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Opinion(s) on 2001 NorthStar Engine with > 100,000 Miles

Started by Matt CLC#18621, May 24, 2017, 11:32:55 AM

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Matt CLC#18621


Dan LeBlanc

I would not recommend a pre-2004 Northstar regardless of mileage.

First generation Northstars used short, fine thread head bolts that pulled out of the block causing head gasket failure.

In 2000, they lengthened the head bolts and retained the fine thread.  Reduced the head gasket issues slightly.

In 2004, they switched to a long, coarse thread head bolt and that pretty much resolved the head gasket issues.  Coarse thread + aluminum = good.  Fine thread + aluminum = bad.

So, unless there is evidence of the head gasket being done and head studs installed, I would run away.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

I have a 2001 right now that a member of the 100K club. So far so good and a number I've seen some pushing 200K or better.

Another question is whether if heads have been done with updated hardware. That will make a BIG difference.

In the final analysis, it all comes down to price. If it'sa true low mileage gem in good colors in the model you want, it would be foolish to pass on the car if the numbers are right - especially if the cost of a head gasket job is reflected in the price.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Matt CLC#18621

Thank you Gentlemen,

What would a head gasket job cost...$1,500-$2,000?

What other checklist items should I be focusing on?

Thank you very much.

Matt CLC#18621

Dan LeBlanc

Head gasket job is about $3500 from a reputable shop that knows what to do with a Northstar (ie. head studs).

Other things to look at - if it's a deVille, it has two types of window regulators - ones that have broken, and ones that haven't broken yet.  If you're a DIY person, they're about $35 each on eBay without the motor (which never goes) and can be replaced in about 30 minutes.  Lots of YouTube videos on the replacements.

Another thing to look at is for harsh shifting between gears and code P1811.  That's a code that you never want to see for the transmission.  It's a $35 part and about $1200 labour (engine and trans have to drop out of the car).
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Matt CLC#18621

Thanks Dan,

How do I look at the codes, are they obtained using the radio or steering wheel buttons?

I'm actually looking at a 2001 Eldorado ETC and a 2001 Seville SLS in Edison NJ same original owner.

I'm focusing on the ETC as I have already had a 2004 Seville SLS that I sold with 213,000 miles, no engine issues, tranny was replaced at 165,000.

Thanks,

Matt

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Matt CLC#18621

What's the price, condition, colors and mileage?

ETC-$6,500/Very Good/Excellent/Crimson Red/125,000

SLS-$3,500/Good/Beige/178,000

Dan LeBlanc

Push the on off and info up buttons to the right of the cluster for 3 seconds until everything lights on the cluster.  When "all" is displayed in the message center, press on/off.  It will then scroll through the codes.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Rich S

I had a "pampered since day one" 2001 Seville SLS with 31,000 original miles that suffered the Northstar head gasket woes. It also had an expensive "torque converter clutch" go just before and bearings in the wheels that needed expensive repairs. It was gently driven by my elderly mother (original owner) and dealer serviced every few months. Therefore, I would avoid all Northstar equipped cars, and I feel that is why those are infrequently seen on the roads today. However, the head gasket failure began to show up when it was around fifteen years old--but a very nice riding and comfortable vehicle.
Rich Sullivan CLC #11473

1971 Eldo Conv., 2013 CTS Cpe

Matt CLC#18621

How would you compare the NorthStar to the HT-4100?
I had 3 with only one head gasket at 141,000.

I had a "pampered since day one" 2001 Seville SLS with 31,000 original miles that suffered the Northstar head gasket woes. It also had an expensive "torque converter clutch" go just before and bearings in the wheels that needed expensive repairs. It was gently driven by my elderly mother (original owner) and dealer serviced every few months. Therefore, I would avoid all Northstar equipped cars, and I feel that is why those are infrequently seen on the roads today. However, the head gasket failure began to show up when it was around fifteen years old--but a very nice riding and comfortable vehicle.

Matt CLC#18621

Were there any Cadillac / GM lawsuits or extended warranty claims on the NorthStar engine?
Thanks
Matt

smokuspollutus

Hi, I'm curious about this as well. It seems that the root cause of the first aluminum turkey was gasketing problems. Most every one of our 4.1 liters needed intake gaskets, and 1 did need a head gasket. It seems like no one really knows the cause of the Northstar problems though, ie why the threads strip. A mechanic friend theorizes its the same reason as the 4.1, old coolant becoming corrosive, just with a different effect that it corrodes the threads and not the gaskets. Not sure myself. Anyone have any more information on this?

Go figure, they fixed everything they had wrong with the previous gen engine, and then forget how to thread into aluminum!

Rich S

Quote from: Matt CLC#18621 on May 24, 2017, 03:36:07 PM
How would you compare the NorthStar to the HT-4100?
I had 3 with only one head gasket at 141,000.



When new, owned two HT 4100 (4.1 Liter) V-8 Cadillacs, an early '85 Fleetwood front-wheel drive, and an '85 Fleetwood Brougham rear wheel drive, and neither one suffered any problems (the front-wheel-drive was purchased at introduction in late July '84 and and only kept around six months and replaced by the bigger rear-wheel-drive model in February 1985), with the bigger model being kept around 34,000 miles and replaced in early '89 by a 4.5 liter V8 Cadillac Eldorado, and it was also a trouble-free engine for 40,000 miles. Same driver, same dealership service department. With advancing years, fewer miles were driven and she chose to keep the '01 SLS, until the engine required the big repair. The same dealer gave her $2,500 for the '01 SLS still in showroom condition. Trouble first appeared as the "Coolant" light coming on on the dash, if I recall.
Rich Sullivan CLC #11473

1971 Eldo Conv., 2013 CTS Cpe

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#14
Quote from: Matt CLC#18621 on May 24, 2017, 03:05:32 PM
What's the price, condition, colors and mileage?

ETC-$6,500/Very Good/Excellent/Crimson Red/125,000

SLS-$3,500/Good/Beige/178,000

SLS is priced at double market; the ETC is on the high side as well. For $6,500 the car would pretty much scream "NEW" in every department imaginable with 125K on the clock. 

With some patience, I think you could do considerably better than either of these offers.

HG job runs around $1,500 - $2,000 in these parts.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Ills of 4100 and Northstar are completely different. HT4100 had a host of other issues besides gaskets; issues with Northstar are pretty much confined to HG only.

HG failure is completely different in both engines as well. On HT4100, coolant enters crankcase where it ultimately destroys main engine bearings. This almost never happens on Northstar on which the head bolts stretch resulting in hot exhaust gases entering the coolant flow causing overheating. Main engine bearings and soft cam on HT4100 too.

Northstar is only 35% problem child; 4100 is 95%.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

76eldo

Matt,

I had a 99 Eldo with 100K miles on it.  I put a ton of money into it, fixing the head gaskets, resealing the bottom end and MUCH more.  I loved the way it looked.  It ran good for about a year and then the front of the block cracked for no reason.  Not from freezing, not from overheating, just running normally and just cracked.  It was only a weekend cruiser and never got driven much by me.

I put these cars in the same category as the HT4100.  STAY AWAY.

Buy a DTS after '05 unless you must have a 2 door.  Go with the lowest mile example Eldo you can find but just like any 4100 car, don't invest too much and be able to be a big boy and walk away if it takes a crap on you.  Because if it has not had the head gaskets and studs done and the bottom end resealed already it will need this.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

D.Smith

A friend bought a new 2001 Deville.   He was horrified that he had to add oil between changes on a new car.    He was adding a quart every 1,000 - 1,1100 miles.  Took it to several Cadillac dealers.  All of them said it was normal and that the factory wouldn't do anything unless it was 800 or less miles between oil addition required.  He traded the car in for a new Maxima.   We lost him as a Cadillac buyer. 

I bought a 2007 DTS after I read that the earlier oil consumption and head gasket failures were gone.  By 60K miles it began leaking oil.  Not severe, but enough to mention it to my service advisor at my Cadillac dealer.  He said "Live with it until it gets so bad you can't take the smell of burning oil.  Then the repair cost to replace all the gaskets will be close to $5,000."     

Horrified I asked if I should trade it in on a new XTS.   He said "No, your DTS is a better car.  The XTS owners are coming in for an oil change and we are doing 13 service bulletins worth of repairs and updates required by the factory.  Do you think it will get better or worse with age?.  Keep your DTS and live with the oil leak."

I kept the DTS one more year and then traded it in on a Chrysler 300 Limited AWD.    Loved it for 3 years and then traded it in for another Chrysler 300C AWD.   Love it.     No more HT4100s and no more Northstars for me thanks.

Matt CLC#18621

So if the 2001's head gasket has never been replaced, can the 2001's head bolts be changed to the 2004's head bolts to hopefully prevent the head gasket failure?

Thanks,
Matt


Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on May 24, 2017, 12:37:01 PM
I would not recommend a pre-2004 Northstar regardless of mileage.

First generation Northstars used short, fine thread head bolts that pulled out of the block causing head gasket failure.

In 2000, they lengthened the head bolts and retained the fine thread.  Reduced the head gasket issues slightly.

In 2004, they switched to a long, coarse thread head bolt and that pretty much resolved the head gasket issues.  Coarse thread + aluminum = good.  Fine thread + aluminum = bad.

So, unless there is evidence of the head gasket being done and head studs installed, I would run away.

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

There is an update kit with new bolts that is used in the repair.

If done properly, it should never have a problem again.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute