Cadillac & LaSalle Club Discussion Forum

Cadillac & LaSalle Club Forums => Technical / Authenticity => Topic started by: J. Gomez on June 06, 2007, 04:41:11 PM

Title: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on June 06, 2007, 04:41:11 PM
Here is another mess I got myself entangled with..!

As part of my on-going restoration, I’ve decide to removed the complete A/C system (except for the trunk evaporator/blower unit) compressor, lines, etc for a good cleanup and recondition. Yesterday I started dismantling the compressor (this is the original Frigidaire A5 unit) for a well deserved cleanup and was hoping to rebuild it back (mainly new “O” rings, seals, etc), in trying to get the A/C back to a working condition.

Today while searching several discussion boards I came to realize that I could be heading into trouble in trying to restore the unit. It seems parts for the GM A5 units are impossible to find, A/C rebuilders may not be willing to tackle in working on the old A5 units (if I screwed something out..!).

My dilemma is should I go forward with the project and the possible cost in trying to get the unit back in operation, were to find the parts (other than "O" rings..!). Being the original units and in trying to keep her as original as possible, maybe this could be an impossible dream.

If anyone has tackle this type of recondition any help, comments, information in going forward with the original compressor work or replacing it with a newer unit, pros or cons would be appreciated it.

Regards,

Jose Gomez CLC # 23082
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: quadfins on June 06, 2007, 07:30:47 PM
I had my 1961 A-5 compressor rebuilt by Classic Auto Air in Tampa. I will be recharging the system soon, so I can not yet give you a report other than external - it looks fine, right down to the correct inspection stamp. A friend of mine had his rebuilt there, too, and he says it works fine, so I am optimistic.

Classic Auto Air
2020 W. Kennedy Blvd
Tampa, FL   33606

(813)   251-2356

Jim Eccleston
CLC 16079
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on June 06, 2007, 08:44:06 PM
Jim,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm in the Dallas area and having this shop work on my unit will be a bit complex. I'm currently researching a few local shops/parts centers in TX such as Oldairproducts.com in Ft. Worth.

I was able to find the GM A5 unit is similar for 1956-1957 and possible for 1959-1960 from Frigidaire and these were made available in several GM products such Pontiac, Buick, Chevy, and Olds.

If I'm lucky in finding at least the shaft seal kit the rest should be straight forward.

Regards,

Jose Gomez CLC #23082
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: 35-709 on June 06, 2007, 09:11:36 PM
I second Jim Eccleston's advice concerning Classic Auto air in Tampa.  They claim to be one of the few outfits still rebuilding the A5's.  If you have no luck in Texas (and you well might) possibly you can get the parts you need from Classic Auto Air.  Bottom line ---- whether you do it or they do it, the A5's can still be rebuilt.
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: John Washburn CLC 1067 Sadly deceased. on June 06, 2007, 09:23:39 PM
Jose,

Me too.

They reguild my compressor years ago........

John Washburn
CLC #1067
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: The Tassie Devil(le) on June 06, 2007, 11:31:53 PM
Quote from: 1937ls on June 06, 2007, 09:23:39 PM

They reguild my compressor years ago........

John Washburn
CLC #1067

G'day John,

Was it an expensive job?

Wouldn't it have been cheaper just to have left it black?

Bruce. >:D
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: 35-709 on June 07, 2007, 09:35:40 AM
Jose,
Here's a fellow in Texas you might check with if you haven't already ----- airpartsstore 877-542-8192
He claims to have OEM AC parts going way back.  He is also on eBay.  Good luck.
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on June 07, 2007, 11:46:54 AM
Goeff, and John,

Thanks to both for your information, this will be helpful. At least I know now the unit could be put back to service from either or the two sources, great.

Much appreciated it.

Jose Gomez CLC # 23082
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: John Washburn CLC 1067 Sadly deceased. on June 07, 2007, 07:18:19 PM
Jose,

Just had an A5 Rebuilt last year by the folks in Florida. Was over $640.00 with shipping the damn thing both ways.

Great job with all the original decals and markings.

John Washburn
CLC #1067
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: rex crews 18304 on June 17, 2007, 09:54:33 PM
I don't know what you've done yet, but are you certain the a/c compressor needs a rebuild?  About all that can go bad on the flanged A-5 is the shaft seal, which is still available.  If the compressor is locked up or something like that, you might consider going to an A-6.  These old compressors are pretty reliable in my experience, and often if the shaft seal is leaking some, it will reseal when you run the charged system for a while.  I've messed with a lot of these old systems, so if I can help you further, feel free to email me.  If the '56 system is workig properly, it should make your neck stiff with cold air!

Good luck,

Rex
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: walt #23510 on June 19, 2007, 01:53:25 PM
Rex,
  I couldn't find a source for a shaft seal for my 55...where are they available?...walt..tulsa,ok
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: 35-709 on June 19, 2007, 05:57:34 PM
Walt,
You read the posts above and you had no luck at ---- airpartsstore 877-542-8192  or at -----

Classic Auto Air
2020 W. Kennedy Blvd
Tampa, FL   33606
(813)   251-2356
?
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on June 26, 2007, 04:20:10 PM
Rex,

Sorry for the late reply vacation time..!  :)

I took the unit a part to be clean, the unit rotates free w/and w/o the coil energized, and all internal components looked ok, pistons, rings, bearings, etc. What I was looking for if I were to take the task in rebuilding it was for availability of the shaft seal kit as the primary item to complete the unit, the one in the unit is cracked (carbon material) at each opposite corners.

I did check Old Air Products in Forth Worth and although the have the item at the web page they were out and no longer available. I was told and I checked USA Auto Parts has the kit available for $287. So at this stage with the cost of having the unit rebuilt over $600 or just buying the seal kit as a DIY project and hoping everything works, I would probably go with an A6 retrofit unit instead from Old Air for $335 part # 21-3260 and making the system R-134 ready.

The question is could I reused the existing brackets front and back to fit the “big log”, without major modifications. The rest hoses, fittings, receivers, etc should be straight forward. I’ll contact the folks at Old Air for additional “411” on the A6 unit and if I could retrofit it in my ’56.

Regards,

Jose Gomez CLC #23082
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: John Washburn CLC 1067 Sadly deceased. on June 27, 2007, 07:41:37 PM
Jose,

You might consider having them rebuild you dehydrator (dryer) and checking out your expansion valve.

I spent a lot of money just to discover that the expansion valve has a metal screen to filter out junk. This was  my problem on the 56 it was clogged, but it took a lot of time and money to fix it. When I found the problem, as always, it took 5 minutes to clean the screen. So again if it is apart, check all the parts.

John Washburn
CLC #1067
56 Cadillac A/C now working well...
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on June 28, 2007, 12:02:20 PM
John,

Thanks for the suggestion..!

I envision in replacing/rebuilding those items that are a “must” to get the system back in service. I also need to replace the flex copper tubing from and to the compressor and use today’s conventional AC hoses at these points. I was told if the system is charged with a non-R12 Freon these (the originals) could leak.

I’ll start the dialog with the folks at Old Air in a few weeks to start the retrofit process.

Regards,

Jose Gomez CLC #23082
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on November 05, 2013, 10:30:14 AM
While we are on this topic, has anyone actually pulled off the pulley and the clutch from an A5?  I have the service bulletins and the manual.  It doesn't say how to check the clearance on the front set of shims.  There is a spacer in the front set along with two shims.  The rear set of shims appears to have no spacer. 
Thank you
Jim Greene
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on November 05, 2013, 11:58:45 AM
Jim,

I tackle several of these from 56 to early 60..!

The rear spacer will be inside the coil and seal housing cavity. The spacer has a conical shape (flat on one side and cone shape on the other) the flat side rest against the shaft seal, it should barely extend pass the coil and seal housing front face, the shims would rest against it.

You may not be able to see it and you will need a needle pick to get it out from the seal housing.

You will need to place these with the shims in the same order as they came out to set the appropriate gap front and aft.

The front gap is measure by placing the shims and spacer (front) on the inner race of the pulley, press firmly and rotate the clutch to obtain a slight drag. Then add an additional .010 shim for correct clearance.

The rear adjustment is done with the clutch, pulley in place and coil energized to measure the .025 - .035 between the clutch armature and the coil housing.

Just add or removed shims as needed to get the proper clearance.

Good luck..!
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on November 05, 2013, 09:42:38 PM
J. Gomez,
Another question and thank you for your response.  You are referring to pushing the clutch and the pulley together with my hands?  I have the pulley and clutch off of the compressor.  The compressor is on the car because I don't have the ability to evacuate the system.
Jim Greene
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on November 06, 2013, 08:32:13 AM
Jim,

That would be correct; you place the shims and spacer on top of the bearing and lay the clutch assembly inside. Press the clutch and rotate to feel/hear if the clutch friction plates drags against the pulley wall.

If you have not changed anything in the clutch i.e. the nylon balls and the unit work fine before, then the front and rear gaps should be within specs with the existing shims. If however someone had changed something or had open the unit before you it would be prudent to recheck the gap.

If you need additional details on servicing the unit you can download the Chevrolet manual at http://chevy.oldcarmanualproject.com/booklets/56top29/index.htm. The same Frigidaire unit was used across other GM models.

Good luck..!   
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on November 06, 2013, 10:24:50 AM
J. Gomez,
Thank you very much for the website on '56 Chevy A5 compressors.  There are many more pictures, and it makes much more sense.  Why couldn't Cadillac do that?
Thx again
Jim Greene
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on November 06, 2013, 11:21:40 AM
Quote from: jgreene on November 06, 2013, 10:24:50 AM
Why couldn't Cadillac do that?


Jim,

Good point…!  ;)

Only logical answer is, back then Cadillac as the high end class cars owner would not be involved on their regular maintenances/repairs as other GM brands.
Now fast forward a few years and now we are deeply involved with these beauties, so we are now dependent for such detail information from non-Cadillac brands I general.

I found the repair manuals for Buick, Olds, Chevrolet, etc have more in depth details than the Cadillac ones at least those I checked.  :o
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: Coupe Deville on March 05, 2014, 07:22:23 PM
Hello everyone. I looked threw that Chevy book on service of the A-5 compressor. It was very good. I will be recharging the A/C at some point in my fathers 59 Cadillac. It all seems good except i have a question about the oil. The recomended oil for the A-5 in the book was Fridgided Air oil. Wonder what the modern day equivalent oil is. I am assuming that this is the oil that is dedicated for the compressor internals only and not the oil that circulates through the A/C system. Is this correct? I was also reading up on the expansion valves and how its a good idea to look at them during a A/C service. Old air products offers a rebuilding service of the expansion valves. Would a rebuilt one be ok, or replace. Sorry for all of the questions. I really appreciate it.

Thanks

-Gavin   
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on March 05, 2014, 10:08:12 PM
Gavin,

The type of oil would be mineral viscosity 525, Frigidaire was the OEM oil but any mineral with viscosity 525 should do it.

As for your second topic, I would have to leave it for the experts here. Maybe Mr. Greg Surfas would chime in he is more knowledgeable on that area.

Good luck..!
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364 on March 05, 2014, 11:36:24 PM
Thanks for the vote of confidence. Gavin, I would strongly recommend someone knowledgeable like "Old Aire" go through both your expansion valve and the bypass valve.  Be sure and replace the receiver/dryer and when you add oil (525 viscosity Mineral oil is correct if you are  going to use R-12) be sure you ADD the quantities specified into each of the components (compressor, condenser, evaporator) the factory manual indicates.
Greg Surfas
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on March 19, 2014, 10:22:54 AM
J. Gomez,
Another question about the A-5 compressor on a 1956 Cadillac.  If I get the front shims set up correctly where they do not drag, then the rear facing clutch drags on the facing of the ring that bolts to the back (6 bolts) of the assembly.  In other words I can go through the process of a slight drag while press down on the clutch in the pulley, adding the .010 shim, then put the six bolts on the back, and the assembly drags on the rear part of the clutch.  I have put it on the car, and the moment I put the six bolts on, it drags when I spin it.  It is almost as if the clutch assembly is too thick for the space.  I can find no measurement for how far apart these two clutch plates should be (mine is 3/16" apart.)  Could the nylon balls be too large in diameter?
Thank you for reading this.
J. Greene
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on March 19, 2014, 01:46:12 PM
Jim,

I did measure the nylon balls and I still have one or maybe two in storage somewhere. The ones I have are deformed from heat and wear and tear.

I was not able to find the correct size on nylon but found them on the ceramic type, a bit more $$ but they will outlast the compressor.

I’m out of town on a business trip, and do not have any data with me, I should be able to get more precise details by end of the week/weekend.

Send me a PM as I may forget to get the information for you, old age is taking a toll..!  :D
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on March 22, 2014, 11:38:10 AM
Jim,

I had a chance to measure the spare clutch plate and the nylon balls.

Clutch plate inside gap -> 0.150”

Clutch plate outside gap (this includes the friction materials) -> 0.390”

The nylon balls are approximately 0.442”

Good luck..!
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on May 05, 2014, 10:41:01 AM
J Gomez,
I now have another question about '56 Cad a/c's.  Years ago a mechanic changed around the way the idle speed up worked, and I am trying to put it back to factory.  There are three wires coming out of the firewall---one is green, one is violet (I think) and one is black (all wrapped up together.)  I hooked the green one up to the connection on the idle speed up, and a separate wire running to the compressor.  The speed up works, but I can't get power to the compressor.  Is the black wire also part of it?  Or do I have a problem in the electrical device that triggers the idle speed up?
If anyone has a photo of the original hook-up, that would be greatly appreciated.
Thx
Jim
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on May 05, 2014, 11:35:35 AM
Quote from: jgreene on May 05, 2014, 10:41:01 AM
J Gomez,
I now have another question about '56 Cad a/c's.  Years ago a mechanic changed around the way the idle speed up worked, and I am trying to put it back to factory.  There are three wires coming out of the firewall---one is green, one is violet (I think) and one is black (all wrapped up together.)  I hooked the green one up to the connection on the idle speed up, and a separate wire running to the compressor.  The speed up works, but I can't get power to the compressor.  Is the black wire also part of it?  Or do I have a problem in the electrical device that triggers the idle speed up?
If anyone has a photo of the original hook-up, that would be greatly appreciated.
Thx
Jim

Jim,

I'm attaching the wiring diagram for the AC and the Idle speed-up via the neutral safety switch which it is missing from the manual.

Hope this helps..!
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on May 05, 2014, 02:39:15 PM
J Gomez,
Thank you for your quick response.  You had sent me this diagram before, so I have it.  Where is shows the speedup going into the circuit is not really where it goes in.  Do you know what manual that little extra diagram came from?  My problem is the three wires coming out of the firewall together (in electrical tape.)  I assume you have a '56 with air?  It would be great to get a picture of the wire(s) that come out of the firewall toward the hookups on the idle speed up device.
Thank you very much!
Jim
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on May 05, 2014, 07:49:21 PM
Quote from: jgreene on May 05, 2014, 02:39:15 PM
J Gomez,
Thank you for your quick response.  You had sent me this diagram before, so I have it.  Where is shows the speedup going into the circuit is not really where it goes in.  Do you know what manual that little extra diagram came from?  My problem is the three wires coming out of the firewall together (in electrical tape.)  I assume you have a '56 with air?  It would be great to get a picture of the wire(s) that come out of the firewall toward the hookups on the idle speed up device.
Thank you very much!
Jim

Jim,

Oops sorry forgot that I did send the diagram to you..!  :-[

Yes, I have a ’56 with AC and this diagram was spliced together from two sources one from the Service Manual Fig 16-A-4 and the neutral switch from the 1957 wiring diagram ( did not had the ’56 at that time). The speed-up solenoid was from an electronic image.

Not knowing what the shady mechanic made with the wiring from the AC control panel, I can only provide the wiring diagram and a brief explanation on the connections.
Sorry I do not have a picture that would save the lengthy explanation.

The three wires at the fire wall should be green, violet and black.

The green would be +12V from the AC control panel, when you flip the 3 way switch to the “ON” position.

The violet will be ground but only when the shifter is in “P” or “N”.

The black will be +12V for the compressor clutch solenoid feed from the rear evaporator freeze control thermostat.   If you follow the diagram you will notice the +12V source for the compressor clutch is feed from the Dark green wire at the control panel.

The +12V will only be apply when the temperature control lever is set to full (dark blue wire) or the thermostat (also at the rear unit) contacts are on the cool position.

Again sorry the lack of picture and the lengthy explanation, hope this helps..!
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on May 06, 2014, 10:06:48 AM
J Gomez
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on May 06, 2014, 10:11:44 AM
J Gomez,
Thank you for your quick response.  You are correct about the color of the wires, but now they are too short, and I am not sure how I am going to fix that.
Anyway, do you know how they hook up to the two female ends on the idle speed up unit?  Does the violet need to ground anywhere?  Should I put the black and green on the same little male end on the idle speed up unit?  You can see why I am looking for a photo of the correct hook up.
Again, thank you very much.
Jim
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on May 06, 2014, 11:15:28 AM
Jim,

but now they are too short, and I am not sure how I am going to fix that.

You can always splice a piece of wire between the connectors, solder them (I’m not too keen with the butt crimp connectors) and used a heat shrink tubing. If you do it in the middle were the wire will be covered by the tape it will not be noticeable.

Anyway, do you know how they hook up to the two female ends on the idle speed up unit? 

There is no polarity required for the speed up solenoid so either green or violet can go to any of the male bullet connector.

Does the violet need to ground anywhere? 

No the violet is the ground source. I try not to complicate the ground source on my previous reply.

The ground on the violet comes from the starter via the hold-down coil from the started solenoid which it is grounded. This is why the idle speed up only works on “P” or “N” via the neutral switch. 

Should I put the black and green on the same little male end on the idle speed up unit?

No the black goes directly to the compressor and these should not be tied together. I found my hardness and the idle speed-up which and lay them out for the attached picture, the black goes over to the compressor. Maybe someone with an AC can provide additional pictures of the wiring.

Good luck..!
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: jgreene on May 07, 2014, 10:17:26 AM
J Gomez,
Thank you very much for the very specific explanations!  The hookups look the same, but the speed up unit looks different from mine.  May have made a change late in the year, or yours is from a '57, but not sure.
All the same, thank you
Jim Greene
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on May 07, 2014, 10:57:03 AM
Quote from: jgreene on May 07, 2014, 10:17:26 AM
J Gomez,
Thank you very much for the very specific explanations!  The hookups look the same, but the speed up unit looks different from mine.  May have made a change late in the year, or yours is from a '57, but not sure.
All the same, thank you
Jim Greene

Jim,

Oops forgot to mention the one on the picture is for the Rochester 4GC yours maybe for the Carter WCFB but the wiring arrangement for it would be the same.

Good luck..!
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: 55 cadi on October 13, 2014, 10:50:19 AM
Hello,

I know this is older topic but question is,

Does it matter which wire is hooked up to the control?

Purple on the the lower connection or the upper connection?

Mine were disconnected and don't know which is where.

Thank you

Jason
55 cadi
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: J. Gomez on October 13, 2014, 11:32:09 AM
Quote from: 55 cadi on October 13, 2014, 10:50:19 AM
Hello,

I know this is older topic but question is,

Does it matter which wire is hooked up to the control?

Purple on the the lower connection or the upper connection?

Mine were disconnected and don't know which is where.

Thank you

Jason
55 cadi

Jason,

If you are referring to the idle speed up control wiring the answer is no, either wire can be hook up at any of the connectors.

Good luck..!
Title: Re: 1956 A/C Compressor rebuild dilemma
Post by: 55 cadi on October 13, 2014, 02:08:24 PM
Thank you Mr Gomez.

I also read a second time and and saw it stated so, but wanted to be positive.