Author Topic: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration  (Read 18380 times)

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #160 on: July 17, 2017, 12:21:15 PM »
Nicolas,

Shortcut nothing on the rebuild.
Ask around on who does the best machine shop work in your area. (Mine went to a shop about 80 miles away from me)
Follow my break-in procedure, ie: Oil pressure done before installation etc etc.

Take ya time, we were off the black top for 4 months.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 02:05:49 PM by Jeepers Creepers »
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline DeVille68

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2017, 01:33:30 PM »
Hi guys

Thank you so much for your kind words and your advice. Based on those I will do the following:
  • In about two weeks I will pull the engine. I do not have the original brackets for lifting the engine, I will make me some
  • I will then remove the crank and have that analyzed. How much oversize is still ok? It is already 0.01'' over, so 0.02'' still ok? or up to 0.03'' ?
  • According to the findings I will need a new crank or just bearings. I am going to replace all bearings anyways, main and connecting rod bearing. Who sells quality bearings? Mahle? Just a generic engine kit from fusick? Or should I buy from MTS (500cid.com) and order one of their rebuild kits?
  • After inspecting the crank I will look at the cylinders and decide if I need to hone them and if I need new pistons. I will definitely replace all rings.
  • Lynn could you post a picture of where this oil-hole should be drilled?
  • After that I will examine the cam, determine the condition of the lifters and rods
  • While I am in there could or should I replace the cam with a little higher performing unit from MTS? Is it worth the money?

Anyways, it will be an interesting project. Just sad that it happened so early in the season. I will post my progress and ask questions a long the way, so stay tuned! :-)

I do know a good shop just a few miles from my town. They have done the engine of my fathers 1930 Ford Model A and it turned out good. There is even a second shop that does restorations of Bentley, Riley and alike. 

Best regards, and thanks again
Nicolas
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline cadmium

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #162 on: July 19, 2017, 02:52:18 PM »
I don't have pictures of the additional oil hole in my engine.  These pictures come from the Big Inch Cadillac book by Doc Frohmader.  I don't think it's in print anymore, but if you can find a copy I recommend getting one whether you rebuild stock or hot rod it a little.

I have used MTS' MT10 cam and it's pretty nice.  It wakes the engine up pretty well, but if you do this I would also get oversize valves from MTS and port the heads and intake plenum.  If you just put a cam in an otherwise stock engine it won't do much.  If you do this get the MT10 or bigger cam.  The MT5 is about the same as a stock cam and not worth the effort IMO.

Also if you get a bigger cam, the stock Q-jet carburetor will work fine but you will probably have to open up the idle circuit a little bit.  These carbs were the early beginnings of emissions controls and the idle circuit is so choked down that it can't flow enough fuel for a bigger cam.  Frankly even with a stock cam it doesn't flow enough fuel for the idle circuit to work properly.  If you end up needing to know how to do this I can elaborate further.
1968 Coupe deVille
1968 DeVille Convertible

Offline DeVille68

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #163 on: August 03, 2017, 01:58:15 PM »
One step further: the engine is out! Was not too bad. Spent about 2.5 hr disassembling the engine compartment (power steering pump, power servo, wires etc.)
I had to create my own hocks for lifting the engine because the originals were missing. I need to get those now.
I used some old metal and bent it such that the two brackets pointed upwards. Then I welded a bar in between. Worked quite good, but the engine was not quite balanced. Had to use a strap towards the front of the engine to get the engine level.
Creating those brackets took a while, the actual removal of the engine is quite simple. Remove the nuts from the engine mount, remove all bolts between engine and trans, and then remove the three bolts securing the flywheel to the turbine. Then you need to pull the engine about 2 inches forward to free it from the two guide pins that reach into the transmission housing. Careful not to lift the engine until those are out, otherwise you will crack the housing.
Then, very important, lower the transmission first, only then rise the engine. I overlooked this step first!

Here are some pictures. Had to order a larger engine stand since the one for our Ford Model A would not do the job! :-D

I'll keep you guys updated on the teardown process.


Lynn, thanks a lot for your advice. I will definitely try to add this oil-hole. And I also need to get this book too, sounds very interesting.
Amazon does not have this one used. Is there another source for old books that you know?
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline cadmium

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #164 on: August 03, 2017, 07:52:36 PM »
It looks like you're well on your way!  Have fun!

Sorry, I don't know where to find the Big Inch Cadillac book today.  Keep your eyeballs in Amazon and eBay and one may turn up after a while.  But you can get by without it, especially if you're rebuilding stock.

One comment from my experience, I would not automatically bore the cylinders out and buy new pistons.  Measure the taper of the cylinders first to see how bad they are, or are not.  I took one of these down with 140,000 miles on it and found the worst cylinder had a taper of .007".  The rest of them were between .002" and .004".  A thank you to the high nickel content of these blocks.  I wasn't boring the cylinders out for that.  I had them honed for new rings and kept my original high compression pistons and saved a pile of money.

If you have any other questions about the rebuild process, just ask.  I've been through a couple of these engines before.
1968 Coupe deVille
1968 DeVille Convertible

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #165 on: August 06, 2017, 03:19:00 PM »
Geez, our cars always have that sad look when the motor is sitting on the crane, the suspension sitting up and of course,  our wallet about to receive the flogging of its life.

Good luck, as said above..... you're on your way... have fun.
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline DeVille68

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #166 on: September 07, 2017, 12:14:18 PM »
Hi guys,
Thanks for your advice. I made quite some progress in the past few weeks.
The engine rests now on its new engine stand. The small one for the Ford Model A engine would not do it! :-D
I had to make my own screws to mount the engine to the stand. Since I am in Europe there is little access to inch-screws. The largest screw they had was too short. So I bought a M12 threaded bar, and cut it to length. And then used the lathe and removed the thread and cut a new 3/8 UNC thread on. The thread goes about 1 inch deep into the casting, so the engine should rest very well.

Here are some pictures of the journey. We had the engine with the stand strapped to a trailer and drove it home just a few miles away from the garage that my car now sits in.

I also started to remove the front suspension. As I expected, the shocks were of the newer gas-charged type. This explains the harsh ride that I experienced. Large bumps were nice an smooth but small cracks would be directly transmitted to the chassis.
I will buy some good hydraulic shocks from eaton detroid springs. They are crazily expensive but are of good quality and are also double adjustable (which I probably wont need, but...)

Now I am in the process of ordering parts. Shocks, all bushings (tie strud, control arm, balljoints,...). I will buy those parts from rareparts.com. Any other suggestions?

I will also replace my 74++ HEI ignition because it has the large cap. I want to run an A/C compressor and the double grooved power steering pulley again. So I am going to buy a original distributor converted to HEI from David Ray (http://www.davessmallbodyheis.com). I guess he is quite recommendable?


--> I am in need for a used original rebuildable 68-69-70 472 distributor (points). Part Number: 1111939
 Please let me know if you have one.


Best regards,
Nicolas

« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 12:19:25 PM by DeVille68 »
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline mario

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #167 on: September 07, 2017, 01:22:36 PM »
nicolas:
you will not be disappointed with that distributor. mine has been installed over ten years with nothing serviced or replaced. my truck has the 500 ci engine in it. when i turn the key it starts, period. not one failure to fire. if you are out of the usa, i would order a backup module to keep in the glove box for any emergency that may arise. i would bet that you cannot buy them at your local parts store.
ciao,
mario caimotto

Offline Bentley

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #168 on: September 08, 2017, 05:40:13 PM »
Nicolas,

A few years back I bought front suspension parts for my '68 from OPGI and everything fit and worked properly.

https://www.opgi.com/cadillac

Wes
Wes Bentley
CLC # 30183

Offline DeVille68

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #169 on: September 18, 2017, 02:15:21 AM »
Thanks Mario, I am still looking for a decent affordable distributor. I hope this turns out well.

I bought all ball joints from rareparts.com and everything else from Rockauto choosing the brand Moog.
The lower ball joints are from Federal Mogul (that is Moog) and the upper ball joints are from Frap, since Moog/Federal Mogul does not make the upper ball joint anymore.

--------------

Engine disassembly started, no bolt stuck just yet. Engine looks nice and clean, there is debris of the connecting rod bearing everywhere, but otherwise no sludge.

Now, I am "stuck" with two stuck heads. I tried lifting the head off with the engine hoist, but the gasket sticks so good that I could lift the entire engine with engine stand!
I have spayed some WD40 around the seam, but I will create a "puller". Mounted to the rocker arm bolts and using the top of the loose head bolt to push up against.

I have just quickly tried using a long pry bar but I fear of breaking a piece off.


 
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #170 on: September 18, 2017, 02:23:40 AM »
Now, I am "stuck" with two stuck heads. I tried lifting the head off with the engine hoist, but the gasket sticks so good that I could lift the entire engine with engine stand!
I have spayed some WD40 around the seam, but I will create a "puller". Mounted to the rocker arm bolts and using the top of the loose head bolt to push up against.   I have just quickly tried using a long pry bar but I fear of breaking a piece off.
Boy, they shouldn't be that bad.

I use a screw driver and drive it between the surface of the block and head, and simply drive them apart.

Drive from the top down.   This way you are "wedging" the head off.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline savemy67

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #171 on: September 18, 2017, 10:07:30 PM »
Hello Nicolas,

Before you use your puller, double check that you have removed all the head bolts.  I understand that corrosion can "glue" parts together, but I have never heard of a cylinder head stuck to a block such that you could pick up the block and stand by the head given the condition of the engine I see in the photos.

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Offline DeVille68

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #172 on: September 19, 2017, 01:49:01 AM »
Hi y'all

The heads are off now!  :)
Thanks Bruce for suggesting the use of a screw driver. I could drive it in from the top on the front. Then with a second screwdriver I had to just drive it in to the middle and the head popped off.
See picture 22 and 23 below.

I found the reason for the clunking sound when I would change gear from D to R - the upper right engine mount screw was a bit too loose! :-|
I have ordered new engine mounts, because the rubber has some cracks in it.

I also found why the engine has less power than I would have expected - well someone installed the 500cid 71 to 73 "Soapdish" pistons  giving about 8.5:1 instead of the 68/69 472 "Squashed Peanut" pistons giving about 10.25:1 compression ratio. See picture 24 below.

I am going to replace all the pistons with the genuine 68 version.

The pistons look otherwise not too bad. The wrist pin of piston 8 and 7 had a pit more friction than the other ones. Connecting rod bearing 8 failed, so maybe the rod got a little hot. I don't know. Or maybe this was from the beginning like that.

I also removed the water pump, which looks good. No need for replacement. See picture 30.

It was strange that I could just remove the crank pulley and balancer with my bare hands - no puller required?!  :o
Picture 32.   Wrong pulley and balancer? I will buy a new balancer - anybody heard from the company http://www.damperdoctor.com/
Recommendable? They list a damper for my engine.


Disassembly will continue!  :)




« Last Edit: September 19, 2017, 01:52:55 AM by DeVille68 »
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline Jeepers Creepers

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #173 on: September 19, 2017, 01:32:14 PM »
Good on ya..... look forward to when its running again.
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Tin Can Bay,
Australia
1st time Cadillac owners.
64 Fleetwood.

Offline DeVille68

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #174 on: September 22, 2017, 02:36:38 AM »
My parallel project "rebuilding the suspension" is coming along as well. I have removed the front upper and lower A-Arms. I was not able to separate the balljoints, so I had to remove the complete wheel assembly.
I removed the shock and moved a jack stand under the lower A-Arm. Removed the bolt of the lower A-Arm and let the jack down to release the spring pressure. I then supported the drum with an jack stand and removed the two bolts of the upper A-Arm.

Luckily, no bolt was stuck.
However, the lower balljoint did not want to separate, so now I cut it off. Have to figure out a way to remove the stuck bolt from the steering knuckle.

1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline savemy67

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #175 on: September 22, 2017, 07:53:13 PM »
Hello Nicolas,

Fortunately, I have never had a taper joint that could not be separated using two hammers to simultaneously strike the eye of the knuckle in which the taper joint was fitted.  The coil spring pressure aids in getting the joint to separate.  Since your knuckle and spring are separated, you might want to get a socket that is large enough to be placed over the cut-off end of the ball joint taper such that it will contact the eye of the knuckle.  Get a large (150 millimeter or larger) C-clamp and put one end on the end of the socket, and the other end on the castle nut (which should be almost fully threaded on the ball joint), and tighten the C-clamp securely.  Using two hammers of 1 kilo or greater weight, simultaneously strike the eye of the knuckle on opposite sides (one hammer on each side of the eye). or stabilize the eye of the knuckle on an anvil or rail and use one hammer against the eye on the side opposite the anvil or rail.  When the joint "pops", the cut-off end of the taper will fall into the recess of the socket.  I have never failed to remove a tapered joint using this method.

The physics is such that the opposing hammer blows temporarily distort the perfectly round cross section of the taper on the inside of the eye, allowing the pressure on the ball joint from the spring or C-clamp to free the ball joint.  Since the knuckle and the ball joint are made of steel, which is one of the most elastic materials known, no damage is done to either part.  Because the steels are different, the reaction each has to the hammer blows is just enough to free the joint.

Respectfully submitted,
Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Offline DeVille68

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #176 on: October 07, 2017, 03:12:51 PM »
Thanks Christopher for your advice.
As any puller would slip of from the upper ball joint eye, I needed another solution and finally found a M26 threaded bar that I cut to length. I shaped to lower end such that the bar would make the most contact on top of the ball joint stud and nut. Then I used a thick scrap metal and a large M26 nut to put pressure on the stud.
Then I just had to strike the eye with an 1kg hammer and the ball joint stud would pop out as predicted by Christopher.
(see picture below).

Next task was to press out the lower A-arm bearing. Well, my little press did not have enough travel, so my beginner welding skills needed to come into play. I extended my press with a few square profile bars. Now I can even press out the upper A-arm bushings.
But time has run out, so those things will be done in a few weeks.

Best regards,
Nicolas
« Last Edit: October 07, 2017, 03:14:42 PM by DeVille68 »
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #177 on: October 07, 2017, 06:05:24 PM »
Congratulations on your ingenious way of removing the ball joint.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)