Brake nightmare with a 1959 Deville

[pfriesen]

Hi folks, new member here from the middle of Canada. I've got a brake problem that's driving me around the bend and nearly caused a disaster. Hoping someone can help. It's a bit of a long story. Hopefully you can bear with me.

The car
Eight years ago my wife got a chance to buy the 1959 Sedan Deville that her grandfather used to own. A family friend owned it for the previous 35 years, putting just 8,000 miles on it. Total mileage around 50,000 now. Not minty, but a really nice survivor.

When we bought it in 2009 we had the brakes completely redone: new shoes, hoses and wheel cylinders all around, new lines. All were corroded from lack of use. Everything worked fine until last summer, when a different mechanic replacing the water pump (it was the original!) noticed a leaking wheel cylinder, rear passenger side. He suggested replacing both sides, plus the brake shoes, in case the one had been contaminated. I didn't check my file to see what had all been done in '09, so I ordered two new cylinders and shoes from USA Parts Supply.

We got the work done, and on the way home, I smelled burning, pulled over and saw smoke from beneath the car. Rear wheels were too hot to touch, especially the passenger side.

Back to the shop, where they made an adjustment. I left for home again, and the brakes failed completely on the way. Nearly hit two cars before finally turning off the busy road and coasting to a stop. Had the car towed back to the shop. Was told rear passenger side wheel cylinder failed, causing complete loss of pressure.

Ordered yet another cylinder (USA Parts Supply) and a new hose. Installed. Since then there's been a horrendous screeching sound when the brakes warm up. Can't pin down which wheel it's coming from. Lots of other squeaks have developed, too.

Back to the shop, where they see a rear axle seal leak. They guess that's causing the brake screech. Winter hits, and I hibernate.

Having lost confidence in that shop, I find a transmission/axle specialist early this summer to replace the rear bearing/seal that's leaking. But the screech and squeaks remain. Brakes need to warm up before it really starts.

Found another long-time mechanic who knows drum brakes. He takes it apart this week and suggests new shoes, all around. Says noise was coming from all four wheels. Says the shoe on the rear passenger side was on wrong: the shoe that was supposed to be on one part of the wheel was on the other, and vice-versa. Everything else looks fine, including the drums and hardware. Remember, all four shoes were replaced in 2009 when we bought the car. Then the two in the rear were replaced again last summer.

The mechanic suspects the metal content in the shoes is causing the noise. Says the shoes feel like sandpaper when he rubs his finger on them. Wishes I could get old stock asbestos shoes, but they don't seem to be available. I point out these brakes never squeaked until the troubles last fall. He still wants to replace the shoes. Doesn't know what else to try.

My questions:
-Could the reversed shoe have caused the screech, if not all the squeaking from everywhere else? (I haven't driven it since he put it on correctly just yesterday; car is still in the shop)
-Is there a shoe with less or no metal content? My research suggests there is not. The current shoes are Raebestos, standard grade, according to USA Parts Supply.
-Any other suggestions?

Thanks for reading.

Paul, in Canada.

[Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373]

Have a few questions. I am not a brake expert but these will be asked.
Is there any change in the pedal feel from before it makes noise and after?
You say all lines were changed. Does that include the rubber line?
Climb under the car and check the parking brake cable. Is it tight when off?
Does it pull to one side?
Is any wheel hotter than the others?
Does it seem like the brakes are on while driving?
Thanks
Jeff

[TJ Hopland]

Any grease, oil, or brake fluid on the linings will cause problems and trying to clean them is almost never successful so if there were leaks replacing them is the way to no matter what the material was or how old it was.    If there was dragging and they got hot the linings can develop a glaze which sometimes can be 'sanded' off but if it was only happening on one wheel or shoe sanding one and not the other could cause an imbalance so replacing the set on that axle may be a more efficient way to get back to a matched set.  Disc pads are easy to sand because they are flat.   The curve of a drum makes for a much more complex process unless just scuffing the surface will do.   Some materials really seem to get damaged by badly overheating others seem to tolerate it better.     

Sounds like you just have to find a shop that knows old school drum brakes.    Back when 4 wheel drums were common they were a little more complex than the rear only drums we saw in the 70-90's.         

The rear only generally don't have an adjustable anchor pin so nothing to align or adjust other than the shoe wear adjustment.    Also by the time of the rear only it seems like 95% of the makes and models more or less use the same design so the short shoe ends up in the front.   About all that varied was how the self adjuster mechanism worked but even those were more the same than different,  basically cable vs rod. 

In the 4 wheel drum days there were a lot more variables which I assume had to do with blending maximum performance while still paying attention to production costs and possibly patents.   I believe there were designs that did not have the short shoe in the front.   They also varied where the material was on the short shoe.   Sometimes the short lining was at the top others at the bottom while others were in the middle.  Where it was placed depended on where the wheel cylinder was and what was fixed vs what could pivot.   It can be difficult to look at the system and guess if and where the short one should be.  Maybe back in the day someone could but today I don't think there are many people that know drums that well.   Best to check the shop manual to see where the short shoe goes on each wheel because it may not be the same front and back and to make sure the orientation and length of the short shoe looks like it could be correct. 

Once you have the correct parts in the correct location the next two variables that almost no one ever deals with with rear only drums is aligning the anchor pin and matching the curve of the shoes to the drum.   There is a term for the matching the curve thing but I can't currently remember what it is.   

Due to tolerances and or machining the curve of the shoe lining may not be an exact match for inside of the drum.   IF they are not exactly matched you won't get full contact of the linings to the drums.   IF its close they will tend to wear in fairly quickly.   With rear only that is usually good enough because the rears are not as critical as the fronts.   Apparently back in the day the good shops had the machine to basically sand the new shoes to match the drums.    Heavy truck shops apparently still have these tools and do this process.

The second thing is the anchor pin.  Most 4 drum drums or baking plates will have more slots in them than just the one for the star wheel adjuster.  These slots are to allow you to check the clearance at various points around the drum.   Shop manuals have specs for these gaps.   To get the gaps correct its a combination of moving the anchor pin and adjusting the start wheel.     I believe most systems ended up kinda offset in the hole vs centered like you would guess.   It has to do with the first contact happening in the correct place so the self applying characteristics happen predictably and smoothly.   This also has to match side to side so one wheel doesn't apply sooner or harder than the other.   

[pfriesen]

Thanks for the responses.

Jeff, to answer your questions:
-I have not noticed a change in the pedal feel.
-I'm not sure if the rubber line was changed, but the guy seemed very thorough in changing everything that was old and tired.
-The car is in the shop so I can't crawl under it now and check the parking brake cable. But I've felt no dragging of brakes at all through any of this. Not even when I had the overheating issue.
-I haven't checked the temperature of the hubs since the obvious over-heating issue last summer.

TJ, that's a lot of info; you clearly have dealt with this stuff before. We are about to try a new set of rear shoes, so that may address the potential damage caused from the overheating or leaking of last summer.

I have a shop manual and left it with the mechanic. Whether he actually goes to the trouble of reading it and learning all the nuances of adjustments is another story. He does have 40 years experience and comes highly recommended by the vintage car community here, which is large.

I will update this post when we get the car back, hopefully at the end of the day, and spend some time test driving.

Thanks for the input so far. It is very much appreciated.

Paul Friesen

[savemy67]

Hello Paul,

Many things have to come together just right for drum brakes to work as intended.  If I recall correctly. the '59 Cadillac used the Bendix design, two-point adjustable anchor on the front brakes, and the Bendix design, sliding anchor on the rear brakes.  As TJ mentioned, this requires attention to the adjustment procedures outlined in the shop manual.

Hopefully, your mechanic with 40 years experience will read the shop manual and adjust the brakes as described.  The procedure for matching the linings to the presumed perfect circle of the drum is called arcing the shoes/linings.  This step is important, but due to the physics of braking built into the design of the '59's brakes, the proper adjustment procedure must be followed.  The foregoing is irrespective of the condition of the hydraulic system.

A limited number of things could have caused your system to fail, and to make noise.  I suspect that the shop that worked on the water pump and brakes last summer was not able to properly work on the brakes on a '59 Cadillac.  When the shoes/linings were replaced last summer, was anything done to the drums?  I think it is unlikely that a reversal of the shoes at one wheel would cause a screech.  This link is to a short article on friction material:

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2013/08/30/tech-101-how-to-choose-the-right-brake-friction-material/

and this link is to RockAuto showing organic and ceramic shoes for '59 Cadillacs:

http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/cadillac,1959,deville,6.4l+390cid+v8,1320545,brake+&+wheel+hub,brake+shoe,1688

so it seems that different lining materials are available for your '59's brakes.

Where in the middle of Canada are you located?

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

[pfriesen]

Hi Christopher,

I'm in Winnipeg, smack dab in the middle of the country.

A couple things:
I doubt last summer's shop did anything to my drums. My new mechanic says my drums are like new.

He also says shaping the shoes to the drums isn't done anymore, that it would take ridiculously expensive air-cleaning equipment to pass safety standards to do that. I know they're not made of asbestos anymore, so I'm not sure if that's fact or simply an unwillingness to do that.

As for materials, my research has come up with several shoes claiming to be organic. Of course, metal, which my mechanic suspects is the problem, is organic. To me, ceramic is hard and more modern. In my mind an old asbestos shoe is softer, which is what we'd ideally go for.

It turns out the shop did not get the new shoes in today, so they're keeping the car (indoors, of course) for the weekend and doing the job Monday. I'll get on the horn first thing Monday and kindly suggest he read the shop manual and follow the instructions, 40 years experience or not.

Appreciate the feedback, and welcome more of it.

I'll try to attach a photo for your enjoyment. Here it is at the same family farm it used to live at from 1962-73ish.

Paul

[pfriesen]

I've found a couple more pics, if you're interested:

[pfriesen]

Christopher, I ran into '60 owner at a car show on the weekend, and he claimed these drum brakes are self-adjusting. Said I should drive in reverse and hit the brakes a few times and they would "self-adjust."

I've actually heard this before. Is it a load of nonsense?

Paul

[Glen]

I’m not sure what year that started, but I know my 61 Coupe DeVille had that future as does my 68 ELDO. 

When you back up and apply the brakes, the shoes try to move, if they move too much a lever contacts the adjusting star wheel and takes a bit of the slack out.  After doing that a few times the brakes become adjusted properly.     

[David Greenburg]

'60 brakes are self-adjusting.  It was the first year of this feature.

[savemy67]

Hello Paul,

As David G. indicated, the '60 brakes are self-adjusting.  If I recall correctly, as is the case with my '67, the star wheel adjusters are specific to each side of the car.  That is, the right side star wheel needs to be re-installed on the right side of the car, and the left side star wheel needs to be re-installed on the left side of the car when any service is done.  Do you think it is possible that the shop that replaced your shoes last summer interchanged the star wheels adjusters?  When this happens, the shoes are backed-off from the drum every time you hit the brakes when the car is in reverse.  Eventually, brake pedal travel increases, and effective braking is decreased or lost.  I don;t know if this was the case with your car, but it is another item that your new-old mechanic should check.

Your original post stated that your new-old mechanic wants to replace the shoes because he doesn't know what else to try.  I do not think there is an issue with semi-metallic linings.  If semi-metallic linings were problematic, there would have been much discussion on the vintage car forums.  The US Environmental Protection Agency web site indicates that asbestos brake linings are not currently banned in the US.  Canada may be different.  If your linings are contaminated, as TJ pointed out, then new shoes may be your only option.  If you install new shoes, you may want to have your drums turned, even though they look like new.  Turning the drums will provide a new surface into which the new linings can embed.

Thanks for posting the pictures.  '59s are iconic.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter

[pfriesen]

Christopher,

I doubt that happened last summer, as I felt nothing change in the pedal travel distance. But what do I know?

Monday's update: the new mechanic found some locally sourced shoes but didn't like the feel of them at all (high metal content, felt like sandpaper) so he didn't install them. I had also ordered new Raybestos shoes -- Pt # 127PG (professional grade) -- last week, from Brake Equipment Warehouse in Minneapolis. So I drove 90 minutes on my motorcycle down to a parcel service just across the US border where I'd had them shipped. They were $30 US per pair. I got two pair, for all four wheels.

Brought them to the shop in the afternoon and he'll likely install them Tuesday. The mechanic still has his doubts, because you can tell they have metal content. I told him to go ahead and try -- what other choice do I have at this point? I agree with you Christopher, if metal content was the issue, there'd be all kinds of vintage Cadillac owners with screeching brakes! And I keep reminding myself: we never had a whisper from our brakes until last summer's nightmare. Of course, last summer's nightmare was only on the rear, and the new mechanic is convinced there are squeaks coming from all four wheels. So he'll do all four.

I'm more concerned about the screech than anything. Are some quieter squeaks fairly normal? Do you guys just live with those? Or should proper drum brakes be quiet as a dead mouse?

As for the having the drums turned, yes, the mechanic said he'd do that very thing, just to clean up the drums and provide a nice surface. He said they measure the full 12 inches and appear to be perfectly round. So I've got my fingers crossed as I go to sleep tonight.

I shall keep you posted.

Again, thank you. Much, much appreciate the feedback.

Paul

[Roger Zimmermann]

I don't understand your problem. Those brake systems are so basic and simple...but, if something is not right, they can create difficulties. On the '56 de Ville I sold last year (it has the same brake system as your '59), the front shoes are creating a strong vibration during the first brake application when cold. The car did that during the 34 years I owned it. The 2 other cars I have, '56 Biarritz and '57 Brougham, don't do that, the braking is silent and vibration free.
On my drums, I still have the spring which should eliminate or reduce vibrations. Do you have them?
If your drums are round and the inner surface rather decent, I would not turn them, just sand them with coarse sand paper. The leading edge of the shoes sould also be "broken" (sorry, I cannot better explain it in my basic English).

[pfriesen]

My mechanic was just telling me about those large springs yesterday, Roger. My '59 does not have them, apparently. He seemed a bit puzzled by this. I have no idea if it's supposed to have them or not. The shop manual is with the mechanic so I can't check right now.

Anybody else know if this was part of the braking system on a '59? Sedan Deville. Series 63, I believe.

Paul

[Roger Zimmermann]

Yes, they were part of the drums. However, during almost 60 years, who knows what happened to your drums?

[Caddy Wizard]

A few points:

1.  Anytime that these shoes are replaced, the mechanic needs to do what is known as a "major" adjustment of the shoes.  This has the effect of centering the shoes properly in the drums.  It is done by adjusting the position of the upper anchor pin.  If this is not done, the brakes will not work correctly and in fact one could have the tops or bottoms of the shoes riding against the drum more or less all of the time.  This is critical when replacing shoes, but most mechanics don't do it.  The shop manual should be followed exactly in doing this adjustment.

2.  Arcing the shoes to match the radius of the shoes to the radius of the drums is another thing that most mechanics don't bother with.  It probably is not needed to avoid the overheating problem that you have experienced, but it does maximize the contact patch between the shoe's friction material and the drum.  If one can get the shoes arced to the drums, the brakes will stop noticeably better.  In the old days, lots of places had arcing machinery. Now, only places that re-line brake shoes for big trucks and heavy machinery can do it.  Look for one in your area and make friends with them.

3.  The leading edge of the shoes needs to be well beveled to avoid grabbing and digging in.  This will result in brakes that are less "touchy".

4.  In my experience, the "semi-metallic" shoes work much better than the older asbestos type of shoes.  The inclusion of the soft metal (bronze or brass, I believe) gives better stopping, without wearing out the harder cast iron drums.  I prefer these more modern style of shoes.

5.  If brakes are staying on and overheating, one additional thing to check is the rubber hose. Rubber hoses can look fine from the outside, but be partly collapsed/blocked on the inside.  When this happens, they act like a residual check valve (a one-way check valve that holds a small amount of pressure in the wheel cylinders).  This keeps the downstream wheel cylinders slightly "on" and can lead to serious overheating of the brakes.

6.  In 54-56 (an era that I am very familiar with), the leading shoe in each wheel carried a .5" x .25" groove down the middle of the shoe to keep the leading shoe cool.  If this is supposed to be there in the 59 shoes, this could be your problem.  Very few mechanics bother to groove new shoes (most new shoes come without the grooves).  I groove shoes at home with a router table and 1/2" bit. 

7.  I don't like to turn the drums unless absolutely necessary.  Unless the drums are grooved or out of round (giving a subtle pulsation in the pedal), don't do it.  Your mechanic said they were perfectly round.  If so, leave well enough alone.


Overall, doing brake work on a car like this amounts to trying to replicate the way it was done when it left the factory. Too often, mechanics just slap on a few new parts, bleed the brakes, and do a "minor" adjustment.  I am betting that is what was done to your car.

[gary griffin]

One thing we don't think about is moisture in the brake fluid corroding the brake lines and fittings.  Every time we activate the brakes we are introducing a small amount of moisture containing air and eventually corrosion within the system can cause problems.

[Mike Josephic CLC #3877]

One item that I did not see mentioned in the postings so far.

Have you or your mechanics that are working on this car checked the parking
brake?  You mentioned in one of your first posts that your initial problem
was that both rear wheels were getting very hot to the touch and shortly
afterwards you lost braking, almost having an accident.

If the parking brake mechanism is "sticking" or not working as it should
it will cause the rear brake shoes to ride on the drums creating heat.  This
heat will very quickly cause your brake fluid to turn to vapor.  Presto -- you
will immediately lose braking when this happens since vapor (unlike fluid)
doesn't compress and activate the brakes.  This could also cause an
obvious vibration as things heat up with the rear brakes.

I thought of this since it happened to me on an old Oldsmobile about 30
years ago.  It had my mechanic at the time stumped but we figured it out!

Mike

[V63]

Often times a noise is actually a high pitched vibration (how a cricket chirps),

On the backing plate itself there are 3 pads each shoe rides (slides) constantly on. these tiny pads are dimpled to hold lubricant. Just 'a little dab ell do it' on each pad.  Observe if any of these pads are shiny as a hint of the source of the noise? I also dab a little grease on the pivot on top.

My other thought is if your linings got too hot it may have 'hardened' damaged (burnt) the linings?

[pfriesen]

All great suggestions and appreciated advice. I can't check some of those things because, A) I'm not a mechanic and B) the car was been in the shop. Here's what happened Tuesday (it's good news!):

The shop called by noon and said the car was ready. New shoes installed, and all squeaks gone.

I almost didn't believe it, but sure enough, took it for a drive around the shop's neighbourhood (Canadian spelling) and the brakes felt quite different than they ever have. No pulling and no sound! I went back to the shop and shook the mechanic's hand. It appears he knows what he's doing.

Here's what he did: front drums were like new, so he only machined them enough to create a nice surface for the new shoes.

He did say the rear drums, which upon initial inspection seemed good, too, were badly warped. He had to run these through their machine (I forget what the process is called) three or four times. I asked if last summer's overheating could have caused that, and he says it could have. He also said the last shop to do brake work obviously didn't touch the drums.

So my basic suspicion appears correct: that last summer's nightmare (overheating, then complete loss of brakes) was also the cause of the screeching. That shop, needless to say, has lost my business.

I am reluctant to celebrate until I drive the thing a little more, but must admit it feels great. I'm away for work the next few days so I've left it in my wife's hands to take a spin or two and see what she thinks. It is, after all, her Cadillac, as it was her grandfather's from '61 to '73 or so.

I thank all of you who weighed in. One last question: I now have four sets of used brake shoes that have hardly any mileage on them. Are they worth keeping as replacements, since it sounds like out of round drums were my problem? Are they good as core exchanges somewhere? Or are they worthless?

Thanks. I'm glad I found this forum, and I'll be sure to stay involved here. Maybe my experience can help someone else some day.

Paul