California residents: need help understanding fee structure. Title transfer ect

[V63]

Could California residents please advise/enlighten?

As an out of state (or out of country)  buyer of a used California Cadillac or Lasalle, how can you unveil the possible and hidden* 'non op' fees. What is the policy on how those are attached and accessed. Child support attachments or other unpleasant 'quiet' * surprises at title exchange.

My $1,500 experience with this was very unpleasant and I hope to enlighten others of this potential issue. 



* liens/ fees that are not noted on the paper title anywhere.

[m-mman]

Not sure of your question.

If you buy a car in California and take it someplace else, then you have left the state with the California paperwork. You owe California NOTHING. All fees, transfers, etc. are based on what your new place of titling and registration wants.

if you bought the car from a dealer they are required to charge sales tax and 'transfer the title' but if you are quickly leaving the sate you can request "buyer demands title" and the dealer will hand you the title they received and you are on your own. If you are leaving the state you can even exempt yourself from sales tax but that takes a detailed process.

Non- operation fees and child support should not apply in any way IF YOU ARE REMOVING THE CAR FROM California. (e.g. Not getting a Ca title)

FACT: the laws in CA are very convoluted and there are loopholes and nuances that even the DMV people do not understand. There are many, many stories about what you "must" do that are totally false. I have many times gone to the DMV and read from the vehicle code (I bring a copy with me) to the DMV person and sometimes I insist they bring a manager over if they dont know the process to insure that the transaction is done properly to my satisfaction.

Once I had to shout (so others in the office could hear) "Wait a minute why do you think that you dont have to follow the vehicle code? Why do you think that you dont have to follow the law?!!!"
That always brings the manager running. 

Tell me more about your situation.

[jagbuxx #12944]

You can log into the Calif DMV.org and there is a tool that allows you to determine fees owed. You'll need the plate number and last 4 of the vin. I wouldn't think that back fees would be due from r a car going out of state....

[m-mman]

Details are important.

1. Was the car you purchased CURRENTLY REGISTERED?  Likely not.

California never saw a tax (or fee) it didnt like. Years ago people would not pay their annual license/registration fees. No problem, if they got caught they would just pay the current fee.
California then implemented a very steep graduation of fees that increase for each year the car was not registered. 

Car not running? Cant insure it? (must be insured to be on the road and have the fees paid)  Dont feel like paying the fees?  Then you MUST 'tell the DMV' by paying a 'Non-operation' fee. (was originally $5 now it's $10? $15?) This fee is permanent UNTIL you re-register the car and 'put it back on the road'. Paying this fee BEFORE THE CURRENT FEES EXPIRE exempts ALL back fees and penalties.

Buying a car in California? MAKE SURE IT IS CURRENTLY LICENSED AND REGISTERED!!!
It is the BUYER who has to pay the back fees and penalties.
Craigslist is full of 10-20 year old cars being sold 'cheap' because someone did not pay the no-op fee and now the back fees exceed the value of the car.

There IS however a way to get around this back fee problem . . . . Cars over 25 years old are EXEMPT from paying back fees 

However few people know this and DMV staff will tell you this is not true.  (gotta know your loopholes) The law that mandated the excessive back fees ALSO provided an exemption. All cars that QUALIFY (key word) for Horseless Carriage or Historical Vehicle plates (doesn't have to have them just qualify) are exempt from all the back fees. All you have to pay are the current fees 

The definition for qualifying for historical plates is a car over 25 years old and "is of historical interest". To me any car over 25 years old is automatically 'of historical interest'. The DMV has no list or test to determine if any vehicle is historically interesting. If you say it is, then it is! 
But you might have to insist and argue with the DMV clerk. 

How many old cars of historical interest does a DMV clerk deal with on a daily basis? To apply this exemption you must read AND APPLY two different sections of the vehicle code to your situation. How many DMV clerks are going to do that?
Sometimes you might have to insist and argue with the DMV clerk.   
Bring your own vehicle code and insist that they read it.

Your problem (i suspect):
ALL cars on California's roads MUST BE CURRENTLY REGISTERED! Driving an unregistered car is a crime. If you are caught driving a car without current fees (stopped by the police) the car must be towed and impounded and not released UNTIL you pay all the back fees and make it legal.

If you bought a car in California THAT WAS NOT CURRENTLY REGISTERED. And you did not pay the fees to make it current, then you committed a crime by driving it to the California border.

FYI- you could have purchased a special moving permit that would have allowed you to legally operate the car and get it out of the state LEGALLY.

https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/brochures/fast_facts/ffvr36
Notice there are a lot of tricky details.

2. Did you get a full and complete California title? (pink slip) I assume that you did.
You were then using this CA title to title and register it is Arizona?
From what you describe Arizona is enforcing California law and insisted that you make the car CA legal before
they will issue you a AZ title.
This make no sense. (I dont know AZ law) and I dont think it is allowed for one state to enforce the laws of another.

Perhaps AZ saw that no fees had been paid and the car should not have been on the road in any state? (Operation and license fees are reciprocal between states) And therefore you were illegal operating the car in both CA and AZ.

There is always a loophole . . . . 
I dont know AZ law, BUT I suspect that if you had told the AZ DMV that you did not DRIVE the car from CA to AZ but had instead TRAILERED it, then no crime would have been committed and no fees would have been due. That is how it works in California 
What did you tell the AZ DMV?

[m-mman]

That is a great response, thank you!

1) Yes the plates were long expired

Could have insisted that the seller make the car current . . . 

2) I put it on a tow dolly, but never asked by DMV

FYI - A trailer and a tow dolly are NOT the same. California uses the "Do the wheels touch the street" test. Sometimes the DMV does not ASK they must be TOLD . . . 

4) AZ MVD insisted I resolve with CA. I pleaded this can't be right.

Pleaded?  In California I Insist and argue and conjole and raise a big fuss if necessary 
Always knowing the regulations as well OR BETTER than the DMV clerks. 

5) It was older than 25yrs.

Many states have different laws for older cars. You need to read the vehicle code carefully. And you cant trust the DMV clerk to know the information for you. 

6) the only loop hole was around my neck.
You were not aware of the system so you didnt know how to work your way out of it. 

I can see where this plagues many vehicles as it's just too easy to park a problem car with all intentions of fixing it...10 years pass. Nice revenue stream.
EVERYTHING in California is about revenue and income 


HOWEVER if you trailer it to MVD, OFF LOAD in parking lot and they deem it appropriate...you can get title only. It's easier to buy the plates.

Interesting. In CA a vehicle might have to be 'verified' but other than that you dont bring it to the DMV. They are too crowded and there is no room for it in the parking lot. 

[m-mman]

Since we are on the topic of DMV antics and some CA folks might read this:

In CA you MUST pay sales tax on every vehicle purchase.
If you buy from a dealer then the dealer will collect the tax.
If you buy from a private party then the tax will be collected at the DMV when you register the car. (called Use Tax) 

But how much???
The dealer will accurately report what you paid for the car.
The private owner SHOULD list the sales price on the Bill of Sale (which is turned in along with the pink slip) or written on the pink slip.

Not that anyone would ever lie . . . BUT . . . . the DMV is always on the lookout for people who have indicated a lower amount on the title/BoS than was actually traded between the two parties. 

So what is an old car worth?? The DMV cannot insist that you get a formal appraisal.  They are SUPPOSED to accept the figure listed on the paperwork. I have many times gone in with paperwork that listed the few thousand that I actually paid for the car. I have many times had the DMV clerk nonchalantly tell me that no "those cars are worth much more than that, I am going to charge you tax based on the tens of thousands of dollars that I know those cars are worth" and then attempt to tax me for more than I actually paid(!)

How do you dispute the amateur appraisal that was made by the DMV clerk who never actually saw the car? (remember the car I am attempting to register or title could be a show car or a parts car they dont know)

When I turn in paperwork for $2000 and the clerk tells me that "No those are worth $15,000" I slide the paperwork across the desk and shout "SOLD!" Its yours(!)

They always say "What?" and I explain that I paid $2k because that's what it was worth to me and if she thinks its worth $15k I consider that she has just made me an offer to sell and she has now just bought it for that price.     

If she refuses to pay I tell her that if she 'knows' that it is worth $15k I will right now take $10k for it and she can make herself a quick $5k. 

The more she tries to insist that she knows what it is worth the more I insist that she pay up.

I have even had the manager come over to find out what the fuss is and I asked him to make his clerk pay me what she has offered. He told me that the DMV does not buy cars and I told him that they then need to stop trying to appraise cars. I said I paid $2k and that is what it is worth and that is all I intend to pay tax on.

The argument has never failed me and my tax has always been based on what I said I paid. 

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

William,
Crabtree is right on !! My question is... how in the hell did your DMV KNOW what those back fees were in Kalifornia??? It sounds like they have a reciprocal  agreement!!! So people near the border don't just get an address in Az. & beat the state of Kalifornia out of $ due. Check into it.
Essentially... you got screwed!!
Bob

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Every State here in Australia has reciprocal agreements with each other.

Came about following a spate of re-birthing of vehicles when one State went by the VIN Number, and another, the Engine Number.

Yours might be doing the same, and in the process, checking if the vehicles are reported Stolen in one State, and that State not advising the rest of the Country.

To get a car into Australia, one has to have an Import Permit from the Australian Federal Department of Road Safety.   Without this, a vehicle can never get registered anywhere in Australia, no matter what.

I am pretty sure that Australia would be "talking to USA" if a vehicle was being imported from USA.

Amongst others, I imported a boat in 2008, and they were only concerned about the Trailer that was under it.

Bruce.

[55 cadi]

All the Dmv' s are linked, that's how they know what charges are due. They are different Dmv but they are linked by same system

[Scot Minesinger]

This is a Cadillac LaSalle forum, my friend just bought a 1968 Cadillac from CA and had it delivered to VA - all legit and there was none of this.  Let's shut it down.  There are other forums for DMV, Government and the like.

[Bob Hoffmann CLC#96]

All the Dmv' s are linked, that's how they know what charges are due. They are different Dmv but they are linked by same system

I do live in Ca. I have never heard of what you're saying. Can you provide some facts? Why would some distant state be concerned about back fees here?? None of their business!

[dochawk]

I finally titled my '72 a few months ago, after owning it ten years or so (there were issues about how it was signed).

I know it sat in a body shop and mechanic's garage for 5-7 years prior to that, so it was likely unregistered on a CA title for about 20 years.

While I had various issues, back fees from CA were not on the list.

Then again, NV law used to prohibit providing information about the registration of an NV vehicle to another state DMC unless that state sent an affidavit that it wasn't for photo-enforcement.   We're the last bastion of federalism--but unfortunately, we're failing fast to to excessive immigration from CA (we were able to assimilate 2,000/month here, but by the time it hit 7,000, we couldn't    )