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Custom cars ("Elegante") revisited

Started by "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364, February 05, 2015, 11:50:38 AM

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"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

I usually try and steer clear of highly charged "political" issues, but in this case I think I owe it to the Club to chime in here.  Of all groups the Modified chapter (via the Modified Forum) has verbalized what myself and perhaps many others thought.  Not to rehash the 2014 GN judging issue, but when a one-off custom is in the same class and judged against any stock (original, restored or other) Cadillac those who might otherwise be encouraged to participate in the competition with their cars are definitely "turned off".

When that same car is featured in the CLS official publication (rather than just written up as an interesting article which it would make) the entire spectrum shifts, and (I believe) many more potential (and current) members are receiving the wrong message.  The car itself is interesting and although it lacks the distinction of the many Factory "show cars" of the era it is equivalent to something Barris or Jefferies would have done at that time.

The fact that it was an intended commercial venture that failed only speaks to the fact that it did not carry the full Cadillac "weight" for customer acceptance although at (what would amount to) close to $800,000.00 in today's money that is not surprising. 

Again, I am not trying to re-hash anything, but expressing my concern over what I perceive others are saying and thinking about a change in direction of the club.
Respectfully
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Dan LeBlanc

I believe Bill Anderson had issued a statement about allowing the car to be judged last fall after the GN and it was posted on the forum.  Many members had expressed their concerns and the statement was issued in response.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

76eldo

Greg

I think that this car winning a first over my friends beautiful and correct 53 Eldorado was an unfortunate error in judgement. The car in question is a highly modified car with none of the work having any connection with the Cadillac division of GM.

It should have gotten a recognition award and if there isn't one, they should create a Special
Exhibition class.

Featuring it so prominently in the Self Starter is in a way giving the car a type of blessing as a "real" Cadillac.

It's unique, has a lot of interesting features, and was restored to a high standard but should be categorized as a period custom car.

Just my opinions or course...

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Brian,
Those are exactly my concerns.  In this era of diminishing participation I hate to see the CLC discouraging participants.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Dan LeBlanc

If everyone would take a minute to read Bill Anderson's report to the board at the winter board meeting, you will see the direction judging will go.

We're already competing against a build sheet.  In this type of judging, non competitive is best.  We will be moving that way.

http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/judgingreport.pdf

Modifieds will have their own category also if all goes according to plan.

This is a positive step in the right direction, folks.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

veesixteen

I agree with the majority of the comments made about this custom job thus far.  It is a "masterwork" so far as such jobs go ... but it is NOT a Cadillac in the strictest sense of the term; it is a private creation, albeit on a genuine Cadillac chassis and drive train; so far as I can see, it does not even carry a Cadillac crest, which should mean "end of story".  It certainly deserved  some inside pages in the Self-Starter, but definitely not the front cover. I would rather have seen on the cover page an equally fine photo of the Cadillac El Camino or La Espada, both genuine Cadillac "Dream Cars". 

I would place it in the same category as the stretched Eldorado Brougham in the attached photos:  a good job but not worthy of the Cadillac name or seal of approval. Also I don't believe the Birdsall design came before El Camino or La Espada. The latter were shown during the itinerant 1954 Motorama shows that premiered at the Waldorf Astoria in January, 1954. While (the) "Elegante" was built on a pre-owned (?) 1953 chassis and drive train, it was probably not built up by Rocco Motto before the 1954 GM cars, photos of which he would would have had access to since January 1954; remember, the  completed "Elegante" did not reach US shores until May, 1955.
Yann Saunders, CLC #12588
Compiler and former keeper of "The Cadillac Database"
aka "MrCadillac", aka "Veesixteen"

Dan LeBlanc

That's precicely why we will have a judge's training program and if a car meets the points required to win the award it gets it. Doesn't matter what the car parked next to it scores. If one scores a 90 and the other a 98, they both get a first under the new system.

You read the whole document, correct?  Otherwise you would have not made the statement you did.

My earlier comments referred to the NEW judging format presented. Not the current.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

76eldo

I did not read the entire document.

Let me first start off by saying that I respect the judging system and I like the idea of judging on a points system with fixed cut-off numbers, not numbers based on the actual cars participating.  Each car is judged on it's own merit.

Secondly, None of the cars I own would do a first place award at a CLC GN.  They are not clean enough underneath, and they are not completely perfect with respect to paint and chrome.  A car needs to be a fresh or extremely well preserved restoration to get a first, and the people that own such cars and clean and polish the cars from top to bottom and have spent either huge amounts of money or time or both fully deserve to get that recognition.

I have gotten 1st place awards at many of the regional shows sometimes a 2nd, a 3rd, sometimes nothing.  It does not diminish my enjoyment of spending the day at a Cadillac meet.

From what I have seen, and from my experience judging at local CLC meets and at a CLC GN, the judging is fair and is done by several members as a group.

Judging, winning, and trophies are important to most members, and it does give your car a pedigree of sorts.  Eliminating competitive judging would be a big turn off to most of the people who attend the GN's.  If you want to show your car in a non competitive way, just select display only as your preference.

The people that go the extra mile to make their cars perfect and take the time to do the research and make their cars correct deserve the recognition that these awards generate.

Judging on a point system will be a big plus and a great improvement.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

The Tassie Devil(le)

Quote from: Dan LeBlanc on February 05, 2015, 06:50:00 PM
If one scores a 90 and the other a 98, they both get a first under the new system. 
This is the only problem I have with any judging system.

The only time there should be double award presented is if two vehicles simply cannot be separated, even on a count-back..

If there is a tie for first place, then there should be no second place, but the next car reverts to the Third Place.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Past Cars of significance - to me
1935 Ford 3 Window Coupe
1936 Ford 5 Window Coupe
1937 Chevrolet Sports Coupe
1955 Chevrolet Convertible
1959 Ford Fairlane Ranch Wagon
1960 Cadillac CDV
1972 Cadillac Eldorado Coupe

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

With all due respects,
I was not specifically being critical of the 14 GN, because I am aware that was definately an abberation that will probably not re-occur.  My lack of understanding is that why, after all the controversy at the GN, was that very same Cadillac "want-to be" featured in our publication as if "it" (the custom) is what the club is all about?
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

76eldo

It did get off track.

I'm with you. That's not a car that should be featured like that on the cover of our national publication.  Worthy of an article and a few pics as a curiosity but not a cover car.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

savemy67

All,

Though related, I see two distinct issues in this thread.  Greg's post about the direction of the club (based on the cover of the recent Self-Starter) raises a valid concern.  Perhaps the board of the club will consider guidelines for cover articles.  Since joining, I have read all the on-line back issues.  I realize there are many more back issue to read, but has a hearse or an ambulance ever graced the cover of the Self-Starter?

The other issue seems to be about judging.  I read Bill Anderson's report in its entirety, and I agree with Dan that the recommendations are a good step in the right direction.  Rome wasn't built in a day, so it is unrealistic to expect a small volunteer committee to present a full-blown, perfect set of recommendations that will please every member.  If there is something in the report with which you disagree, or that you think might be improved, contact Bill, and in an articulate manner lay out your case.

Good people will disagree.  From what I can see, there are a lot of good people on this forum and in this club.  Consider contributing your well thought-out ideas.

Respectfully,

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

35-709

For those of you who would like to read my thoughts on this subject, fueled by the February Self Starter, you may do so at the Modified Chapter forums here ---

http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/forum/index.php/topic,8576.0.html

It would not be permitted to stay posted here.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

57eldoking

#13
I followed the discussion after the GN and again now. Like many others I find it very difficult to understand how it could win an original class at a GN and now be the main feature of the Self Starter. I wonder what would have happened if the car below was to turn up at a GN? The car is a full scale replica of "Il Tempo Gigante" from the 1975 Norwegian stop motion-animated movie Pinchcliffe Grand Prix. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Il_tempo_gigante It is arguably the most famous car in Norway and instantly recognizable to any Norwegian. Following the movie's release and blockbuster success (in Norway) in 1976 the producer had a full scale replica of the car commissioned. The body was built from the ground up by an Italian coach builder and placed on a 1966 Cadillac Series 75 chassis. I doubt we would ever see "Il Tempo Gigante" on the cover of the Self Starter or win an original class at a GN. To me however "Il Tempo Gigante" is just as much (or little) of a Cadillac as the Elegante!



1957 Eldorado Biarritz #906
1957 Eldorado Biarritz #1020 http://bit.ly/1kTvFlM
1957 Eldorado Seville  #1777 http://bit.ly/1T3Uo1c
1995 Fleetwood Brougham  http://bit.ly/20YwJV4
2010 SRX Performance

1946 Chevy 1/2 ton pickup
1957 Buick Caballero Estate Wagon (x2)
1960 Chevy Apache 10 Stepside
1991 Jeep Grand Wagoneer (x2)
1992 Pontiac Trans Sport GT

35-709

"I doubt we would ever see "Il Tempo Gigante" on the cover of the Self Starter or win an original class at a GN. To me however "Il Tempo Gigante" is just as much (or little) of a Cadillac as the Elegante!"

NOW you've done it!
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

David King (kz78hy)

I was surprised to see that car on the cover this month and agree it has no place there.

Our editors are entitled to make a mistake every so often and they put out a fine product. 

If a magazine could have a recall, this issue might be the one to get it.

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Jeff Wilk

Dan, thanks for posting the link to Bill's Report to the CLC along with the New Judging Policies starting in 2015.  I had not seen it.

I am NOT typically one to bring up old matters but this thread initially reopened wounds from the 2014 GN which my Son and I had put behind us and for which we never formally inquired about.  Now, not to be dramatic, these "wounds" were more like paper cuts in comparison to the bloodied knuckles and synged hair we earned as our only Trophy for the work we did over 3 years on our '59 Cadillac to bring this original car back to life and on the road as a driver. 

Some may remember the shock Noah and I felt when we were disqualified at the GN in the Touring Class because the engine compartment was fully restored along with with front suspension.  Other than that and a repainted roof the car was as delivered from Cadillac.....right down to it's cracking paint on the doors, the splitting apart leather seats under plastic slip covers, some pitted chrome and years and years of desert sand all over the undercarriage.  Plenty of advice strongly steered us to the Touring Class despite the engine compartment work as it was not restored as Primary Class car.  As an example, we drove the car the 5 hours to the GN in the rain there and back and left it outside the whole time.....no trailer queen here (NOT THAT WE HAVE ANYTHING AGAINST THOSE)...but ours is a driving car....Touring Class for sure.......my Son got real discouraged by the whole thing.....but thankfully not in the car itself nor the personal pride he still takes as we drive it down the shore or to local shows where this type of "thing" is not a factor. Again, not bitter about it, just disappointed in that process.

Again, I APPLAUD  ;DBILL ANDERSON and ALL who spent time reviewing and reworking the Judging system as it seems to be right on track to address these various degrees of restoration fairly........even though our "Reveal" will never happen again, I hope that it brings back a more amicable series of results to all who participate regardless of how much money they can pour into their cars, and reward all of those who are actually taking the time to preserve the Cadillac history to whatever degree.  To me, the preservation of the Marque is what it is all about.

Jeff

"Impossible Only Describes The Degree Of Difficulty" 

Southern New Jersey

1959 Cadillac Fleetwood Sixty Special
1975 Eldorado Convertible (#12 made)
1933 Phaeton Chevrolet - "Baby Cadillac"
1933 Master Sedan Chevrolet - "Baby Cadillac"

SOLD
1976 Cadillac Mirage (factory authorized Pick-Up)
1958 Cadillac Sixty-Special
1958 Cadillac Sixty-Special
1958 Cadillac Sedan
1958 Cadillac Coupe Deville

TonyZappone #2624

I quickly read the ideas for the new judging mode.  The notion of the highest and lowest judges scores being discarded, probably came from Carl Steig and the CCCA.  Moreover, the idea of two equally scoring cars earning equal trophies, is not unreasonable, equal is equal.  This too is a practice of the CCCA.  They should both earn equal recognition.  My '47 Cadillac convertible when it earned its first junior, had one judge judging it 7 points lower than the next higher score!.  Should I have suffered the loss that would have occurred if that score had not been discarded?  Things to think about. 
Tony Zappone, #2624
1936 Pierce-Arrow conv sed
1947 Cadillac Conv cpe
1958 Cadillac conv
2016 Cadillac CT6 Platinum
2022 Chrysler Pacifica Pinnacle

James Gaffney

I recently joined this forum and club for the expertise of the members. I always wanted factory and I never wanted after market anything on my cars or motorcycles. I wanted the rarest and most complete options. My attitude changed somewhat after experiencing the 4100 series engines and then when I bought my Fleetwoods in the 90's. I felt like Cadillac set the pace until they kept the old body style and Chevrolet, Oldsmobile and Buick got the new series bodies. Then the 93 with Oldsmobile engine and then 94-96 with the Chevrolet engine. Did anyone else feel the same?

I realize that if you look at my list of Cadillacs, none of them are factory. Yes, the 94 Fleetwood, but is it really all Cadillac? My 81 Fleetwood has only 5,600 miles, however it came with the diesel originally and now it has a big block which someone else put in. Too clean, too cheap. The el Deoras and the Mirage 2 are not factory. I still want all the original paperwork from day one.  However for me to buy a 16 or a 12, I want it right. I like rules for it to be right. How else would I be able to learn? Ask the old guy, the one that knows.

Now my last question, is Modified Cadillac is connected, and or a member with Cadillac LaSalle club. Separate, but with some same members?
1994 Fleetwood
1985 Fleetwood 75
1981 Seville Opera Coupe
1981 Fleetwood Coupe
1981 Fleetwood 75
1978 Eldorado El Deora
1978 Eldorado Franciscan
1976 Eldorado Mirage
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1976 Fleetwood Castilian
1973 Eldorado  El Deora

35-709

#19
It is the "Modified Chapter of the Cadillac & LaSalle Club", which should answer the first part of your question.  To be a member of the modified Chapter you must be a member of the Cadillac & LaSalle Club.  There are quite a few of us here that belong to both.  There are many more (the majority I would say) that are registered at the Modified Chapter but are not members.

The link to the main page of the Modified Chapter is here ---
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/

You can read more about the Modified Chapter here ---

http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/about.htm

You can find the Modified Chapter President's contact info here ---
http://www.modifiedcadillac.org/contact.htm

As with this forum, you do not have to be a member to post your questions or helpful comments/suggestions at the Modified Chapter, but you do have to register.

Happy to have you join us.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2