Author Topic: Darkest before the dawn.  (Read 1063 times)

Online cadillacmike68

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2018, 04:55:51 AM »
And another thing.... (c'mon, you've all heard your wives say that when you thought the fight was over)

Allow me to interject a bit of ribaldry here - there are 3 generations of drivers out there now who have never owned/driven a car with a back seat big enough to -  >:D

And if they tried and were taller than jockey's they'd be in physical therapy for a year.

Cadillac bring back a 'boat', a 'land yacht' for the masses. Stuff a GMC Sierra engine it, run it up the flag pole and watch everyone salute. No it won't get 50mpg, we can afford gas now, we have the American supply again and the economy can support it. 19' long, 8' wide, no back up cameras or radar, it would have sonar. Get busy GM. Laurie!

I have it on very good authority that the back seat of  RWD 133" WB Fleetwods is plenty big enough....  :P

Hey if bmw can make 7 series that are huge compared to just about every Cadillac sedan out there (I haven't parked one next to a CT6) and mercdaisy can make a S series they why can't Cadillac??? And both of those companies have several convertibles...

And as to after the fight is over - it's Never over...  :-X
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2018, 07:54:15 AM »
Crossover/SUV craze?

I still try to classify it as a "craze" in hopes that sales of crossovers and SUVs don't continue to take away so many sales from the types of vehicles I prefer and grew up with i.e. sedans and coupes.  First, personal coupes lost cachet and now sedans are too.  I don't dislike crossovers and SUVs, I just prefer them as Jeeps, GMCs, Land Rovers, etc rather than Cadillacs, Lincolns, BMWs, Mercedes, etc.  Today's market is what it is and that's fine.

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2018, 07:58:34 AM »
Hey if bmw can make 7 series that are huge compared to just about every Cadillac sedan out there (I haven't parked one next to a CT6) and mercdaisy can make a S series they why can't Cadillac???

The BMW 7-Series isn't significantly larger than the Cadillac CT6.  The BMW is only 2.5" longer and has less front head room and leg room.  And like most large sedans, the BMW 7-Series has seen sales declines.  Its 2017 sales in the U.S. fell 28% are and down 58% from 15 years ago.

Offline 49er

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2018, 07:59:58 AM »
For everything there is a season. Cadillac enjoyed a very long summer. But for any number of reasons to many to count, fall has arrived.
Art Archambeault 22010.                                                           38 LaSalle, 5019
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Offline gkhashem

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2018, 09:24:52 AM »
A very simple business truth I learned many years ago.

It is difficult to get to new customers and not too difficult to retain them. People are slow to change and will put up with some issues. So you need to keep your current customers happy and they in turn tell other people. Much better than advertising and much more effective in the long run. But executives are not in it for the long run today they want their bonuses now and so they send the company into a slow downward spiral.

So Cadillac caused their own customer alienation. From the HT4100 to cheap interiors and so on you fill in the blank why people left the brand. Now even if they made nicest luxury car in the world you need to do it for many years and slowly win people back. A difficult and expensive task.

In today's short time span for results and gratification not easy to do. Also there are many luxury competitors to choose from.
1959 Cadillac Coupe Deville
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan
1966 Cadillac Coupe Deville (Senior #861)
1970 GMC C/K 1500
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (Senior Crown #959)
1984 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royal Brougham Coupe
1989 Buick Reatta
1991 Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo (OCA 1st)
1991 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz (Senior #838)

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2018, 11:27:12 AM »
So Cadillac caused their own customer alienation. From the HT4100 to cheap interiors and so on you fill in the blank why people left the brand. Now even if they made nicest luxury car in the world you need to do it for many years and slowly win people back. A difficult and expensive task.

That's part of it but an even bigger part of it is the market shift away from the types of vehicles that once dominated not just Cadillac's business but Lincoln's too.  20+ years ago large sedans and personal coupes accounted for the bulk of their sales and when key segments of a business diminish as these have, sales suffer regardless of any quality issues.  Mercedes-Benz quality reputation compared to other brands isn't what it used to be in say the 1980s, for example, yet they have seen record sales here in the states as late as 2016.

Cadillac's, and Lincoln's, bigger struggle has been trying to shake their reputations as land yacht, old man car companies.

Offline e.mason

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2018, 11:59:05 AM »
I still try to classify it as a "craze" in hopes that sales of crossovers and SUVs don't continue to take away so many sales from the types of vehicles I prefer and grew up with i.e. sedans and coupes.  First, personal coupes lost cachet and now sedans are too.  I don't dislike crossovers and SUVs, I just prefer them as Jeeps, GMCs, Land Rovers, etc rather than Cadillacs, Lincolns, BMWs, Mercedes, etc.  Today's market is what it is and that's fine.

I associate the word "craze" with the word "fad".  In any event craze/fad?  Perhaps, but I don't think so.  Here's my take on current sales on trucks, suvs, vans, and crossovers.  Lets go back to the late 60's and early 70's where it all began.  In the 60's the Volkswagen Kombi/Minibus was the vehicle of choice for Hippies.  They saw the value of having a utilitarian vehicle, and forsaking contemporary values in modern automobiles.  Next came the introduction of a new word in our lexicon "Sticker Shock".  Buyers would enter a Chevrolet dealership, and were literally shocked by the sticker price.  Many then noticed the lowly pickup and its more affordable price, and thought "Why not?"  The rocket took off.  While SUV's were already in production, it was at this time the majors, saw the benefit of mass producing a SUV, that would appeal to the masses.  Along the way the pickups were made more comfortable and better riding.  Sales then snowballed.  There was no stopping the craze.  Next came the crossovers.  I remember being on Buicks mailing list for the introduction of the Rendezvous.  They used Tiger Woods as their pitchman.  It was touted as having the all the comforts of a sedan, SUV and van, hence "crossover".  It should be noted that all through this evolution. Cadillac resisted in joining in the party.  They came late to the party.  In any event, I think the SUVs etc., are here to stay for the masses.

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2018, 12:08:19 PM »
There's more to it than that. Punitive CAFE regulations played a significant role in effectively legislating full size cars out of existence while encouraging truck & truck-based vehicles to flourish because EPA regulations are different depending on how vehicles are classified.

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Offline e.mason

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #48 on: January 04, 2018, 12:10:43 PM »
There's more to it than that. Punitive CAFE regulations played a significant role in effectively legislating full size cars out of existence while encouraging truck & truck-based vehicles to flourish because EPA regulations are different depending on how vehicles are classified.

Yes that was also a big factor.  If I remember correctly.  Trucks didn't have the same safety regs as automobiles, which did make them cheaper. 

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #49 on: January 04, 2018, 12:13:35 PM »
Not safety, CAFE regs. (ie MPG).
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Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2018, 12:18:20 PM »
For the record, the net result of safety regs was decreased overall fleet safety because the mandates drove the price of new cars up so high, it therefore paid to keep older (unsafe) vehicles on the road longer. This has been written about. 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 12:48:57 PM by Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 »
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Offline David Greenburg

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2018, 01:28:03 PM »
Things have been tightened up in the last 10-15 years, but at the beginning of the “light truck” craze (that is what NHTSA called vehicles that were not conventional passenger cars, the light truck category was not subject to the same degree of safety standards.  Varous requirements, including airbags, were not imposed on the light truck category until well after they were imposed on passenger cars.  And the CAFE standard for trucks was frozen at  20.2 mpg (meaning 15-16 in reality) for about 25 years.
David Greenburg
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Offline e.mason

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2018, 02:10:51 PM »
Not safety, CAFE regs. (ie MPG).

Its only been since the 1999 model year, federal regulations have required light trucks to meet the same major safety requirements as passenger cars. These regulations require that pickups include dual front airbags and meet side-impact structural standards. Heavy-duty models with gross vehicle weight ratings (GVWRs) above 8,500 pounds remain exempt from certain standards — most notably, airbag requirements.

Offline gkhashem

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2018, 02:15:45 PM »
That's part of it but an even bigger part of it is the market shift away from the types of vehicles that once dominated not just Cadillac's business but Lincoln's too.  20+ years ago large sedans and personal coupes accounted for the bulk of their sales and when key segments of a business diminish as these have, sales suffer regardless of any quality issues.  Mercedes-Benz quality reputation compared to other brands isn't what it used to be in say the 1980s, for example, yet they have seen record sales here in the states as late as 2016.

Cadillac's, and Lincoln's, bigger struggle has been trying to shake their reputations as land yacht, old man car companies.

Really? So why has Mercedes or Lexus or fill in the blank having record sales. Certainly not all of their cars are SUVs? Cadillac SUVs have been some of their best sellers. People buy on reputation often and Cadillac has a poor one. That is hard to reverse. The brand has been damaged and mismanaged. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. So people stay away whether true or not.

Other makes stole the American luxury car customers years ago. So as the old men die off and got stiffed by a junk the next generation (junior) would not buy a Cadillac since they dropped the ball. So the die was cast. They lost reputation and lost future customers. I remember families would be loyal to a car brand and always buy the same brand. But if you get a lemon you switched. Once you switched you are hard to get back.

Now are they making better quality vehicles? Maybe but it's s difficult battle to get people to consider a Cadillac when everyone alive in recent history has a dim perception of the brand.

Cadillac has damaged itself, GM got arrogant and did not treat the customer as king. GM has tried to prune Cadillac dealers and make them stand alone from other GM brands. Why? They are trying to make the customer experience like a Mercedes, to cultivate a new generation of buyers since they killed off the potential buyers because of poor cars 30 years ago and lost the connection within families that were loyal Cadillac buyers for years. So now they need to cultivate new buyers, hard to do in a competitive field.

 They are trying to create a new image, They remade the emblem etc etc. So far it's not working.
1959 Cadillac Coupe Deville
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan
1966 Cadillac Coupe Deville (Senior #861)
1970 GMC C/K 1500
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (Senior Crown #959)
1984 Oldsmobile Delta 88 Royal Brougham Coupe
1989 Buick Reatta
1991 Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo (OCA 1st)
1991 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz (Senior #838)

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2018, 02:24:49 PM »
For the record, the net result of safety regs was decreased overall fleet safety because the mandates drove the price of new cars up so high, it therefore paid to keep older (unsafe) vehicles on the road longer. This has been written about.

Yet with all of the various added safety features in recent times, the overall price of many cars has dropped.  For example, the base price of a base 1998 Chevy Malibu twenty years ago was $15,670 or approximately $24,000 in 2017 dollars while the base price of a 2018 Chevy Malibu L is just $21,680 or approximately 10% less inflation adjusted.

As this is a Cadillac forum, let's look at Cadillac.  The base price of a 1998 Cadillac DeVille twenty years ago was $37,695 or approximately $57,700 in 2017 dollars while the base price of a 2018 Cadillac XTS is just $46,395 or approximately 20% less inflation adjusted.

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2018, 02:31:56 PM »
Yet with all of the various added safety features in recent times, the overall price of many cars has dropped.  For example, the base price of a base 1998 Chevy Malibu twenty years ago was $15,670 or approximately $24,000 in 2017 dollars while the base price of a 2018 Chevy Malibu L is just $21,680 or approximately 10% less inflation adjusted.

As this is a Cadillac forum, let's look at Cadillac.  The base price of a 1998 Cadillac DeVille twenty years ago was $37,695 or approximately $57,700 in 2017 dollars while the base price of a 2018 Cadillac XTS is just $46,395 or approximately 20% less inflation adjusted.

I wonder what today's new car prices would have been if GM had to scratch for itself without the benefit of multibillion dollar bailout.  ???   

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Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2018, 02:35:42 PM »
Really? So why has Mercedes or Lexus or fill in the blank having record sales. Certainly not all of their cars are SUVs? Cadillac SUVs have been some of their best sellers. People buy on reputation often and Cadillac has a poor one. That is hard to reverse. The brand has been damaged and mismanaged. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me. So people stay away whether true or not.

Much of Mercedes sales growth has come from the crossover/SUV segments.  The fact that they have gone more down market over time with lower entry prices has helped too.  Thirty years ago you couldn't get into a new Mercedes for less than around $56K (when inflation adjusted) retail in the states.  Today, Mercedes has over a half dozen models with starting prices less than that including the CLA which starts at under $34,000.

Cadillac's reputation issue is as a land yacht, old man car brand which hasn't been easy to shake.  They will finally be adding more crossovers to satisfy that market need which will help sales.  One crossover (XT5) and the Escalade SUVs aren't enough.

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2018, 02:40:50 PM »
Mercedes quality is nowhere what had been either.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline Big Apple Caddy

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2018, 02:47:03 PM »
Mercedes quality is nowhere what had been either.

True.

As I stated in an earlier post in this topic, "Mercedes-Benz quality reputation compared to other brands isn't what it used to be in say the 1980s, for example, yet they have seen record sales here in the states as late as 2016."

Offline WTL

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Re: Darkest before the dawn.
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2018, 02:49:08 PM »
I have a question -

When a lot of people talk about Cadillac, and talk about the sedans, they are talking about I suppose the 50s and 60s. 

What about the pre-war cars and design language?  They had several different designs, some termed sedan, some phaeton - I have never been exactly clear on it all, but I always thought a sedan had a trunk, with the rear window positioned in front and above the trunk - but those 30s cars, dare I say it, you could design one with a tailgate like a crossover.  I don't know if they could incorporate cues from that era, given the radical differences in so much, including safety requirements, but I do wonder from time to time if a crossover that wasn't built like crap (like a pt cruiser), but that was graceful and had ample odes to the 30s cars would be a exciting direction,. 

How far is this car really, body wise, from a crossover?  http://www.happycarz.com/showroom/1934-cadillac-series-20-model-355-d-four-door-sedan/  Yeah ground clearance is less, but most people buying crossovers aren't really in it for 4wd anyway, they are using them as station-wagons - something the 50s and 60s had plenty of. 
« Last Edit: January 04, 2018, 02:57:41 PM by WTL »