News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

Garage Question

Started by acedriale, February 17, 2018, 04:47:34 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

acedriale

Hello,
I've been contemplating either building a new garage on our existing plot of land or moving to a location with a larger garage onsite.  Here's my main question.  I can build a new garage where I'm at now, but would be restricted to at most 480-500 square feet of total floor space.  It could be insulated well and climate controlled since it'd be new construction.  But it'd be tough to do my own work (and store tools/workbenches/etc) with the limited floor space.

The wife and I are interested in a property nearby with an in-place detached 4-car garage (800 square feet).  Of course, the wife is not interested in the garage but in the rest of the property.  The estate there is old and dates back to the '20s.  The garage is extremely solid - brick with a slate roof and concrete floor (see picture), but is uninsulated. We did a walk-through last week and the concrete inside was damp from it being a warm/humid day.  Being in the Southeast and controlling for humidity is a concern of mine.   Do any of you have similar old-time garages in a humid locale and have any effective solutions for humidity control?

Thank you,
Alex
Norfolk, VA
A. Edrington

'55 Eldorado

D.Yaros

Would not insulating and air circulation handle the humidity concern?
Dave Yaros
CLC #25195
55 Coupe de Ville
92 Allante
62 Olds  

You will find me on the web @:
http://GDYNets.atwebpages.com  -Dave's Den
http://graylady.atwebpages.com -'55 CDV site
http://www.freewebs.com/jeandaveyaros  -Saved 62 (Oldsmobile) Web Site
The home of Car Collector Chronicles.  A  monthly GDYNets newsletter focusing on classic car collecting.
http://www.scribd.com/D_Yaros/

acedriale

Possibly, but my (selfish) concerns would be losing usable depth, as the garage is 20' x 40' as it sits.  Adding some perimeter insulation on the interior and all of a sudden a '74 Coupe de Ville won't fit without going in diagonally and even an '81 Fleetwood would be a tight fit.  I guess at the end of the day it all comes down to trade-offs (e.g., install a split system or large dehumidifier and give the power company some money vs. insulate and lose working space).

All of the doors are on rails and slide open, which I tend to prefer over the overhead door since I gain vertical space inside.  But then those ancient doors become an issue for insulation as well.

Alex
A. Edrington

'55 Eldorado

Barry M Wheeler #2189

Whatever you do, make very, very sure that your wife likes the home. If you purchase a home on the basis of the garage only, just remember that even loving wives have LONG memories. Your ability to purchase additional cars or equipment will rest solely on her enjoyment of her home. (Notice that I did not say "house" once. ) My son and daughter-in-law live in Richmond and looked for about a year to find a home small enough for the two of them now that both of my grandkids are married and on their own. They ended up with a home way bigger than they need simply because there wasn't anything like what they liked on the market. I'd stay away from the brick garage. It's probably going to be damp even if you frame in insulation. (And you'll lose almost a foot in square footage just with the framing.) Don't forget lifts...
Barry M. Wheeler #2189


1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville

acedriale

Hi Barry,
Thank you for the insight.  We're in a very similar situation to your son & daughter-in-law. There really aren't small homes here in the city with nice, expansive garages.  Most of the smaller homes don't have enough property to build a reasonable garage.  Which is where we're at now.  The wife wants a nice kitchen and a backyard "oasis" where she can relax a bit.  If we build a larger garage where we are now, the architects say her oasis will be staring at a garage. 

I could do a lift with the new garage here, which was my initial plan, but that doesn't fix ruining the view in the back yard.  The planners scoffed at my idea of a double-wide lift, as city regulations limit the garage height and the pitch of the roof and my driveway restrictions wouldn't allow for such a luxury.

The place we're considering has about 2x the space we want, but it is a nice quiet plot of land on the water without neighbors and has the larger garage footprint (albeit with the moisture concern). We'd probably end up shutting off some of the house since it's too much space for the two of us.  In a perfect world, she would have her kitchen and oasis and I would have my garage. 

If only life offered very clean and easy to make decisions.  But then I guess it would be no fun.

Alex

A. Edrington

'55 Eldorado

Chas

Alex......couldn’t help but notice your impressive current fleet, detailed below your signature line. Might I ask how do you store them now?
1967 Coupe DeVille
1970 Coupe DeVille
1976 Coupe DeVille
1983 Coupe DeVille
1977 Harley Cafe Racer
1991 Harley Fat Boy
1957 Harley Hardtail
1949 Lusse Bumper Car
If you're 25 years old and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're 45 years old and not a conservative, you have no money!

acedriale

Chas,
It's originally my Dad's fleet; he passed away in 2016.  He built a large Morton building in Indiana and had no difficulty with climate-controlled storage (or fleet size).  Just had to empty out the dehumidifiers once in a while. It's visible through the windshield in the attached image.

My wish is to continue enjoying the hobby in a downsized manner as is basically a necessity here in the city.  No Morton building here unless I want a 45 minute commute to work, but that would leave me with absolutely zero free time. The '55 Eldorado has been in a body shop for the past eight months in Indiana without much progress and I'm leaning towards finishing it here in VA.  But all of the completed brightwork would have to be protected from the harshness of our humid summers.  Also trying to help my mom with downsizing the collection, which is tough to do from across country but at least there is no urgency.

Alex
A. Edrington

'55 Eldorado

INTMD8

I would see if you can get a moisture test done on the slab. 

A lot of moisture can come up from the floor. If it isn't -too- much you can seal it with epoxy and urethane. 

If too much is coming up no coating will stick. (even if you grind the floor which should be done anyway).

As for insulation, I prefer spray foam. Even at 2in thickness between the studs it works amazingly well.

TJ Hopland

Does the new property have room for another garage and if it did could you afford to build one?   If so maybe the existing garage can be the storage one and the new one could be the shop?

Could you add depth to the existing garage(s)?    If you could just get one bay deeper that could be the work bay and the rest could just maybe get a door cut say between door 3 and 4 for access.  At that point the old back wall is an interior wall and won't need to loose the depth for insulation.   Adding onto the non street side may be cheaper since many codes are less strict on what something looks like if you can't see it from the street. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

savemy67

Hello Alex,

If your potential new home (including the garage) was built in the 1920s, then it was built in what I consider the sweet spot in time of American home construction.  Between WWI and WWII, American homes were built with real material (slate, brick, plaster, copper) and good workmanship.  At the same time, standardized "innovations" were adopted (terra cotta flue liners, regular framing spacing, armored cable).  While there were some holdover "antiquities" (glass fuses, coal furnaces), these could be replaced without wholesale remodeling of the home.

I would probably not attempt to insulate the garage.  The floor slab was probably poured without a vapor barrier.  While this may result in some amount of wicking through the slab, the biggest moisture problem you will have is condensation.  You can coat the floor as much as you want, but you will always have condensate on the floor because the floor is much colder than the warm humid air (Norfolk Summers are similar to Baltimore Summers where I live).

A large dehumidification set-up may be simpler than a 4-season HVAC set-up, but an HVAC set-up gives you the option of warmth during the winter - and more time to spend comfortably working on your cars.

I agree with TJ's suggestion to consider adding depth to the existing garage.  This would be relatively expensive if you want to to tie an expansion of the existing garage into the slate roof and have it look good.  You could consider using synthetic slate on the rear section of the roof.

I wish I had your problem.  I replaced my concrete driveway (10' x 33') by myself this past Fall.  In the Spring, I will build a temporary garage/carport so I can work on my car with some protection from the weather.  Still far from a fully enclosed 4 car garage, unheated though it may be.  Good luck with your new endeavor.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Scot Minesinger

To control humidity and temperature, the garage should be enclosed and insulated in addition to of course installing a dehumidifier plus a/c and heat system.  These are well worth adding because you can paint and raw metal parts do not rust.

The very difficult part of this modify old garage thing is that the garage was built and designed to breath.  If you add insulation, vapor barrier and seal it as is required for this modification you could accelerate rot and deterioration.  I'm a licensed professional engineer in VA, NC and other states.  You will receive all kinds of shoot from the hip advice.  To address this properly you need two types of help:

1.  Building science professional who is licensed and professional to advise you on how to insulate and vapor proof your existing garage envelope without causing harm to the existing structure.  Many poorly insulated homes have been foam sealed for better insulation value only to rot away structure. 

2.  Probably best to use one of those ductless split system heat pumps which will heat, cool and dehumidify, use a high end variable capacity with a thermostat (humidistat) that will control humidity levels too (removal only).

I built a detached garage on my property and the conditioned space inside is 1,060 sq ft with work shop plus conditioned storage loft - awesome - best thing I ever did.  It has geothermal heating and cooling - additional electric bill is only $30/month - all electric utilities.  Here it is in background of picture.  It blends with house - that kind of neighborhood.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

TJ Hopland

Good point about 'sealing up' an older building too good.     I got everything but my attic sealed up pretty good now.  When budget allows for the attic to get done to modern standards like the rest of the house I plan on also installing one of those air exchange deals like is required on new builds. 

For an older 'slab' could you do one of those snap flooring deals like RaceDeck?   They claim that air (or what ever) can flow below them so if you put a few of their vent/drain panels and then had decent airflow and dehumidification in the space?
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

acedriale

Wow, a lot of great responses  ;)  Thank you! 

TJ - it would be tough to expand the garage; the property lot is not your typical square or rectangle, and it just so happens that the rear of the garage is right on the property line.  This would have been the ideal solution if available.  RaceDeck seems like an interesting option - it possibly looks like the equivalent of putting a vapor barrier in the crawl space to keep damp air out of the home.  I'll have to look into this more.

Christopher - yes, these homes are bulletproof and the garage seems to be equally well built.  The slate roof is 100 years old and will still last another 100 years.  I'm impressed by the synthetic slate materials - there is an addition to the house and the synthetic looks just like the real thing. It's the first time I've seen those and they do look sharp. I do feel selfish for pursuing this route for a larger garage and am surprised that the opportunity has arisen.

Scot - thank you for the reasoned points.  It seems like the most likely option for humidity abatement is the split system to pull out humidity in the summer, and as a side-benefit, add heat in the winter.  But then I'd still want to get an expert to figure out best practices (e.g., would ridge vents be desired for air flow, would a racedeck floor or comparable assist as a vapor barrier, would any additional insulation be warranted, etc.).  As I'm sure is the case with most of us on the forum, we are very envious of your work shop! I bet that was a great feeling for you when it all came together.

In any case, the seller seems motivated due to personal circumstances so it looks like this may very well become a reality after all  :o

Alex
A. Edrington

'55 Eldorado

Skwerly62

Alex,
I had the benefit of buying my property with a new workshop/garage already installed. Have you thought about buying the new property and demolishing the garage? Then you can build a new one a little bigger with all the goodies? Not sure if that’s in your budget at all but sounds like it might keep the lost important person (wife) happy! Good luck!
1958 Extended Deck 62 Sedan SOLD
1960 Coupe - current project
USCG Vet - Fly CG!

wrench

#14
I don't know, man. The slab moisture problem you have in the pic above is not humidity. It is poorly designed gutters and drainage.

If it was me, i would install 4 inch gutters with some sort of 'gutter topper' system. I would not have the leaders discharge right in front of the garage doors, i would have them drain into some sort of buried pipes at the ends of the building that discharge away from the slab. I would also put apron drains in front of the slab and tie them into whatever leader drainage you install.

Of course, when you go to do the improvements to the drainage, you will find dry rotted wood in the soffits and fascia boards.

Have your house inspector inspect this area carefully noting the conditions.

Then you can worry about humidity...
1951 Series 62 Sedan
1969 Eldorado
1970 Eldorado (Triple Black w/power roof)
1958 Apache 3/4 ton 4x4
2005 F250
2014 FLHP
2014 SRX

gary griffin


When I built my 50 X 32 foot garage I thought I had it made. Partner wanted a guest suite above the garage so I gave in to her request and built a great apartment over 3 bays. Then I retired and started filling them up. I put a lift in bay 4 but, 1 to 3 will not accommodate lifts. 

A friend had to chip a recess in the concrete wall in the back of his garage to accommodate the rear bumper of his Lincoln.

Never enough garage is there I would love to find a house 1/2 the size of mine and room for at least twice the garage size I have now!
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

The Tassie Devil(le)

A friend of mine had to recess his brick wall in 8" to enable him to garage his '71 Eldo Convertible.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

acedriale

Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on February 19, 2018, 05:41:48 PM
A friend of mine had to recess his brick wall in 8" to enable him to garage his '71 Eldo Convertible.

Bruce. >:D

Good gosh I'd like to see a picture of that. 

I went down a 2nd rabbit hole on https://www.garagejournal.com/.  It's like this forum, but for garages  :o.  Wife would probably definitely bury me in the rubble if I told her I wanted to tear down and rebuild.  So I'll make the most of having a "classic" style garage, abate the humidity as much as possible, and deal with the 20' depth (although it looks like I can still fit in a 4-post lift).  I'll make sure to share some info/pics once I decide on a course of action.  :-[
A. Edrington

'55 Eldorado

The Tassie Devil(le)

I will get a picture one day, but all he did was to go up 4 feet from the floor, stick in a header beam to support the overhead brickwork, and simply knocked out the blocks under the beam, and re-laid them 8" further back.

He did glue a piece of carpet to the new wall so that he could simply nudge the bumper ends into it, and the roller door would just have sufficient clearance to close.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

WTL

Wow, they have 65k posts related to garages, and 100k related to tools.   :o