, open the petcock
and run the engine as you flush.

Tell me what the Shop Manual says about the antifreeze
ingredients you're concerned about and I'll explain.

In general, all modern antifreeze formulations contain
corrosion inhibitors for protecting metals (for copper and
aluminum) as well as water pump lubricants, anti-foams,
and other ingredients so you really can't go wrong with a
name brand.

I've been using the "green" type in my cars for 50+ years
without issue.  Prestone, Peak, Xerex and many others are
all OK.

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

D.Yaros

Quote from: Mike Josephic  CLC #3877 on February 17, 2018, 06:55:20 PM
Dave:

When I said "pull" it was stated as a figure of speech.

Mike
Guess I missed that?  Did not see it stipulated "between the lines."   ???
Dave Yaros
CLC #25195
55 Coupe de Ville
92 Allante
62 Olds  

You will find me on the web @:
http://GDYNets.atwebpages.com  -Dave's Den
http://graylady.atwebpages.com -'55 CDV site
http://www.freewebs.com/jeandaveyaros  -Saved 62 (Oldsmobile) Web Site
The home of Car Collector Chronicles.  A  monthly GDYNets newsletter focusing on classic car collecting.
http://www.scribd.com/D_Yaros/

gkhashem

I removed the block plugs on my 1959, threads were clean as new. Also nothing came out since there was sediment sitting in there. So I poked the openings with a piece of firm metal and out the antifreeze flowed. Rinsed her out with water and put the plugs back in. Mine came out easy, so I imagine if they screw out easy there should be no issue. Any force needed would make me not do it.

I did this since my antifreeze had some discoloration of rust but since have drained and filled two more times and now is clean.
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

cadillacmike68

You can add a bottle of gunk or prestone water pump lube and anti rust if you want. That won't hurt anything.


Flush with the engine running until it comes out nice and clear. Then drain the radiator and file from the radiator top with the cap off the "T" fitting. It's all in the flush kit instructions.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

Cape Cod Fleetwood

Quote from: Mike Josephic  CLC #3877 on February 18, 2018, 04:12:26 PM
Laurie:

Yes, put the hose into the radiator neck, open the petcock
and run the engine as you flush.

Tell me what the Shop Manual says about the antifreeze
ingredients you're concerned about and I'll explain.

In general, all modern antifreeze formulations contain
corrosion inhibitors for protecting metals (for copper and
aluminum) as well as water pump lubricants, anti-foams,
and other ingredients so you really can't go wrong with a
name brand.

I've been using the "green" type in my cars for 50+ years
without issue.  Prestone, Peak, Xerex and many others are
all OK.

Mike

Got it, do it with the engine running, seems a lot faster than the manual too. Assuming I still keep the climate control to "ICE" and the heat cranked?

Manual says on page 6-5, point 6 - "After the drain points have been closed, add the required amount of ethylene glycol base combined with water to protect engine to at least -20F. Also use cooling system conditioner regardless of whether or the not coolant used contains an inhibitor."

Is this Prestone OK to use? I went to 3 local car parts stores, no one had the pure green!

Laurie?

There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all