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Problem with 78 Deville, EFI... Where are the pro's...

Started by Camillo Gornati, February 11, 2012, 05:19:08 PM

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Camillo Gornati

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 13, 2012, 04:58:52 PM
Sounds normal to me.

Bruce. >:D

there is a big metal noise, specially when when the gear doesnt engage...
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

The Tassie Devil(le)

I couldn't hear that on the video.

But, if the noise is consistent with the gear not engaging as the Starter starts to spin, then there is a problem with the engagement of the Starter.

The Starter isn't supposed to start to turn until the Bendix is fully engaged with the Ring Gear, and if it does, then I would be looking at slackness in the Solenoid plunger, pivot point, and the saddle which rides on the Bendix.

If there is too much wear here, then the teeth of the Ring Gear will wear out and require replacing the Flex Plate.

I have never heard of a case when the starter spins, then continues to engage the ring gear whilst spinning.   One usually has to try a couple of times before the teeth will mesh.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

Camillo Gornati

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 13, 2012, 06:24:18 PM
I couldn't hear that on the video.

But, if the noise is consistent with the gear not engaging as the Starter starts to spin, then there is a problem with the engagement of the Starter.

The Starter isn't supposed to start to turn until the Bendix is fully engaged with the Ring Gear, and if it does, then I would be looking at slackness in the Solenoid plunger, pivot point, and the saddle which rides on the Bendix.

If there is too much wear here, then the teeth of the Ring Gear will wear out and require replacing the Flex Plate.

I have never heard of a case when the starter spins, then continues to engage the ring gear whilst spinning.   One usually has to try a couple of times before the teeth will mesh.

Bruce. >:D

flexplate is brand new... will replace starter ASAP!!!
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

The Tassie Devil(le)

Before you replace the Starter, pull it and check for sloppiness in the bendix area, and the pivoting lever.   These parts are replaceable, and should be available at the dealer.

And, look closely at the condition of the Flex Plate ring gear teeth.   You might have to turn the crank a bit by hand to see the teeth, as these engines usually stop in one of three positions, and it is here where the teeth damage can be seen.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

waterzap

#24
It starts easily enough. The pumps come on and shuts off when the engine isnt running. Engine starts. Runs good.

Nice car. I might have to expand my collection one of these days.

On a side note, what do you do about the gasoline? Dont you have a lot of ethanol down there?
Leesburg, AL

Hankk17

I've owned a bunch of these and that "starter noise" is completely normal.
Wherever you go... There you are

Camillo Gornati

Quote from: Hankk17 on February 13, 2012, 11:37:12 PM
I've owned a bunch of these and that "starter noise" is completely normal.

well, if the starter noise is ok, lets move on to the stalling engine when hot issue...
lol...

Thanks for the replies.

Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

Camillo Gornati

Quote from: waterzap on February 13, 2012, 09:43:49 PM
It starts easily enough. The pumps come on and shuts off when the engine isnt running. Engine starts. Runs good.

Nice car. I might have to expand my collection one of these days.

On a side note, what do you do about the gasoline? Dont you have a lot of ethanol down there?

Gasoline here is pretty good, and yes we do have a lot of ethanol, every single gas station you are able to get GAS (petrol) Alcohol (ETHANOL) , DIESEL and PROPANE, we do have cars running on propane here, mostly TAXI's.
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

Camillo Gornati

TTT for a 78 in final restoration phase...
Anymore tips?
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

waterzap

#29
Have you replaced the temperature sensors? I know this is a long shot, but they do fail, and seeing you have replaced so many other things....

Also, dont worry about the fast idle valve. It really is just to increase the idle for a few seconds. When the temperature is warm, it should close in about a minute anyway. I have read that some people bypass it totally. Take it out, and have them install something to just keep the plunger closed. All that will happen is that your idle will be low when you start the car, and as the car heats up, it might increase a BIT. Try that and see if it works for you, get rid of one variable.

Your idle should be around 600 per the manual, but you can increase it a bit without any problems. In front of the throttle body there is a screw. Play around with that for the idle.

Also, is your EGR working?
Leesburg, AL

Camillo Gornati

Quote from: waterzap on February 14, 2012, 10:57:53 PM
Have you replaced the temperature sensors? I know this is a long shot, but they do fail, and seeing you have replaced so many other things....

Also, dont worry about the fast idle valve. It really is just to increase the idle for a few seconds. When the temperature is warm, it should close in about a minute anyway. I have read that some people bypass it totally. Take it out, and have them install something to just keep the plunger closed. All that will happen is that your idle will be low when you start the car, and as the car heats up, it might increase a BIT. Try that and see if it works for you, get rid of one variable.

Your idle should be around 600 per the manual, but you can increase it a bit without any problems. In front of the throttle body there is a screw. Play around with that for the idle.

Also, is your EGR working?

I dont know if the EGR is working, what are the simptoms? and how to test it?

The temperature sensors (there is 2 right?) i tested 1 year ago, using a meter, getting 1000 ohms with engine cool, those are cheap, i dont care changing them, if they have any problems.

Thanks again
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

waterzap

Leesburg, AL

Camillo Gornati

Quote from: waterzap on February 15, 2012, 09:43:14 PM
1000 ohms, they should be ok


Waldo and anybody else, do you think that a bad transducer and EGR could be causing this?
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

Camillo Gornati

no news yet, just received my EFI chart off ebay, still waiting on the EFI supplement to continue tests.
will keep you posted...
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

Camillo Gornati

just teceived the EFI DIAGNOSIS MANUAL, 82 pages of pure diagnosis, i will find this problem!!!

C
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

Camillo Gornati

Ok, as i promissed, I'm posting some advances...

After turning the engine a lot of times, i noticed that the starter had a broken neck, and to replace just the neck, was about the price of a new one from ROCKAUTO, i decided to get a new one form AC DELCO, costed me about 120 with shipping.

After doing some research on the net, i discovered that my last 2 starters went bad, because of the missing support in the back of the starter, so we had to fabricate one... took about 2 hours, but neo the new starter in from in place, no more metal clanking sounds when turning the engine!

Now the problem, after running the engine for 20 minutes with the fuel pressure gauge, the gauge was steady at 40 psi, with the fuel pressure regulator disconnected, steady 40 psi, until after 25 minutes, the EXTERNAL FUEL PUMP start doing some strong noises, and together with the noise, came the pressure drop, from 40 was oscillating to 13-25, and going back to 40psi...

Now the question is, the pump is not hot at all, so what i think is the fuel filter could be a problem, so, after 20 minutes we were able to open the container with fuel filter, replaced and tested.. same issue.

As there is no real prove that the external pump is bad, and the external pump is new, I'm thinking the problem could be internal pump failing to deliver fuel to the external one. could this be possible?

Anyway, as i live in Brasil, and is very hard and expensive to get parts, i decided to save on shipping and got both pumps new from ROCKAUTO, new strainer etc... will arrive here on the 29th, saturday we will change them and next sunday i will have some updates.

Now the question, could this be a issue with a temperature sensor? or a vacuum advance bad? engine timing is ok, @1400 rpm, TPS looks ok, fast idle valve is ok also, fuel pressure regulator is also ok, i will double check the sensors next saturday, car is one hour from me now, so i can only go there saturday!

Post me your opinions.

Thanks.

Camillo
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

waterzap

#36
Also, have them wash out the tank as best as possible and replace the fuel socket filter. Before buying anyhing else, do that pump first. I am almost 99% certain this is your problem. The fuel system from the back to the front is the internal pump, filter, external pump, hoses and then your fuel rail with the fuel regulator. But that is pretty much it.
Leesburg, AL

Camillo Gornati

ok,  tested temperature sensors, 950 ohms each, removed the tank, and new fuel pump the other mechanic had replaced, still had the old pre-filter, with a big hole... lets see the pics.

replaced in tank pump, replaced pre-filter, we are going out for a ride, will post results in a few minutes.
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

Camillo Gornati

ok, now fuel issue is gone, now cilinder #7 is failing, now diagnosing, if problem is spark plug, cable, bistributor, or what...
i will keep you guys posted..
Cgornati, proud owner of a 78 coupe deville and 64 Chevy impala SS

waterzap

First replace the plug. If still a problem, replace the wire. Then look into a new distributor cap and rotor.
Leesburg, AL