Removing heads from 365, one head bolt stuck real bad

[J.J. Laakso]

Hi!

I'm removing heads from my '58 365. All head bolts were very easy to remove, except one. It's driver's side, outer edge bolt in the middle.

The engine is still in the car, and I would like to keep it that way since I'm only replacing head gaskets and machining the heads.

I've tried all possible rust penetrants, air impact gun and praying, with no luck.

What would you suggest I do next? I do have a 2 feet long wrench, but I really really don't want to break the bolt into the block... 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

If the head of the bolt strips, as in rounds off the sides, then you are in strife.

Firstly, I would be using a 6 sided socket, as in a heavy duty Impact type, then with a long breaker bar, undo it.

If it breaks, then it won't be so bad, as the cylinder head will still come off, and it will be a simple task to remove the broken remains in the normal way.

If the head strips, as in rounds off the sides, then you are in strife.

Bruce.

[Jerome506237DX]

Re-tighten the other bolts and start with the one which is stuck now. In this way, the force holding cylinder head and block together will be divided among the other bolts, instead of only one.
Good luck!

Jérôme

[wbdeford]

If a bolt head is stripped, I have found these helpful for getting a good grip on them.

http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-pc-damaged-bolt-nut-remover-set-low/p-00952166000P

[Caddy Wizard]

If the head bolt is in the middle top or middle bottom, it sounds like you can get access to the block and apply some heat to the block.  A little heat (not so much to turn the metal red or anything like that) will cause the metal containing the female thread in the block to expand ever so slightly, which will make the removal much easier.  Also, a few raps on the end of the bolt with a small hammer can break the threads loose from each other.  I would use a SMALL hammer, say no more than about 8 ounces.  Do those things and then use a 6-point socket with "flank drive" (ask the Snap-On tool guys about that) and a long breaker bar.  I have a 4-footer for stuff like this.  My irresistable force will overcome an immovable object every time...

[Dave Shepherd]

Art, good advice, this has worked for me in my shop.

[gary griffin]

I would try jacketing the stud with dry ice and heating the head, and then tapping the top of the stud with a hammer while you have good tension on the wrench.

[Caddy Wizard]

I would try jacketing the stud with dry ice and heating the head, and then tapping the top of the stud with a hammer while you have good tension on the wrench.

If you cool the block where the threads are located, the block will shrink slightly.  Meanwhile, if you heat the bolt, it will expand slightly.  Those two actions will make it harder to remove the bolt, not easier.  No, it is better to heat the block in the vicinity of the female threads...

[gene harl]

I  have a 3/4 inch impact gun ... if that don't get it,  I will go for the 1 inch , some thing is going to give..
     Gene Harl        CLC22406
   

[Glen]

First mix up a batch of ATF and acetone in 50-50 portions. Apply it to the bolt and let it soak in.  The longer you keep applying it and let it soak the better. 
Do not just strong arm the bolt.  That increases the probability it will break.  The use of a 6 point socket is good.  With a long breaker bar try to unscrew the bolt, not too much pressure, then reverse the pressure and tighten the bolt.  Continue with the back and forth.  At some point you will notice a tiny movement in the bolt.  Not much but just noticeable.  At that point you have it made, you just need to be patient.  Continue with the back and forth motion. You will notice the slight movement increases with each cycle.  You will soon get as much as a quarter turn, then a half turn.  As you continue you will get more movement.  Don’t turn it too far, if at anytime it binds a little back up and try it again.  You will get more than a turn before it binds, just back up and go again.  As long as you don’t get impatient and force it the bolt will come out in one piece. 
I have used this procedure many times.  It works well but needs lots of patience.   

[fishnjim]

That middle area is where the exhaust travels for the intake manifold and is subject to high heat, probably rust welded.   Also prone to cracking.  It was probably tightened while hot at some point to stop a leak and/or wedged in past the threads.  They can also hydraulically lock this way.  Depending on how badly rusted it is, there maybe no solution except snap it off and drill out and retap.  Timewise you have to cut your losses at some point.
Heat works if its not rust welded.   You end up doing more damage to the cast than good, if you get frustrated with the heat wrench when its not working.
Another thing to try if the bolt head is compromised/or not, is weld on a bigger nut.  Put on top centered and weld inside where the threads are to the bolt head.   The weld heating cycle helps to loosen and bigger head allows more torque and less slipping.   Also can use this technique if it snaps and there's a stub left to weld to.   
If it snaps, file it flat first, if you can, center punch, then drill carefully.   If you try to drill on the twisted off end, they don't drill straight.   The reverse drill bits sometimes take them out without the remover but probably won't touch if this tight.   Best to put in mill, but can't do on the car.   If remover doesn't work, then you have to drill out the same size hole as the tap hole size and use a tap or pick to get the threads out.   Then ask yourself why you didn't take it to the rebuild shop?

[Caddy Wizard]

Hi!

I do have a 2 feet long wrench, but I really really don't want to break the bolt into the block...

Head bolts are torqued to a high level, so even if the bolt weren't stuck, a 2-foot long breaker bar will require a substantial force to break the bolt loose.  YOU NEED A BIGGER LEVER.  My 1" drive, 4-foot long bar is just the tool for this sort of thing.  Really.  Use something like that, along with my other tips (gentle heat on the block and gentle raps on the bolt head) and I bet that you will get it out with no problem.

[J.J. Laakso]

Thank you all, many good tips!

I managed to break loose the bolt last night. I did use the Asetone+ATF method for several days and a finally the 2 feet long break bar worked instead of my impact gun.

Looking at the bolt, I guess the penetrant did little to no good at all. All 4 outer middle bolts were very rusty, all the other were in good condition.

I was lucky and the bolt didn't snap. If it hadn't come loose, I would have drilled the head off the bolt as it was already rounded in the corners. I managed to hammer a 17 mm socket on to the bolt and that stuck so well that rounded corners didn't matter.

Now I'm very lucky to see that both heads are good, no cracks or other visible defects. Next fight is removing the exhaust manifolds... BTW, a bit heavy to remove the head and the manifold together all by yourself 

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Great news that the breaker bar method worked.

Before you put it back together, make sure you tun a thread cleaning tap through the threads.

Bruce.

[Caddy Wizard]

Before you put it back together, make sure you run a thread cleaning tap through the threads.

Bruce.

Yes, a thread cleaning tap.  Not a thread cutting tap.  In other words, not a normal tap.

[Jay Friedman]

BTW, a bit heavy to remove the head and the manifold together all by yourself 

A word of caution.  A 1949 Serviceman's Letter for the similar 331 motor says to not tighten the bolts holding the intake manifold to either head until you have torqued all cylinder head bolts. 

[Caddy Wizard]

One more thing about removing the head with the manifold still attached:

As you know, these two items together are quite heavy.  Mechanics have been known to prop their elbows on the fender during some part of the lifting.  But this can lead to a dimpling in the top of the fender.  Many an old car has front fenders that are laser-straight along the sides and wavy along the top.  The top waviness is probably from elbows...

[Lexi]

Art you just described the condition of my buddies 1957 Caddy fenders. I never thought of that. Clay/Lexi

[J.J. Laakso]

Judging from what the engine bay looked like, I was 100% sure my engine was never opened. Just took a better look at the head bolts and now I know I was wrong.

Found at least 7 different looking bolts and at least 8 different lengths. Even the bolts that should really be the same length, they were not.

Seems that someone who worked on the engine used various random bolts not knowing what he was doing.

Can someone please tell me the correct lengths so I can order new ones from ARP. Or I can determine those myself if you know what the minimum and maximum thread engagement lengths should be.

[CadillacRob]

J.J., having just removed my 365 heads a couple months ago....from memory:

there are 3 rows of head bolts in each head.  The top row of (4?) are equal length to eachother and medium in length compared to all the head bolts.  The next row of 4 hold the rocker shaft down and are the longest.  The bottom row have the shortest length bolts.  Any bolt in this row that goes through the exhaust jacket are a little longer than the others in that row - which are the shortest of the bunch.  Hope that helps and makes sense.