Author Topic: Darkest before the dawn.  (Read 1066 times)

Offline e.mason

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  • Name: Eric Mason
Darkest before the dawn.
« on: January 01, 2018, 04:47:39 PM »
Sounds like Cadillac still hasn't found the way to get the train back on the track.  They came to the table late with SUV's, and still don't produce cars that the public wants.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20171205/RETAIL/171209879/-cadillac-gives-dealers-reprieve-after-many-miss-pinnacle-sales-goals?cciid=email-autonews-blast

Offline James Landi

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2018, 05:04:20 PM »
Will certainly understand if my comment is expunged-- here's my reaction: His logic escapes me.   Perhaps a less problem prone car that is well supported by the company are the answers.  Holding the average price higher and selling fewer cars, and off loading design issues to be absorbed by the dealers sounds like a toxic mix to my untrained ear.   I am reading about failed direct injection engines and other not so minor problems that dealers are having to fix..      Happy day,  James

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2018, 07:31:44 PM »
The biggest problem is that all cars will one day become a product of market demand.

And when that happens, it could possibly be that the Cadillac & LaSalle Club, this, our club, will still flourish, as people will want to get back to enjoying transportation with class.

We cannot complain about new cars, and the way they are built, as the Club, actually doesn't recognise Cadillacs until they are Ten Years Old.   Yes, some complain about new cars, but these people have an agenda which involves being able to buy a nicer Cadillac once it is at least Ten Years Old.

Down here in Australia, Vintage cars aren't recognised until they are at least 30 years old.   Newer cars are called "Special Interest".

The way for the car makers to steady things down is to only make vehicles when they get actual Signed Orders in to make them, and people should be prepared to wait for their car to be built.   Remember the "good old days".

No good comes of forcing targets for sellers to reach, and having huge areas filled with unliked vehicles, that eventually will get crushed.   What a waste of resources.

And oh, yes, it is always the darkest before the dawn.

Bruce. >:D 
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline e.mason

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  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2018, 08:58:56 PM »
The biggest problem is that all cars will one day become a product of market demand.




Bruce. >:D

One day become?  I believe its been that way for many decades.  Meeting market demand, has been Cadillacs downfall.  They simply don't make cars that appeal to many people, as they did in the past.  Cadillac used to be the pinnacle of luxury cars.  We all looked to Cadillac to define luxury.  Used to be, all the other makes played catch up to Cadillac.  The tables have been turned, and now Cadillac is playing catch up.

Offline Cape Cod Fleetwood

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  • Name: Laurie Kraynick
Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2018, 12:24:23 AM »
Note to Cadillac: try making a product people want and see what happens.
MB, BMW, Lexus *OWN* the luxury sport sedan market, trying to compete with that is futile. Stop naming cars after rockets, loose the letters and numbers, its confusing and so phony 'european'. Go back to the future. Have actual 'car people' design the cars, especially the engines and drive trains, instead of kids who can't change a tire but are wizards driving computers. "Name" the cars, everyone can recognize the name El Dorado, Seville, Fleetwood, etc. XT5, JH4, RT7, c'mon will ya? Work for NASA. And the catastrophic failures of those 100K 'slade tranny's is inexcusable in this day and age. Go back to how Cadillac did business and designed/engineered the cars in the 60's and 70's. Who did they hire, how did they test, which advertising worked best... the answers for the future are there. After a 10 year depression the American economy is BOOMING again and will be for the next 8 years at a minimum. Build those boats again, people can afford a few extra bucks for fuel now, many have never experienced owning/driving a car that weighs more than 3K pounds. Stress the inherit safety of larger, heavier cars, and the pure, actual luxury a rolling living room can provide. Then you're back in business. JMHO
Laurie
There are 2 kinds of cars in the world, Cadillac and everything else....

The Present -1970 Fleetwood Brougham

The Past -
1996 Deville Concours
1987 Sedan De Ville "Commonwealth Edition"
1981 Coupe De Ville (8-6-4)
1976 Sedan De Ville
1975 Sedan De Ville

The Daily Driver and work slave -
2008 GMC Acadia SLT *options/all

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2018, 04:32:52 AM »
Won't happen until all the Federally mandated safety and anti-pollution stuff is removed from the design criteria.
This stuff is why everything now looks the same.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2018, 07:48:29 AM »
I don't think Cadillac's issue is with the model names as practically all luxury cars have alphanumeric model names.  I also don't think the issue is with the designs as all automakers have to deal with various "regulations" and besides, as has been discussed on here in other topics, people have been complaining about cars looking too much alike for ages and ages.

Brands like Audi, BMW, Mercedes, etc have been doing quite well here with their alphanumeric names and meeting regulation requirements.  The biggest issue for Cadillac is that the types of cars, large sedans and coupes, that once dominated the luxury landscape here are no longer selling as they used to.  This fact has hurt Lincoln too.  When or if large cars make a comeback, Cadillac and Lincoln will be in a better position again but until then the focus needs to be more on crossovers and SUVs which are the hot items right now and why Cadillac will be adding the XT4 and XT6 in the coming years.

Despite what I assume will be a down year here in the U.S., Cadillac is doing very well overall (globally) and should end up with a record year for 2017.

Offline smokuspollutus

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  • Name: A. Molinaro
Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2018, 09:00:34 AM »
American car companies have historically made very poor copies of foreign models. It seems that if nothing else, they're consistent.
1984 Eldorado Biarritz Coupe

Offline e.mason

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  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2018, 09:13:30 AM »
All exceptionally interesting replies.  Everyone seems to agree that Cadillac has gone off track in being the leader in luxury cars.

#Why did the feel the need to drop naming, instead of designating their models?  Is it too obvious that they were trying to achieve the same status as the German imports?  Interesting how they eased into it.  The DTS was the Deville, STS was the Seville and and the ETC was the Eldorado.  Still was somewhat easy to know where the models fell into the pecking order.  I think they should have maintained names as they did with the other 3 divisions.

#While it is true, that cars basically all look the same, because of Federal Regulations.  It is my contention that today's car buyers aren't all that interested in looks as most of us were in the past.  I think most want amenities, safety and reliability.  Just looks at the success of the Soul. It looks like a box on wheels.

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2018, 10:52:25 AM »
I think they should have maintained names as they did with the other 3 divisions.

The other three GM divisions predominantly sell in markets where so-called real model names are more the norm even among imports.  Cadillac, however, for GM competes in the luxury market where alphanumeric model names are the norm.  To me, if Cadillac were to go back to real model names it would almost be like admitting that they can't compete in that luxury segment so they're using real names like Buick, Chevy, Dodge, Ford, Honda, Hyundai, Nissan, Subaru, Toyota, Volkswagen, etc do because that's closer to the level where they belong.

Like most on this forum, I grew up with Cadillac having real model names and prefer them for nostalgic reasons.  I just don't know if it would be the wisest things for Cadillac to use for their vehicles right now.

At least the new model names will clearly identify cars (CT) versus crossovers (XT) and the corresponding numbers will clearly identify position in the lineup.

Offline 49er

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2018, 10:54:48 AM »
Much has been said on the subject. To me its simple. You lead, get in line or get out of the way. Ultimately,  I think thr got in line and in my view, its the worst place to be.
Art Archambeault 22010.                                                           38 LaSalle, 5019
49 Series 62
62 Fltw, 60 Special
63 Eldorado  Biarritz Conv
01 Deville

Offline e.mason

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  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2018, 11:26:52 AM »

At least the new model names will clearly identify cars (CT) versus crossovers (XT) and the corresponding numbers will clearly identify position in the lineup.

Where do the AT's fit in?  Interesting that one of their highest priced models, the Escalade, uses a name for its nomenclature.

Offline BJM

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2018, 01:04:55 PM »
I am not a buyer of the modern GM. Sorry, that boat has sailed.  The GM culture is systemic and I am not sure what kind of leader can turn it around. 

I thought they had 2-3 crossovers already, Chevy platform SUV's?  I see an ad for hand stitched this and that and I have seen the squared off crossovers over the years. 

Anyway, I think the number of platforms are fine. You don't need more than 3 "car" platforms. Mercedes uses essentially 3 then swings out from them. C Class, E Class and S Class.  Obviously a lot of you guys know this already. 

Just make 3 wheelbase sizes, offer AWD in all 3 sizes, spin off a couple of roadsters or 2 door sports oriented models and go techno - hybrids with great gas mileage and even all electric (it's coming)

For me, I would love to see a new Eldorado. This would be built on the "mid" platform, not the S Class platform but have S Class levels of luxury, sport and technology. 

No one knows what numbers and letters mean.  It's not like Cadillac has a 75 year history of the alpha-numerical manner of car naming like the Germans and Lexus. 

When the F150 gets paid off in 3 1/2 years, I am getting a 2 door coupe - a Mustang GT, Lexus offering, maybe even a Jaguar or Alfa.  I am frankly afraid to buy a Cadillac but I'll go look.
Bryan J Moran
CLC # 12994
Des Moines, Iowa
1968 Cadillac Eldorado

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2018, 04:38:11 PM »
Just looks at the success of the Soul. It looks like a box on wheels.   
Hang on, once we start talking about "Sou"l, and a "box on wheels", I hope we aren't referring to a Coffin and its' contents, where the Soul has flown the Coupe?

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline 59-in-pieces

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #14 on: January 02, 2018, 05:48:23 PM »
Art,
You have the right idea.
The fact that what you said is short, to the points, and it's easy to understand - by most, says it all.

All the corporate chatter is rhetoric and is nothing more than whisking in the dark and hoping against the facts that things will get better.
Pointing to the global success is nothing more than looking beyond the US (in which they are failing) to other markets, where - sarcastically perhaps - not long ago were driving a Yugo - or their ilk.

The old saw of alpha-numeric naming is bunk - that is unimaginative thinking of those who mimic the corporate line - and who are trapped "in line" - not leading, but will shortly be forced out and left behind.

There is nothing emotive about numbers and letters, but Eldorado, Brougham, De Ville, Fleetwood, Seville, Biarritz, Ciel, Elmiraj, Converj, Eco-jet, these names that bring forth feelings of what the names represent to the reader, and how each visualizes the named car, and how they relate to them.
The only number letter combination that strikes an emotional note to all, is the V-16.
No apologizes hidden within "IMHO".

Have fun,
Steve B.
S. Butcher

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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  • Name: R. Langley
Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #15 on: January 02, 2018, 05:55:27 PM »
Where do the AT's fit in?  Interesting that one of their highest priced models, the Escalade, uses a name for its nomenclature.

They don't.  The ATS, CTS and XTS names will all be going away.  Under the new naming, CT and then a number (CT6, CT5, etc) will be for cars and XT and then a number (XT6, XT5, etc) will be for crossovers.

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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  • Name: R. Langley
Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2018, 06:02:21 PM »
I thought they had 2-3 crossovers already, Chevy platform SUV's?  I see an ad for hand stitched this and that and I have seen the squared off crossovers over the years.
Cadillac currently has one crossover (XT5) and the Escalade SUVs.


Anyway, I think the number of platforms are fine. You don't need more than 3 "car" platforms. Mercedes uses essentially 3 then swings out from them. C Class, E Class and S Class.  Obviously a lot of you guys know this already. 
I'm not sure exactly how many specific platforms Mercedes uses in the states as some differing models uses variations of platforms but their model lines include CLA,  C,  E,  CLS,  S,  SLC,  SL  and  GT classes on the car side and GLA,  GLC,  GLE,  GLS  and  G classes on the crossover/SUV side.


No one knows what numbers and letters mean.  It's not like Cadillac has a 75 year history of the alpha-numerical manner of car naming like the Germans and Lexus. 
Whether alphanumeric or real names, anything new would be unfamiliar initially.  Alphanumeric model names dominate the luxury segment and that is where Cadillac wants to compete.

Offline e.mason

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  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2018, 08:05:26 PM »
I think we are in a completely new era for what consumers want from their automobiles.  In the beginning people were satisfied to have a vehicle that offered more distance and speed their horse and wagon.  As cars developed, style came into play.  Next creature comforts i.e. radio and heater.  Along the way there were always the luxury offerings, such as Cadillac, Lincoln, Packard etc.  Until Federal regulations came along and put restrictions on the manufacturers, styling was a big part of the appeal of cars.  Move the clock ahead to the present day, cars are all about technology.  Styling has taken a back seat to all the technology offered in todays cars.  I personally enjoy the backup camera, the paring of my cell phone to my car, all the safety features offered.  I just read that the new Cadillacs have a sensor/camera built into the steering wheel, that will detect when the driver takes his/her eyes off the road.

Offline Alan Harris CLC#1513

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2018, 08:47:18 PM »
I don't know how many people have seen this, but it has been reported that Lincoln is planning to drop the numbers and letters and return to names for its models. Continental is the first of the names to go into place, but others are supposedly going to follow.

Offline e.mason

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  • Name: Eric Mason

 

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