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Battery Draining Problem

Started by Dennis J. DiNorcia #19071, April 15, 2007, 07:24:48 AM

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Dennis J. DiNorcia #19071

I have another post about smoke coming out of the steering column on my 1989 DeVille. What I would like to know is with the negative battery cable off and a test lamp between the terminal and battery post should there be ANY drainage showing. With the horn fuse in the light comes on fully and fades out instantly and stays off. With the fuse out, this does not happen. My mechanic says it is the radio memory and with the retained access power feature in this car it is normal. Is this true?

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Gday Dennis,

One of the real problems with these Newer vehicles with computers, Memory Radios, and the like, is that they are constantly draining the battery when the iglition is turned off.

Dont forget that the Clocks of old constantly drew current, and if a vehicle is left for a long time with the battery not disconnected, the charge will go.

In years to come, I can see that this is going to be a real problem as all these newer cars get older, and used less and less.

It wont always be the Decopmposing Plastics and the shrinking rubber weatherstripping that might be the death, but electrical problems as corrosion and shorting develop through lack of use.

It will be cost-prohibitive to locate and rectify the problems.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

P.S.   Sorry I cant be of much assistance with your actual problem.

Dennis J. DiNorcia #19071

Started the car this morning and it started fine. It sat for the whole day, when I started it this evening, just clicks but no start. It looks like the positive cable is slightly loose so I thought this might be causing it not to get the charge but when I went out later this evening the battery is totally dead, no lights clicking, nothing. I am stumped. My next test this weekend is to start the car, test for drain and remove the negative cable while it sits for the week and see if it still has power over the next weekend. If not, then I assume a bad battery. It is only a few months old. Any other suggestions? Thanks.

Geoff Newcombe #4719

Only suggestion I have is to make sure your battery, ground, and starter connections are clean and tight.  If the battery is bad it should not have started this morning as you stated.

Bruce Reynolds # 18992


Dennis,

I totally agree with Geoff.

Check all terminals, and I mean all.   Dont just give them a bit of a wiggle, undo them, clean them, and then refasten them.

This way, you will eliminate any dry-joints, and also any corrosion that could have become built-up between the cable, terminal and surface.

Charge the Battery up, and try again, and if necessary, swap in a know Battery in good condition, and see if there is any change.

The Battery you purchased could be faulty, but highly unlikely, unless it was very old stock, and had been boiled dry from overcharging, or the plates had phosphated.

A Battery Tester that checks the battery under load id a good item to have, but an even simpler one is to have a friend hold a multimeter on the battery terminals, and with the voltage showing on the meter readout, or gauge, hit the starter motor, and then read what the voltage is showing whilst cranking.

If it is down to 5 or 6 volts, then the battery is at fault.   If it only drops to arouind 10 or 11 volts, then it is okay.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

Dennis J. DiNorcia #19071

Came home from work tonight and connected the negative cable that I removed this morning. Car clicked once, but no start. Hokoed up jumper cables to my other car and it started up in an instant. I let it run for about ten minutes then took off the negative cable and the car still ran. No alternator problem here. Hooked up test lamp between negative cable and negative post, it showed no drain. (No light came on) Shut it down, it started in an instant. ran it for another five minutes then shut it down and disconnected the negative cable again. I will leave it for a few days, if it is dead then I assume a bad battery. Am I forgetting something?

Geoff Newcombe #4719

One more thing.  It could also be your starter solenoid, is the battery really dead when it just clicks?  Turn on the headlights next time before starting, if they stay bright when you attempt to start the car even though the starter just clicks, then you are still at a bad connection somewhere OR a bad starter solenoid.  Starter solenoids, when failing, will sometimes work and sometimes just click, try the starter a few more times and it may work (if the solenoid is going bad).  However, a poor connection at the battery, starter, or a ground can do the same thing.  Kind of a Catch 22 isnt it.  :-)

Dennis DiNorcia CLC #19071

When the car doesnt start, I just get a click and all lights go out. Last time it was at the shop my mechanic thought it might have been the starter so he changed the solenoid. As soon as a jumper is connected, all lights are bright and the car cranks over and starts instantly. Hopefully I will know more when I reconnect the battery this weekend. Im hoping the batter is dead with the cable off so I can be assured it is the battery draining itself since there is no cable connected. I will post again after I get more informantion. Thanks to everyone for all the support.

TJ H 20664

I dont know if this is could be the problem here since he mentioned replacing the starter but it has happend to me 2x in the last couple of years but untill then I had never heard of it before.  

Happend on a 73 Eldo and a 93 Roadmaster both had been sitting or had little use recently but both had been run within the last couple of days when this happend.  Everything looks normal, turn the key and just get a click.  Go out wiggle the cables, try again just a click.  Hook up jumper cables to a running car, first try click and second try a normal start.  This happend one time when a buddy was around and he grabbed the fan or alternator to move the engine slightly and the thing started right up.  

Theory is that since these are both older high mileage cars that there is plenty of wear and sludge and slime on the starter parts making them slightly sticky.  Since the GMs use the intigrated solinoid/relay mounted on the staterer for the relay to fully engage the bendix gear has to engage the ring gear.  The contacts in the relay are most likely not in the best condition just from age and use (and salt on the roads where I live).  THe gears are not in new condition eiter.   What we think is happening is you get a weak contact that pushes the gear out where it happens to hit square on one of the teeth on the ring gear, this prevents the relay contact from moving farther and pushing harder and breaking through the corrosion on the contact.  Moving the engine slightly moves the gear so next time you try it meshes with the teeth and there is then enough spring pressure on the contact to break thorough the crud and get the starter spinning.  The arcing from the full load of the starter actually burns off some corrosion also.  In normal operation enough voltage gets through from that first contact to start turning the starter so it fully engages.  The reason it workes with a jumper cable is a running car is going to have a few more volts behind it than the non running car so the extra volts are just enough to break though and start the starter turning.

What do you think of the theory?   It doesnt seem to happen on stuff that gets started often or is kept inside so the corrosion combined with typical wear and tear seems possible.

On the roadmaster we disabled the spark or fuel so it would not start and bumped the starter 20-30 times and as far as I know it has not ever done it again.  Car had 240K on it at the time but the starter only had 70K.  The eldo did it last time we had to move it but a slight turn and more volts gets it running every time.  THis is just a parts car that only gets started when we need to move it.

TJ H
20664

Geoff Newcombe #4719

While it could be the starter itself (but since it has a new solenoid), I am STILL of the opinion that it is a bad connection or possibly a bad cable.  As TJH said, the jumper cables are giving just enough extra voltage to overcome WHATEVER this vexing problem is.  I know it has already been checked (right?), but the first thing I would have checked the first time this happened would be the cable connections at the battery, a loose connection or corrosion there will do just what Dennis is describing and is the most common place for it to happen.  Annnd I HAVE had nearly new batteries go bad.  

Having said all that, I am now just waiting anxiously to hear the outcome of all this because I am certainly fresh out of ideas.

Dennis DiNorcia CLC #19071

I should have mentioned that the battery cables were cleaned and I even changed the battery cable bolts with new ones since the old ones were starting to reound off and I could not really tighten them up without them stripping. As far as I can determine, the starter was checked, the alternator is charging, the cables to the starter and battery were cleaned and tightened. I will let you know what happens this weekend. Thanks, everyone.

Bruce Reynolds # 18992

Gday Dennis,

Me thinks it is about time that you borrowed a new battery, or a known good one, and simply replaced the suspect one, and gave that a few days to see what happens.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV

Porter

Dennis,

Dont disconnect the battery cable while the engine is running, you can damage the alternator.

Porter

Wayne Womble 12210

A couple of things. A test light is not a sufficient tool to check for draw. It will not light unless the draw is several amps. You need some type of ammeter to know exactly what you are dealing with.  I find that the most common drain is a diode in the alternator. The alternator may charge almost normally, but still drain off the battery. If you get a meter in line and start checking the circuits, by un-plugging components and fuzes you will soon find the area and then locate the culprit.

Dennis J. DiNorcia #19071

I couldnt wait till the weekend, my curiosity got the best of me. I connected the battery cable tonight and the car started on the dime which leads me to believe it is not the battery but something draining it. It was suggested to me that if there is a leak in the rear leveling system the pump will keep replacing the air, thus running even with the car off. (What a stupid idea GM had, who cares if the car is level when it is not running) With this in mind I removed the fuse for the level control system and I left the battery connected to see if this may solve the problem. I really dont know how often it would come on and if it is enough to drain the battery in a few days. I will keep updating as I get more results.

Dennis DiNorcia CLC #19071

My mechanic called and said he did a drain test on the battery and noticed a clicking from the level control compressor. He said the test light was on until he pulled the main feed plug off of it then the light went out. I did notice the clicking from the compressor while I did my testing but when I did the test there was no light on. Also I did remove a fuse that I thought was for the Level Control system but the next day the battery was dead anyway. Are there two fuses, one for the pump and one for the level switch? Maybe I pulled the wrong fuse? He thinks it could be a relay in the pump shorting out and draining the battery. I did not think a slight leak in the air ride would cause the pump to come on so many times overnight that it would kill the battery so maybe he is right. What do you guys think? He is charging up the battery, leaving the pump disconnected and keeping the car overnight. I will see tomorrow morning if the car starts.

Matt #12861

Dennis, I have the exact same problem. four years ago coming back from Pennsylvania Smoke started coming out of the steering column of my 1993 60 special.  We joked about it but Im on my fourth battery in the last four years, every symptom the same, its ok if I drive it every day, if I let it sit the battery drains down.  I charge the battery, it drains, I charge it...until it wont take a charge at all. Then I take the battery back to Autozone, they check it, say it is no good and give me a new one.  I watched the leveling, but dont hear it running.  I changed the alternator, no difference.  When the battery is drained and wont charge and I try to start it, it clicks and the heater fan and radio come even though they were of and all the dash indicators flash.  Drove it for a year with the fuse out of the radio, that didnt help.

I almost junked it but it IS a sixty special...

Good luck I hope you figure it out.  Nothing like the anxiety of turning the key away from home and hoping it starts. I keep a charger/extension cord and jumber cables in the back seat (if the battery is dead and cant be charged and you open the trunk it wont latch shut).

Dennis DiNorcia

I have had the level compressor disconnected for two days now and the car started each morning without a problem. Each time the car sat overnight and in the past that was enough to get it to go dead. I will see if I can hold out till the weekend and after four days of the car sitting, I will see if it starts.