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Rust repair under a vinyl top - how easy / how difficult? - Update (kind of)

Started by chrisntam, July 31, 2017, 08:30:23 PM

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chrisntam

'70 Fleetwood Broughams are sure looking nice to me these days.  As they had vinyl tops and generally there is rust at the back corners (and/or under it), how easy or how hard is the rust repair?

Is it dependent on the extent of the rust or rust through?  Does it generally get past the outer skin layer of the metal and into the trunk and through the trunk?

Is it fixable?  Or avoid at all costs?

Would a Fleetwood of that generation look good with a slick top?  Or would it look better with a nice padded vinyl top?

Just curious abput this issue.

And I need a bigger garage please.

;)
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

The Tassie Devil(le)

Me personally?   Avoid at all costs, unless you have fallen in love with the car.

By the time you see the rust starting to bubble up under the vinyl, it is ten times as big underneath.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Having fought this battle a few times it doesn't seem to be such a monster.  OI would suggest using a water test first of all to see how much water ends up in the trunk.  If it is minimal and the "cancer" is limited to the lower side of the rear window you are probably looking at $5-800, which in the overall scheme of things might not be that bad.
Greg Durfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

chrisntam

Here are some pics.  Is this problematic?
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

Mike Josephic CLC #3877

Looks like you have fairly severe rust damage there.  This will be an expensive
repair as most (if not all) of the vinyl top will have to be taken off to do a proper
job.  As Tassie said, there is much more rust there than you can see underneath
that vinyl.

Take it to a good body shop and get their thoughts and an estimate.
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Dan LeBlanc

Once you peel back the vinyl, I think you'll find the whole C pillar about to separate from the car.

That's the car listed at $13500 on eBay right?  While the interior is outstanding, it's a $4500 Car at best given the extent of the rust in these areas.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Cadillac Nut

That is not a particularly difficult area to fabricate,  most body shops can do it if you can't.  I would agree with the 500-800 estimate, plus cost of the vinyl top.   

chrisntam

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on August 02, 2017, 08:41:10 PM
Once you peel back the vinyl, I think you'll find the whole C pillar about to separate from the car.

That's the car listed at $13500 on eBay right?  While the interior is outstanding, it's a $4500 Car at best given the extent of the rust in these areas.

Correct, I was thinking about $5k  After all fixed up, it might be worth $15k?  It's "in my neighborhood", about 300 miles away (Dallas to Bentonville).  Was thinking about looking at it.  It'd be nice to have a Fleetwood, this one looks nicely optioned, so far as I can tell and it's the right color combo.

Given that he started at $15k, is now at $13.5k, it is unlikely he'd take $5k, but that's my opinion.

I have no room for it, don't have time to work on it, but want it (or one like it) none the less.  ::)
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: chrisntam on August 02, 2017, 07:28:13 PM
Here are some pics.  Is this problematic? 
In a word, YES.

But, bot unfixable, but I would hate to have to quote on it.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

cadillac ken

$500 to $800 to fix?  Never gonna happen.  As a professional restoration shop owner I can tell you that is not an easy repair. If the rust is near the rear glass channel removal of the rear glass is not going to be optional.  Also you will need a top notch metal fab restoration shop.  Not easy to find. Most shops will end up cutting up sheet metal and making the repair in numerous (and unnecessary) pieces cobbled together and then sculpting the details in plastic filler.

To do this right, you're looking at a lot of money. My guess-timate would be well into $2500 in labor alone.  As many have stated, rust is always worse than you can readily see. 

Replace the vinyl top or remove and paint it is not really the issue.  It's getting the repairs done correctly first that is the real problem. And finding a shop that will do it right so you aren't looking at the same problem in 3 years.

Rust is an issue with all these old Cadillacs we cherish.  We all just have to make a realistic decision when it comes to how badly do you want the car-- meaning how much you are willing to tolerate and pay in repair costs.  As hobbyists we all have more in our cars than they are really worth.  Even doing my own labor I'm in the same boat. 

Ken in Fl.

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Ken,
With all due respects, this is not an unusual repair for a good body shop.  The rear glass is removed, to old metal cut out and a new piece installed.  6-8 hours labor. Hadf it done on a few cars and here in Southern Texas, thats the cost.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

The Tassie Devil(le)

Don't forget that the back seat, rear part of the headlining and anything in the Trunk will have to be removed, as this sort of rust will have spread a lot further than what is showing.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

savemy67

Hello Chrisntam,

"I have no room for it, don't have time to work on it, but want it (or one like it) none the less.  ::)"

I think the difficulty or ease of repair is dependent on the extent of the damage.  Based on the photos, this repair looks as if it will be a little difficult.  Whether a replacement section is found (as Greg implies), or a patch is fabricated (as Ken implies), a fair amount of effort is involved in this repair.  Part of the vinyl is missing, and it looks like there is a significant rust-through hole.  On these body styles, that hole could mean there is also significant rust at the junction of the trunk floorpan and the inner wheel housing.  A thorough inspection would be advised if you were to make an offer.

I think these body styles look good with or without a vinyl top.  If you are thinking that this car's vinyl roof can be stripped off to create a "slicktop", then that adds to the expense of the repair since you need to have a perfect roof for paint.

Since the car is on eBay, my guess would be that the seller is waiting for the right fish.  You could buy the car for $5000, but I think you would be paying a few thousand too much, especially since you have no room or time for it.  If you like the car, wait until the last minute and bid $2100, and see what happens.  Good luck.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

cadillac ken

GREG:  with all due respect,  A "good" bodyshop would not estimate that job until they could get a better read on the extent of the rust-- unless they are accustomed to losing money.  Most bodyshops today won't even paint an old car since they can make plenty of money replacing fenders on Hondas.  I only respond because I think it is misleading to members to say that these repairs done right are both easy and cheap.

I would like to "follow" the repair of what is pictured for the single day (6-8 hours) to see just exactly how this is professionally repaired-- in a single day.  Removal of trim and glass, cut and remove rust, fabricate pieces, weld in, grind to finish, do filler work, prime and paint, reinstall glass and trim, and replace vinyl top--- in less than one day? 

Quite possible  you can be charged only 6 to 8 hours (how the shop could only charge this is beyond me) but I can assure you that's not how long it would take a qualified shop to actually do the work.  But good for anyone who can get a "quality" repair to that kind of rust damage for no more than a days worth of labor.

I don't want to throw shade at body shops.  But they are not restoration shops.  There is a difference and it's not just the pricing.  I've redone many jobs throughout the years that were done in body shops.  Understandably, many times the job was done to meet the customers' monetary expectations.  But some of the work was abysmal-- and is why it was brought to me to repair, again.

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Ken
My prices were "after the fact". True I have a good relationship with the body shop manager and he does cut me a break, but these repairs were done at one of the local Cadillac dealer body shops here in San Antonio.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

GBrown #8092

Permit me to weigh in on this. I have been through it twice.

In looking at the picture, this may not be as bad as it looks but agree that the top will need to come off to know. I certainly wouldn't spend that kind of money to find out.

My first experience was with a former Arizona snowbird 76 SDV, which had spent summers in North Dakota, and 4 years in IL.  The top was in tatters,  so I decided it needed to come off and be replaced.  I was able to find one cheap from someone on the forum who no longer needed it.  After stripping off the top, I discovered that Cadillac did not paint under the vinyl roofs which tends to encourage rust if any moisture gets under there. Tattered top equals moisture.  However, it wasn't bad. surface rust mostly, some scaling, but nothing an amatuer with a D/A and some rust converter couldn't handle.

My second experience was with my current 72 Fleetwood. The car was a  17800 mile barn find.    The seller had found it & cleaned it up.  I noted the bottom corners of the tan vinyl top near the rear window were stained brown.  The seller noted the trunk leaked, supported by the trunk liner having been trashed in his clean up. I checked carefully, with both of us noting it was a little soft in that area, but only that area. We both felt it would not a major job, a couple of square inches on each side of the back window should fix it.   The body shop I took it to, agreed no big deal.
WEEEEEELLLLL, it was. When the stripped on the top, a 2+ inch section of metal came off with the top, under the back window and several inches up both sides . They called me, told me to come get it and junk it.  (Maybe if I had heeded that advice, I wouldn't have "won" the hard luck award this year)  They discovered in addition to the unpainted roof, that the sides of the rear window had not been sealed from the factory exacerbating the situation.

What was expected to be a modest priced repair became a big deal. I was able to find an restoration shop who was able to effect the repair, and at a much higher price.  Vinyl tops are not easy to find, especially in some colors and patterns, though black should be easy to find. You should also expect that the top and installation are going to cost just under $2000.

Forewarned is for armed, shop carefully.

Glenn

chrisntam

That '70 Fleetwood had been off & on on eBay, I was gonna look at it next weekend, guy said he sold it.

He got $11,000.00.

That's (fairly decent) convertible money. 

I'm surprised.
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

Scot Minesinger

Those 1969-70 Fleetwoods look better with no vinyl top.  In the 1970 Cadillac brochure there is a picture of a medium blue one and it looks awesome. 

I agree with Ken, it will not be cheap to fix the rust.  It may be better to fix the rust and put the vinyl top back on, because then the metal work does not have to be as perfect if it was painted.  Plus I think that is a halo top and you will have holes in the roof to fill also.  My guess is you could reduce costs as Greg suggests by removing any risk from the body shop by removing the top yourself first in cooperation with a trusted and familiar body shop and getting to exactly what is required.  The car pictured looks pretty bad.  You are into a full repaint and will likely have to invest 10k minimum to make it up to my standards (I write that because then no one can really know what that is, but our standards are likely similar).

When I bought my 1970 SDV with 35k miles (it was at GN2017) I made sure the top was perfect with no bubbles before I would even look at it.  Even then to bring an original (mine had original radiator hoses, spark plugs and etc.) low mileage car to driving perfection, it requires some mechanical work too.

I would continue to look for a better one, the least costly will be the nicest you can afford.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

67_Eldo

I just pulled the top off of my 1967 Eldorado tonight. According to the prior owner, the top had been replaced in around 2010. But it obviously had not been replaced well.

There was very little external indication of rust, but there were a few tiny brown streaks beginning to peek out from beneath the vinyl.

With the top off, I can see only two small spots that have completely rusted through. There are a few more, larger spots where the metal is still solid but quite rusted. The rest of it is covered with old adhesive and black goo. Vast quantities of black goo filled the rear-window channel.

Also, the vast majority of the top looks as though it has been covered with a thin layer of Bondo (underneath the adhesive). We'll see how much rust is under that.

I'm repairing it myself so it will be lots of work but relatively inexpensive. If I took this to a body shop, there's no doubt in my mind that the tab would be closer to $10k than to $5k, even with me doing the prep work.

No matter what, when it comes time to mess with the rear window, I'm taking it to the best glass shop I can find because I do not want anything to happen to a vintage Eldorado rear window!

That's my $0.02.

cadillac ken

Scot said: "I would continue to look for a better one, the least costly will be the nicest you can afford."   Words of wisdom right there, and my rule.

A lot of guys I know seem to fall into the trap of "I can fix that" and "if I do it a little at a time I can afford it".  I get that, but really it usually doesn't work out cheaper than buying a decent car to begin with.  I always ask guys: "if you buy this car for X amount do you think you can fix it up to the standards of the nicer car you looked at without all the issues you are going to have to fix, and have less money in it in the end?"  The answer is not always no but most times it is.  Most severely underestimate the costs of the "fixer upper"--- even in materials alone.  Optimism is a wonderful thing and I certainly see a lot of it in our hobby-- not to be sarcastic, but to be sure reality is a hard knock sometimes.