We have bandied around before the "future of car collecting". Without going down that road again, I was thinking of how much different it is today, having a newer car repaired with all the technology involved in todays cars. There was a time when most gas station mechanics could repair anything from a Studebaker to a Cadillac. I think its safe to say that gas station mechanics are few and far between. With the tech involved with todays cars, many times only dealers are qualified to do repairs. What go me to thinking about this topic, was a friend that needed his new Lexus windshield replaced. No easy task, because of all the electronics involved in the windshield. Once the windshield is installed, they have to be calibrated for the sensors that are involved.
Eric,
I wouldn't worry about repairing "today's" cars once they age. They are designed and constructed of just about all recyclable materials so they can be recycled.
Greg Surfas
I'm sure everyone has a different "angle of experience" on this but will share mine briefly. First I like to think I can repair or replace anything on my 64 Coupe deVille, however, on the "other Cadillacs" (we have an all Cadillac garage) I simply don't have the time or inclination to dive into anything much deeper than replacing brakes, batteries, sensors, head & tail lamps, and the like on the newer cars. Backing up a bit, I grew up in a military/blue collar town (Fayetteville, NC) and later moved to Raleigh, NC to attend NC State (and still live in the area). Back then (30 years ago) we had local Fayetteville mechanics that could dial in your car in time for the Saturday dragstrip runs on their Sun Machine with their eyes closed and ears open; however, the "mechanics" at the "Service Stations" in and around the Government and more white collar Raleigh, could do little more than clean your windows, change your oil, or maybe plug a tire. With that left the dealerships (i.e. Raleigh's Sir Walter & Bobby Murray Chevrolet dealerships since I was a Chevy man back then), which then were often out of my budget, and often headed back toward the local boys and real mechanics from back home.
So fast forward to 2017. It is sort of the same situation but instead you have to find what I call "Hi Tech Good Ole Boys". There is one in particular just down the road and in the middle of nothing, that has a 3 bay building that looks like the old type service station but just doesn't have the gas pumps. The difference is instead of some Goober or Gomer Pyle type, you have a hi tech local yocal with his iPad pulling up all the schematics, recall and other data on any particular make or model with any particular problem faster than any dealership tech could ever dream of. I had my 2002 Escalade for a "Service Stability System" warning a few years back at the local Cadillac Dealership only to be told the ABS module would cost me $1700, would take a week or so to get it in, and they were unable to install it due to the position under the frame. My "Hi Tech Good Ole Boy" looked at it, pulled up the code, had complete grasp of what the issues were, cause of the code, and from sites he pulled up online and helped me find the ABS unit for about $850 and could install for a couple hundred bucks but might need to fabricate some new brake lines due to how it was angled. It was ordered on a Friday and had it that Monday!
So for me, it is a matter of getting out of the cities, and finding these real mechanics and that are not stuck in time and embrace new technology and have the smarts to actually figure something out on their own.
Similarly my 2008 GMC Acadia SLT (work truck) started throwing "service traction control/service stabilitrack" warnings/codes. Brought it to my local guy Scott (who's also on the #3 Alcohol funny car team and who will be The Ark's crew chief) he put some gizmo into the thingy under the dash and started pressing buttons on his smart phone. After about a minute he unplugged every thing, got his old Colgate toothbrush out of his socket drawer and a can of DeOxit. Removed some plugs from the ECM, started spraying and scrubbing, put the plugs back... hasn't happened since.
Ah, youth.... I knew his father before his father knew his mother.
My wife's Eqinox began a rough idle. Stopped at the Chevy-Cadillac garage, they hooked their monitor under the dash - in less than a minute they knew #3 spark plug was fouled. Fortunately, the young fellow (29) who is the mechanic grew up around a hot rod shop and owns a 1950 Hudson - so he is qualified to check out my '41 by ear if it's running rough.
Jim Miller
All sorts of theories about the repairability of "modern cars" have been out there for a while but cars overall have become more durable and longer lasting. The average age of cars on the road today is more than twice what it was in 1970, for example, when the scrappage/junk rate was notably higher.
Older cars (10 years old or older at a given time) are expected to continue to "thrive" and this will help feed the need and desire for related service, parts, etc. As the parts and technology that goes into cars changes, the technology to repair, replicate and replace parts for cars will change and improve too.
Modern cars present the good and the bad. They are overall MUCH more reliable, so - to go back to the original concept of this thread - you could buy a newer car with the goal of long term collector car ownership and that experience will last a lifetime.
Cars are meant to driven at least 150,000 miles and typically go to 250,000 without requiring an overhaul of the drivetrain. If a modern Cadillac is plucked out and treated with collector car mentality, you are unlikely to accumulate enough miles to worry about these issues.
I don't necessarily like modern GM so I have no idea what is available to buy new to collect or appreciate. I do like the last gen Eldorados and do get a little worried about reliability on those.
I am also a new Field Service Technician for a major scientific equipment seller. I am fairly new with little experience so the above comments regarding some non factory techs fixing modern issues is relevant to me.
If I go out to fix a Centrifuge for the next 2 years I may never have seen whatever issue it is before. When I walk in I may be the guy that's supposed to fix it with years of experience but I am not.
Similar with automobiles - some issues come up that are not common and maybe no one performed that repair before, not even the factory. These technicians are trained at community colleges, some are smarter than others, but generally a protocol has to be followed and sometimes there is no choice - especially considering the litigious world we live in.
Collect a modern car? Good topic with no clear answer.
I usually can't afford 'new' cars till they are about 10 years old. By that time aftermarket has usually come up with all sorts of special tools and repair kits that usually are not that expensive. There are often updated parts either from OE or aftermarket that eliminate a lot of issues too and many of the cars I buy already have the updates.
Just for clarification. My post wasn't in reference to "todays cars becoming tomorrows collectible". I think there is already a thread or two addressing this situation. These threads mentioned the cost, availability and knowledge to restore todays cars with all the technology involved in modern cars.
What motivated me to start this topic, was all the technology in my newest Cadillac. What have today is the combination of mechanical and electronics in todays cars. While they are able to work hand in hand. Sometimes todays mechanics might not be able to deal with both sides of the equation. You might have a tech expert, that hasn't a clue as to how to gap a spark plug.
I think we can all agree that the automobile, like TV has progressed to beyond some of our wildest dreams. TV started with 3 black and white stations on a 10" screen. Today we have HD screens, with sizes approaching 100" and almost infinite channel choices. It appears as though we are on the cutting edge of having self driving cars.
Quote from: TJ Hopland on December 22, 2017, 10:28:57 AM
I usually can't afford 'new' cars till they are about 10 years old. By that time aftermarket has usually come up with all sorts of special tools and repair kits that usually are not that expensive. There are often updated parts either from OE or aftermarket that eliminate a lot of issues too and many of the cars I buy already have the updates.
Might not be that easy to do in 2028. The technology in cars, as in other devices i.e. smartphones, is rapidly changing.
What I have found over the years is that what makes a good mechanic is the mechanic, not the technology.
There are sound basic skills required and acquired. Either the guy has them or he doesn't.
The state of technology doesn't matter, it's the state of the art of the technician.
My old school skills come in very handy on modern equipment and the new school skills come in handy working on older equipment.
I hate the term 'synergy', but it does exist and I haven't found a better term for it.
Quote from: wrench on December 22, 2017, 11:40:22 AM
What I have found over the years is that what makes a good mechanic is the mechanic, not the technology.
There are sound basic skills required and acquired. Either the guy has them or he doesn't.
The state of technology doesn't matter, it's the state of the art of the technician.
My old school skills come in very handy on modern equipment and the new school skills come in handy working on older equipment.
I hate the term 'synergy', but it does exist and I haven't found a better term for it.
Where I have to find fault with your thinking, is that today's "technology" requires a skill and knowledge, much different then the technology of cars in days gone past. How many computer "geeks" are adapt at even putting gas in their car, while a top mechanic can tear down an older engine and put it back together again.
Another example is my friend that had the windshield replaced in his Lexus. They had one serviceman install the window and used another to calibrate it. The window repair business had to hire new techs to just calibrate the windshield.
Quote from: e.mason on December 22, 2017, 10:34:47 AMMight not be that easy to do in 2028. The technology in cars, as in other devices i.e. smartphones, is rapidly changing.
Or it could become easier as the technologies to create, replicate, replace, repair, etc parts also may rapidly change and improve. No one can say for sure which is why these sorts of questions, debates, discussions about the long term reparability of "modern cars" of a given time have been around for so very long.
The essence of your questions, or doubts, posted in this topic really aren't much different than those expressed by some in the 1990s, 80s, 70s, 60s and before. The skills, parts, technology, etc may change through the decades but the gist of the discussions themselves largely remains the same generation after generation. Much like discussions about the future of so many other things.
How many of today's young mechanics would be scratching their heads at the sight of a carburetor?
Quote from: e.mason on December 22, 2017, 11:57:01 AM
Where I have to find fault with your thinking, is that today's "technology" requires a skill and knowledge, much different then the technology of cars in days gone past. How many computer "geeks" are adapt at even putting gas in their car, while a top mechanic can tear down an older engine and put it back together again.
The schools currently teach both. Also, I am one of those computer geeks in the IT field that can rebuild engines as I have done a number of times :)
Since my son is getting ready to start a 4 yr college degree in automotive tech in the fall, I am very familiar with the current offerings and most all graduating will be computer geeks too. Not only will they know how to rebuild engines, but transmissions, etc....too of course. Some even offer an auto restoration track. I predict it will be easier, with Youtube, videos, etc..., to restore. It already is getting easier with the ease of spreading info. Chuck
One of the biggest factors is price. The cost of parts and labor to fix cars has skyrocketed. Especially luxury cars like BMW, MB, Lexus, Land Rover, Jaguar, etc. Every time my wife's MB goes into the shop it is at least $300.00 but usually around $800.00 when all of the other things get fixed (Class "A" or "B" maintenance for instance always pushes the $800 mark). My 1997 Lincoln needed a new catalytic converter. Oops, you can't get one except for after-market (meaning Ebay). Luckily I had a real mechanic who was able to re-weld the bracket using a new converter and canister. It still came out to >$800.00. Most shops are charging $70+ per hour for repairs so even the "diagnostic" pushes you up to the $100.00 mark. I was being charged $200 each for 2 radiator hoses! (Yes I declined and did the job myself).
I think it will become harder and harder to keep these 15-20 year old cars on the road. Plastic parts give out, computer hard drives die and no one makes replacements in some cases anymore. I plan on trying! It will be expensive and hard to find mechanics that can do more than the normal repairs though.
The technology to build the cars is growing at the same pace as the tech to fix them. You need a plastic part that you can't buy in a store? No problem, in a few years the CLC website will have a part file section where you find the part you need listed and download the code to print one a / your 3d printer. Right now there are sites full of the codes to build your own tech related stuff. I just watched a video about building and printing your own mini vintage arcade game. It will just take some 'kid' to buy an old Cadillac that needs parts and get the ball rolling. Before long he will have designed parts you can download and sells a kit so you can use your old Iphone to replace the ECU in your 89 Alante.
Today you can buy a 3D printer that works for under $500. The quality isn't the greatest but to learn on or maybe make molds to cast I bet it would be great. It kinda looks like $3000 is where you start to get printers that could make a finished part.
Quote from: Chuck Swanson on December 22, 2017, 11:58:39 PM
The schools currently teach both. Also, I am one of those computer geeks in the IT field that can rebuild engines as I have done a number of times :)
Since my son is getting ready to start a 4 yr college degree in automotive tech in the fall, I am very familiar with the current offerings and most all graduating will be computer geeks too. Not only will they know how to rebuild engines, but transmissions, etc....too of course. Some even offer an auto restoration track. I predict it will be easier, with Youtube, videos, etc..., to restore. It already is getting easier with the ease of spreading info. Chuck
Everything you posted sounds encouraging. Hopefully there will enough of these graduates to go around.
Things are different yes, and it does in fact take more than your average gas station mechanic of yesteryear to repair a modern vehicle.
Good news is, people adapt and life goes on. Anything that has been built can be fixed, and will be if it's worth it.
:)
What about accessibility to repair these parts? Engine compartments have become so crammed, including everything inside the dash where it makes getting to a specific part almost impossible.
I always wonder how in the heck the guys that write the repair manuals on these new cars are able to get all the info they need so fast and accurately in order for techs to do the job correctly.
In the future with autonomous cars being more pronounced, and the tech being so expensive I don’t think it will be feasible to even bother to repair them.
Luckily for us our classic caddy’s are pretty straight forward and are easier to work on than anything made today. That alone relieves my headache just thinking about trying to fix a 2020 Cadillac whatever since I’ll still have my 64 to tinker around with. :D
Quote from: Chuck Swanson on December 22, 2017, 11:58:39 PM
The schools currently teach both. Also, I am one of those computer geeks in the IT field that can rebuild engines as I have done a number of times :)
Since my son is getting ready to start a 4 yr college degree in automotive tech in the fall, I am very familiar with the current offerings and most all graduating will be computer geeks too. Not only will they know how to rebuild engines, but transmissions, etc....too of course. Some even offer an auto restoration track. I predict it will be easier, with Youtube, videos, etc..., to restore. It already is getting easier with the ease of spreading info. Chuck
Chuck,
Who offers a 4 year degree in Automotive Technology? Bachelors program ? Accredited college?
Quote from: jaxops on December 23, 2017, 07:44:45 AM
One of the biggest factors is price. The cost of parts and labor to fix cars has skyrocketed. Especially luxury cars like BMW, MB, Lexus, Land Rover, Jaguar, etc. Every time my wife's MB goes into the shop it is at least $300.00 but usually around $800.00 when all of the other things get fixed (Class "A" or "B" maintenance for instance always pushes the $800 mark). My 1997 Lincoln needed a new catalytic converter. Oops, you can't get one except for after-market (meaning Ebay). Luckily I had a real mechanic who was able to re-weld the bracket using a new converter and canister. It still came out to >$800.00. Most shops are charging $70+ per hour for repairs so even the "diagnostic" pushes you up to the $100.00 mark. I was being charged $200 each for 2 radiator hoses! (Yes I declined and did the job myself).
I think it will become harder and harder to keep these 15-20 year old cars on the road. Plastic parts give out, computer hard drives die and no one makes replacements in some cases anymore. I plan on trying! It will be expensive and hard to find mechanics that can do more than the normal repairs though.
Remember the acronym BOAT:
Break
Out
Another
Thousand
It applies to new cars as well...
Quote from: TC on December 25, 2017, 09:32:47 PM
Chuck,
Who offers a 4 year degree in Automotive Technology? Bachelors program ? Accredited college?
There are a few in the Northeast, sometimes referred to as the 2+2 programs, 2 yrs auto tech, 2 yrs business mgmt.
He narrowed down to a few:
Bachelor of Business Administration (B.B.A.) Degree in Automotive Technology
http://www.morrisville.edu/programsofstudy/schoolofscienceandtech/automotivemanagementbba/
Bachelor of Technology (B.Tech.) Degree program in Automotive Technology
http://www.morrisville.edu/programsofstudy/schoolofscienceandtech/automotivetechnologybt/
Automotive Technology Management BS
https://www.pct.edu/academics/tnrt/automotive/bau
His goal is to own his own shop one day.
Chuck
Quote from: e.mason on December 22, 2017, 11:57:01 AM
Where I have to find fault with your thinking, is that today's "technology" requires a skill and knowledge, much different then the technology of cars in days gone past. How many computer "geeks" are adapt at even putting gas in their car, while a top mechanic can tear down an older engine and put it back together again.
Another example is my friend that had the windshield replaced in his Lexus. They had one serviceman install the window and used another to calibrate it. The window repair business had to hire new techs to just calibrate the windshield.
Technology vs Technician
I would like to point out that the lack of cross-training either by the company or the techs, does not illustrate a flaw in my thinking but actually bolsters my point. If anything, the question about 'division of labor' points to the fact that if technicians or companies want to 'specialize' then they do that to their own detriment.
What i am talking about is skills development and initiative. The company may have a business model that wants 1 chief and 10 underlings, the technology is not the problem, its the business model.
Same thing with the tech, if he just wants to be an underling and not a chief, that's his problem. Success will belong to the generalist in a specialized niche.
I find it funny that i even have to explain this as it is History of Technology 101 and also bolsters my point about technology vs technician.
Henry Ford was a race driver, the Wright Brothers were bicycle mechanics. Just about every innovator applies experience from another field as the nature of technological development is based on principles that already exist to create new applications. Technology doesn't evolve in a vacuum.
The mechanicals of the newer cars are superior and each model year the computer tech gets applied to better ways of making moving parts work less for more mileage and efficiency.
The costs as many have pointed out is in the repair of the electronics. Capacitors have a life span. They will fail as well as many other electronic components that heat up and then cool down. The problem is the "do it your self-er" is at a loss to diagnose these failures and the costs to take it in to have it repaired is going to be breathtaking-- even for the most minor repairs. To add to that many parts are not sold separately. Try buying a seat motor without being told you have to buy the entire power seat track assembly.
The OP mentions the windshield replacement on his friend's Lexus. Not something I would attempt to do even though I have replaced and set numerous windshields in my day. The tech involved now is what is getting so costly. The ability of the owner to opt to do the job himself is now in many cases out of the question-- which of course adds to the overall cost of owning the car.
The hedge against repairs used to be how much time a guy was willing to invest on a Saturday to repair his own car. Now it's a search for codes and how to do it on You-Tube, locating the "black box" and still facing an extraordinary price to buy it at the dealer and then install it himslef. You may be back on the road in a week.
Keeping in mind the posts that make the argument of how much car ownership can be going forward. What is the solution to keep car ownership costs reasonable? Leasing? When you lease for 3 years you are completely covered for all repairs. Basically all you have to do is put the gas in and change the oil. Many adequate cars, can be leased for cheaper then peoples cable, Internet, cell phone bill. Even many Cadillacs have attractive lease rates. When you lease you don't have a nice chunk of change wrapped up in a down payment.
Quote from: e.mason on December 27, 2017, 01:22:36 PM
Keeping in mind the posts that make the argument of how much car ownership can be going forward. What is the solution to keep car ownership costs reasonable? Leasing? When you lease for 3 years you are completely covered for all repairs. Basically all you have to do is put the gas in and change the oil. Many adequate cars, can be leased for cheaper then peoples cable, Internet, cell phone bill. Even many Cadillacs have attractive lease rates. When you lease you don't have a nice chunk of change wrapped up in a down payment.
And you never own the car. You'll still pay the full sales tax when you register and have to insure it for nuclear attack. If you put a slight scratch on it or go a mile over the stated mileage in the contract you're doomed with extra charges when you turn it in. Its like renting an apartment vs paying a mortgage. At least with the mortgage you own the property. Leasing is great for businesses/companies that can write them off. For individuals? In my humble opinion? Its just a way to drive a car you can't afford. Its a long term car rental. Again, just MHO. Laurie
I'm with Laurie on the leasing thing! My car is my car. I don't want a loaner car to rent. But again, my daily driver is a 2002 Cadillac Escalade EXT, and my backup is a 1964 Cadillac Coupe de Ville! I kinda get some aspects of leasing, but at 53 years old I am now too set in my ways and will always own a Cadillac and will never lease!
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on December 29, 2017, 03:30:32 AM
And you never own the car. You'll still pay the full sales tax when you register and have to insure it for nuclear attack. If you put a slight scratch on it or go a mile over the stated mileage in the contract you're doomed with extra charges when you turn it in. Its like renting an apartment vs paying a mortgage. At least with the mortgage you own the property. Leasing is great for businesses/companies that can write them off. For individuals? In my humble opinion? Its just a way to drive a car you can't afford. Its a long term car rental. Again, just MHO. Laurie
Lets look at the positives of leasing. No you don't ever own the car. So what? Ownership is way overrated. With ownership, after the warranty runs out, you are on the hook for the costs of repairs. With leasing, you are completely covered for the term of the lease. Yes the insurance requirements are high, but not that high for the cost. Yes there is an extra charge for going over the mileage, usually 12k a year. If you do substantially more, then leasing is not the way to go. In fact the ONLY reason an individual should lease, is if they want a new car every 2-3 years and do less then the allowed mileage. Another benefit, is not having the "equity" wrapped up in a down payment. You can take the equity and invest it. Have you seen the performance of the stock market lately? Yes for some its a way to drive a car they can't afford to buy. What is wrong with that? These are mostly lower income individuals, who spend more discretionary money on communication i.e. cell phones, Internet, video games etc. To them its just another monthly obligation. Do you really ever own your home? Think so? Try not paying your real estate taxes and see what happens. You will have a new friend at your doorstep. The local sheriff. No leasing is not for everyone. It is more cost effective to buy a car and run it until the wheels fall off. Those of us that want a new car every 2-3 years, with minimal payments, leasing is a God sent. One of the best features of leasing for me. Is minimizing the buying of the new car experience. No haggling over the value of a trade in. Just turn the car in and ride out in a new one.
Quote from: e.mason on December 29, 2017, 09:20:55 AM
Lets look at the positives of leasing. No you don't ever own the car. So what? Ownership is way overrated. With ownership, after the warranty runs out, you are on the hook for the costs of repairs. With leasing, you are completely covered for the term of the lease. Yes the insurance requirements are high, but not that high for the cost. Yes there is an extra charge for going over the mileage, usually 12k a year. If you do substantially more, then leasing is not the way to go. In fact the ONLY reason an individual should lease, is if they want a new car every 2-3 years and do less then the allowed mileage. Another benefit, is not having the "equity" wrapped up in a down payment. You can take the equity and invest it. Have you seen the performance of the stock market lately? Yes for some its a way to drive a car they can't afford to buy. What is wrong with that? These are mostly lower income individuals, who spend more discretionary money on communication i.e. cell phones, Internet, video games etc. To them its just another monthly obligation. Do you really ever own your home? Think so? Try not paying your real estate taxes and see what happens. You will have a new friend at your doorstep. The local sheriff. No leasing is not for everyone. It is more cost effective to buy a car and run it until the wheels fall off. Those of us that want a new car every 2-3 years, with minimal payments, leasing is a God sent. One of the best features of leasing for me. Is minimizing the buying of the new car experience. No haggling over the value of a trade in. Just turn the car in and ride out in a new one.
Gotta agree with most of your points here. Pride of ownership is not what it used to be. And with new cars being less and less separated from one another in terms of style, innovations, etc. ownership of a car that is basically just transportation, not sure that a lease doesn't have it's place. Especially if you drive a very calculated and unwavering number of miles (designated commute) and can be reasonably careful in taking care the car is well kept cosmetically -- something you probably would do anyway even if you "owned" it.
Business-wise you can still write off depreciation, maintenance, and interest on an "owned" vehicle so not sure it's right for all businesses to lease. And once the vehicle is "fully depreciated" from a tax standpoint, you still have a piece of capital you can sell or trade.
I think the it's more a matter of: do you look at your vehicle as just transportation, or do you want to have a connection to what you drive and therefore want to own it, maybe modify it a little and personalize it.
As with most things, leasing has its pros and cons and the desirability, practicality or whatever will depend on each individual's wants and needs. I think the biggest driver for leasing is still the ability to get more car (higher level and/or more options) for the monthly payment. While leasing has increased in popularity over time, it still only accounts for around 30% of new vehicle sales these days. Around 70% of new car consumers choose to buy Additionally, length of ownership has increased over the decades which I think is largely tied to improved reliability and durability of cars over time, as well as longer standard or available warranties.
In the used car market, which like new car sales has seen record numbers in recent years, practically no vehicles are leased.
My cars have always been way more than just transportation. They are an integral part of who I am. I think of a leased car like I would a rental car that I might drive for a few days while My Ride is in the shop, or I am out of town and just need basic transportation. I have always put a personal touch on any car I have bought by making a few upgrades and changes, and feel a responsibility to keep the car well maintained. I don't want any restrictions on what I can or cannot do with My Car. If I want to keep it for 10 or 20 years then sell it or pass it on to someone in the family or keep it until I am no longer, then so be it.
Finally, car ownership is indeed like renting or buying a house. You don't build equity and you are very limited in it's use. When I was in college, I rented an apartment and then a house and the landlord had final say on everything - can't have pets, can't change wall colors, can add or change appliances, fixtures, etc. Leasing a car is like having a car landlord and I ain't having a Car Landlord! LOL Yeah, I can go rent a house or car for less, but I like knowing I have the deed to my house and title to my car and I can do what I want with either. For me that is priceless!
While it is true that you don't gain equity in a car with leasing, the lower lease payment versus financing can build up funds in your bank account. For example, if your lease payment is $350/month for 36 months and your buy payment on same vehicle is $800/month for 36 months then you would have built up over $16,000 in "savings" ($800-$350 x 36) with the lease after three year terms for both.
Also, you can still treat the car as your own if you really want to by buying it at lease end at the pre-determined residual value and then keep it as long as you like, pass it along to family or whatever. However, if you end up not liking the car for whatever reason, want something new/different, or if the resale value unexpectedly tanks (e.g., the diesel Cadillacs of the 1970s-80s), you can instead turn it in and walk away. In the end, both leasing and buying can potentially result in indefinite long-term ownership if desired.
I like owning things and not having rules and regulations put onto whatever I am buying. At the same time, a vehicle purchase as expensive as they are, leasing helps someone that might not otherwise have a lot of money for a down payment or even the monthly payment if they bought it outright, to afford a new car with very low monthly payments.
I think buying makes sense on expensive purchases like a truck for work, or vehicle that will holds its value and you truly like, but economy cars and subcompacts aren’t worth the buy since they lose their value so fast.
Maintenance items these days pretty much consist of oil changes, air/cabin filter, tires and brakes in the majority of new vehicles. So it’s not like owning a an old caddy with a carb, points, and where everything is mechanical/ vacuum operated which is prone to wearing out faster, and a linkage suspension setup where greasing is required periodically. You have to be more keen on the maintenance on the old stuff than the new.
Point is, the maintenance cost is less on new cars, but what’s not so great is the cost of a repair. Newer car parts are very expensive and because the complexity of cars made now, you’re on the hook for those cost after the warranty expires.
After purchasing my slightly used 17 Impala, I plan on selling my 94 Fleetwood because i simply have too many cars now and the Fleetwood mostly sits.
I love the damn thing, and has been my daily driver for almost 9 years, but things change, and it feels pretty good having a new car to drive everyday without the worry in the back of my head that something could eventually break any moment of driving. Not that I didn’t have faith in the Fleetwood, because the car never left me stranded, but the little things that turn into major things like say the dash board circuit completely fails with the car having close to 200,000 miles on it,, where in the heck will I find a replacement for it, and how much is it going to cost to fix?
Plus the paint is fading, the seats are cracking no matter how much leather treatment I use, it’s going to cost more in the long run to slowly bring it back to where it once was when I first got it.
No new car I test drove is as comfortable, smooths out bad pavement or as relaxing as my Fleetwood, but that’s what my other classics are for, they still give me that same smooth ride, but in even better comfort and style, so if anything I’m not losing out. Just on the memories and great times I’ve had with it which will always be dear to my heart.
Quote from: Jason Edge on December 29, 2017, 01:41:05 PM
Leasing a car is like having a car landlord and I ain't having a Car Landlord! LOL Yeah, I can go rent a house or car for less, but I like knowing I have the deed to my house and title to my car and I can do what I want with either. For me that is priceless!
Bingo.
I'm sure excited to know my house will be paid off very soon. Houses are not cars, true. But having the freedom to add a room, enlarge the garage, etc, with the knowledge everything I do I
can do without landlord ramifications and these "modifications" also add to the resale value is where it's at for me.
Cars too. And to agree with you I also could never just drive a car that I had no attachment to-- just leasing a ride to and from. Not for me.
My cars are my 'babies', they have names, LOL! I'm so emotionally attached to my cars, they represent so much of my personal history. Then again I'm a chick... so....
Having a deed to a home, means you have the privilege of paying real estate taxes, doing the landscaping, get the repairs i.e. water heater, A/C etc., repaired. Those of us that chose to give up ownership of a house, only have the benefit of having more time to enjoy our prides and joys.
Quote from: e.mason on December 30, 2017, 06:52:08 PM
Having a deed to a home, means you have the privilege of paying real estate taxes, doing the landscaping, get the repairs i.e. water heater, A/C etc., repaired. Those of us that chose to give up ownership of a house, only have the benefit of having more time to enjoy our prides and joys.
True, but you still have to face rent increases, possible "friendly eviction" upon change of ownership, and despite my house does need maintenance, like Laurie said about her cars, my house is part of my history. Not to mention it's worth 3.5x what I paid for it. Definitely outdistances the ROI on any of my prized cars I own. And with it comes the security of knowing I don't ever have to worry about an unwanted change to my living arrangement due to a Landlord decision.
Same reasons I own my building for my business. Bought it 5 years ago and is now worth 2x what I paid for it. My friend who owns a high end foreign car repair shop rents his building which is coincidentally the same sq. footage as mine. Just got an exorbitant rent increase. But as he says what can he do. He has lifts, engine rooms, etc. and the cost to relocate (and have to deal with customer dissatisfaction of relocation and possible loss of business) is just not worth the move.
Now when I get old and decrepit, sure, I sell everything and just move into a condo. But not while I still have the drive to do what I do and enjoy controlling my own destiny, in as much as anyone can...
Quote from: cadillac ken on December 30, 2017, 07:27:37 PM
True, but you still have to face rent increases, possible "friendly eviction" upon change of ownership, and despite my house does need maintenance, like Laurie said about her cars, my house is part of my history. Not to mention it's worth 3.5x what I paid for it. Definitely outdistances the ROI on any of my prized cars I own. And with it comes the security of knowing I don't ever have to worry about an unwanted change to my living arrangement due to a Landlord decision.
Same reasons I own my building for my business. Bought it 5 years ago and is now worth 2x what I paid for it. My friend who owns a high end foreign car repair shop rents his building which is coincidentally the same sq. footage as mine. Just got an exorbitant rent increase. But as he says what can he do. He has lifts, engine rooms, etc. and the cost to relocate (and have to deal with customer dissatisfaction of relocation and possible loss of business) is just not worth the move.
Now when I get old and decrepit, sure, I sell everything and just move into a condo. But not while I still have the drive to do what I do and enjoy controlling my own destiny, in as much as anyone can...
Just like there are pros and cons to leasing. There are pros and cons to home ownership. I think we can all agree, that in making life's decisions. One size does not fit all. We all have to decide what works best for us.
At least with home ownership, one is not constrained by corporate body stuff which stops one working on their cars.
At the moment, I have just completed the installation of retractable rear seat belts in my '72 Eldo Convertible, rebuilding the fuel delivery system in my Son's 2002 VX SS Holden Ute, My other Sons' Toyota Bus, fitting a Bull Bar to it, and repairing the Auto Trans on my 2002 VX Holden Commodore SS Sedan.
It is nice having a half acre of land to spread out on.
Bruce. >:D
Ken when you get "old and decrepit" you just pay someone to do the mntx on the house! I lived in a condo for 22 years, high rise, 'nice' condo. Was on the Board 4 times. I'd live in a tent before I'd live in a condo again. Give me a house. Blessed my house is my dream house and paid for. If something starts to go amiss its pounced on instantly and fixed, its a military thang. Anything major, I'm a contractor, the labor is free and the parts are at cost, blessed. I have numerous clients that are widows and in houses 5 times larger than they need, but its "their home", where they raised the kids, etc. They won't leave. Its my responsibility to keep their home 100% and safe. Of course if/when I see my client a safety issue to themselves, and knowing they'd be safer with family or in assisted living, I rat them out to the kids and don't feel bad about it. If one of my 'seasoned citizens' ever fell or had a life threatening issue that went unnoticed and resulted in their injury or death, I'd never be able to live with myself.
What the heck this has to do with repairing today's cars is beyond me, LOL!
Laurie!
Quote from: e.mason on December 30, 2017, 06:52:08 PM
Having a deed to a home, means you have the privilege of paying real estate taxes, doing the landscaping, get the repairs i.e. water heater, A/C etc., repaired.
You're paying real estate taxes weather you own it or not, somehow through a fee or included in your rent. Landscaping hidden in your monthly maintenance fee/rent. How do you get around repairs without paying?
Quote from: e.mason on December 30, 2017, 06:52:08 PM
Those of us that chose to give up ownership of a house, only have the benefit of having more time to enjoy our prides and joys.
Lift the hood of your car in a condo parking lot and see how fast one of your "neighbors" drops a dime on you or reports you to the "board". If you're renting, most landlords have a clause in your lease that says "NO" working on vehicles in the driveway for insurance reasons.
I will own a house as long as I can. And when I can't keep up with it anymore, I would have to share a shop or work space with someone off premises. Most landlords, boards, (and generally angry people), do not want you working on your vehicles on their property or anywhere in sight.
I need my Freedom and will work 2 jobs if I have to to keep it. My only regret was not getting five acres instead of one! >:D
Bobby
Quote from: Bobby B on December 30, 2017, 11:56:30 PM
Lift the hood of your car in a condo parking lot and see how fast one of your "neighbors" drops a dime on you or reports you to the "board". If you're renting, most landlords have a clause in your lease that says "NO" working on vehicles in the driveway for insurance reasons.
BINGO! I've been the 'bad cop enforcer' for the miscreants working on vehicles in condo parking lots and rented properties, house and apartment.
Laurie
Quote from: Cape Cod Fleetwood on December 31, 2017, 12:01:57 AM
BINGO! I've been the 'bad cop enforcer' for the miscreants working on vehicles in condo parking lots and rented properties, house and apartment.
Laurie
Laur,
I couldn't live with myself being a hypocrite..... ::)
Bobby
Quote from: Bobby B on December 31, 2017, 12:03:53 AM
Laur,
I couldn't live with myself being a hypocrite..... ::)
Bobby
Hypocracy pays my bills, buys me nice cars and the money to fix them up.
>:D
Laurie!
One thing to keep in mind is no matter if you are talking about leasing a car or renting a house the owner is not losing money. As a landlord myself I know. Despite a $1000+ worth of plumbing repairs and an $800 refrigerator this year, I still made money on that unit. I heard through the grape vine the tenant was smiling saying he was glad to not have to pay those bills. He does not understand he did pay those bills and then some. Not all at once but over the whole year.
Paying a mortgage, you are building up equity. I could not buy the house I live in now, nor could I pay the rent on my rental unit. I could not live here on my retirement if I was renting.
Quote from: Glen on December 31, 2017, 01:31:01 AM
One thing to keep in mind is no matter if you are talking about leasing a car or renting a house the owner is not losing money. As a landlord myself I know. Despite a $1000+ worth of plumbing repairs and an $800 refrigerator this year, I still made money on that unit. I heard through the grape vine the tenant was smiling saying he was glad to not have to pay those bills. He does not understand he did pay those bills and then some. Not all at once but over the whole year.
Paying a mortgage, you are building up equity. I could not buy the house I live in now, nor could I pay the rent on my rental unit. I could not live here on my retirement if I was renting.
Glen,
Nicely said....
Bobby
Quote from: Bobby B on December 31, 2017, 01:33:31 AM
Glen,
Nicely said.... Bobby
X 2.
Bruce. >:D
PS. Never paid rent in my life, and paid cash for all my cars, except one, and, boy, did I learn from that one.
Quote from: Bobby B on December 30, 2017, 11:56:30 PM
You're paying real estate taxes weather you own it or not, somehow through a fee or included in your rent. Landscaping hidden in your monthly maintenance fee/rent. How do you get around repairs without paying?
Lift the hood of your car in a condo parking lot and see how fast one of your "neighbors" drops a dime on you or reports you to the "board". If you're renting, most landlords have a clause in your lease that says "NO" working on vehicles in the driveway for insurance reasons.
I will own a house as long as I can. And when I can't keep up with it anymore, I would have to share a shop or work space with someone off premises. Most landlords, boards, (and generally angry people), do not want you working on your vehicles on their property or anywhere in sight.
I need my Freedom and will work 2 jobs if I have to to keep it. My only regret was not getting five acres instead of one! >:D
Bobby
#Very true, that weather you own or rent. You have to pay real estate taxes and maintenance, either directly or indirectly. The major difference is that with renting. You know what it is going to cost you for a year. No surprises. You don't have to worry about your A/C breaking then having to spend thousands to have it replaced. All repairs to your dwelling, have to be taken care of by your landlord.
#Yes you do have to give up the right to do any work on your car. Not to forget that most times you won't have a garage to put your pride and joy in.
#Eventually we all will reach an age, where we neither have the time nor the inclination to devote as much time to our prides and joys as we have in the past.
Quote from: Glen on December 31, 2017, 01:31:01 AM
One thing to keep in mind is no matter if you are talking about leasing a car or renting a house the owner is not losing money. As a landlord myself I know. Despite a $1000+ worth of plumbing repairs and an $800 refrigerator this year, I still made money on that unit. I heard through the grape vine the tenant was smiling saying he was glad to not have to pay those bills. He does not understand he did pay those bills and then some. Not all at once but over the whole year.
Paying a mortgage, you are building up equity. I could not buy the house I live in now, nor could I pay the rent on my rental unit. I could not live here on my retirement if I was renting.
Build up equity? Tell that to someone that purchased a home around 2005-2007. They saw their equity fall by as much as 50% and still haven't seen their property rebound to what they paid for it.
A home is not an investment. Its where you live. Its not like buying a stock and wait for it to grow. A stock doesn't cost you anything as long as you hold onto it. On the other hand a house constantly costs you money, in upkeep and repairs.
Quote from: The Tassie Devil(le) on December 31, 2017, 04:01:20 AM
X 2.
Bruce. >:D
PS. Never paid rent in my life, and paid cash for all my cars, except one, and, boy, did I learn from that one.
Not like that in the USA. Buying on credit and living above our means is the American way.
Quote from: e.mason on January 01, 2018, 05:39:53 PM
Build up equity? Tell that to someone that purchased a home around 2005-2007. They saw their equity fall by as much as 50% and still haven't seen their property rebound to what they paid for it.
A home is not an investment. Its where you live. Its not like buying a stock and wait for it to grow. A stock doesn't cost you anything as long as you hold onto it. On the other hand a house constantly costs you money, in upkeep and repairs.
The thing about the 2000's, besides being caught up in the mortgage scams, I believe they bought something they couldn't afford. Those folks should have been renters, not owners.
I do know that in 1972 I paid upper 5 figures for a brand new 4 bedroom, 3 bath, two story house. 45 years went by and nearby comps are 4200% more than what I paid.
Maintenance on a brand new house is not much. And through the years there are maintenance expenses, But it is an investment. A long term one. But I guess that is why there is Chocolat and vanilla. I learned a long time ago, own your home and a couple of rentals and let your tenants buy them for you.
ciao,
Mario caimotto
How many homes have you owned?
Quote from: mario on January 01, 2018, 06:32:47 PM
The thing about the 2000's, besides being caught up in the mortgage scams, I believe they bought something they couldn't afford. Those folks should have been renters, not owners.
I do know that in 1972 I paid upper 5 figures for a brand new 4 bedroom, 3 bath, two story house. 45 years went by and nearby comps are 4200% more than what I paid.
Maintenance on a brand new house is not much. And through the years there are maintenance expenses, But it is an investment. A long term one. But I guess that is why there is Chocolat and vanilla. I learned a long time ago, own your home and a couple of rentals and let your tenants buy them for you.
ciao,
Mario caimotto
How many homes have you owned?
The thing about the 2000's is that EVERYONE was affected by the real estate bubble. It didn't matter if they were buying or paid cash They saw their home value go down in value significantly and most still aren't back to square one.
Yes owning rental properties can be profitable. Not for me though. When you are a landlord, your tenants problems become your problems. Rather stick with investing (stock market), where there are no repercussions.