Author Topic: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC  (Read 2851 times)

Offline cadillacmike68

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Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« on: May 06, 2017, 05:00:43 PM »
Ok, I have one or more bearings that have either spun out or are about to in my 1968 DeVille Convertible. 472 CI, overhauled in 2005. I had to have it towed home to avoid risking a complete catastrophe.   >:(

What's more likely to have failed, rod or main bearings?

Now, what brand of bearings should I use when getting them replaced? And is there a way to tell if the existing bearings are standard size or .010 over. It was overhauled in 2005 and I can't remember if the crankshaft journals were turned down or not.

To speed things up, I'm thinking of getting a set of standard and .010 over and returning the set that doesn't fit.

Might as well have the front and rear seals and the oil pump gasket all replaced at the same time. And, possibly have the radiator re-cored to a more efficient core while it is out.

Thanks in advance for any help.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadman56

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2017, 05:19:25 PM »
Every set of bearings I have replaced had a size stamped on the back side of the bearing shell, regardless of brand.
Are you planning of just replacing the bearings with the engine in the car?
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2017, 05:38:56 PM »
Yes, I do not think the engine should have to come out. At least not according to the shop manual.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline TJ Hopland

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2017, 06:02:55 PM »
Any idea what caused the issue?

Have you done bearings in a car before?   Even on a beater where you really don't care if its 'right' its a lot of messy work and there is always access issues where you can't see things or use the proper tools and procedures so the results are usually not the best.

If you spun a bearing the crank will need at least some clean up if not a full on machine job.   I would also question the original setup, perhaps the clearances were not correct to start with or the caps got messed up?   
   
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75 Eldo rusty but trusty
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Offline Dave Shepherd

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2017, 06:23:23 PM »
Agreed, any damage to the crank will require pulling the engine, big issue here is what is the root cause.

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2017, 06:32:27 PM »
Boy, I have never heard of anyone being able to diagnose a spun bearing without pulling the engine out.   A spun bearing can be a result of a seizure, and the bearing locating lugs letting go within the bearing cap/base, and simply rotating without lubrication, and burning the metal, after melting off the actual soft part of the bearing shell.

Now, as for repair, the Engine will definitely have to come out, and in a lot of cases, a Crankshaft that has experienced a spun bearing, will have to be replaced as it could be bent or even cracked.   In the case of a connecting rod bearing, the rod will need to be replaced, and in the event of it being a main bearing, possible block replacement.

Not to mention the internal cleaning out that will need to be done

Bruce. >:D

'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
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Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2017, 06:39:00 PM »
The engine was overhauled in 2005. The cause, unknown at present, but probably getting too hot too many times. Lower probability is improper installation back in 2005, Another (low) possibility is a bad bearing to begin with. I had a bad wheel bearing cause a melted front axle back in 2006. That took 1 year to manifest itself.

I don't have the knowledge, tools or facilities to do this myself. so it will have to be done at a local shop.

I'd still like some suggestions on bearing brands to get.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2017, 06:45:28 PM »
It might not be the brand that is best, but where they source the parts that go into the boxes with the brand name on them these days.

Federal Mogul and Michigan 77 are good, but as I haven't purchased many for years, I cannot advise further.

But, in all cases, it is the fitting and clearances that are the causes of bearing life, plus good oil supply.   The best bearings will fail if not fitted correctly.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline bcroe

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2017, 07:39:05 PM »
From my own experience, I'd much rather have a good used engine, than a
just rebuilt one.  Bruce Roe

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2017, 07:54:00 PM »
From my own experience, I'd much rather have a good used engine, than a
just rebuilt one.  Bruce Roe

Bruce, it is the original engine and I'm going to keep it. The car still has, going from front to back, the original radiator tanks, all the original cast iron except for the water pump, the original transmission, drive shaft and complete rear axle assembly including control arms.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline 35-709

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2017, 08:05:37 PM »
MTS (Maximum Torque Specialties) --- www.500cid.com --- will have a complete overhaul kit or any individual parts you need for your engine.  They are specialists in the 472/500/425 building business.  If it were mine I would pull it and ship it to them, shipping is not that bad and you will be getting the best, IMO.  They supplied the overhaul parts for my '71 472 in Big Red and did the complete overhaul on the '73 472 in my (now sold) Caribou.  They will build you a stocker or anything from mild to wild, a call to them can't hurt.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 08:08:37 PM by 35-709 »
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Offline Scot Minesinger

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2017, 08:07:27 PM »
Mike,

Call MTS in CA on Monday, as they are the expert on this 472/500/425/368 engine.  I have purchase parts form them and this is all they do.  Tell them the parts you want and they will recommend a choice of brands depending upon your situation.

To me Bruce is right, the engine needs to be pulled to be sure what went wrong and whatever caused it is cured.  How did you determine/diagnose the problem?  If engine got too hot too many times, suggest the 4 row radiator core and the commercial chassis radiator fan. 

With engine out of car by you , and you taking it to a shop, then you can clean up if needed, the engine bay and finish any of those might as wells.  Leaving it with no engine in your garage could be better than taking it to a shop because they may keep it outside for three weeks. 
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
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Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2017, 08:40:21 PM »
I've been looking at MTS (500cid.com).  I'll probably get what I need from them.

There is No need to ship the engine across the country for some bearing work. It was completely gone through in 2005. The car gets up to 100 or higher easily, I had at 75 last week.  However, after reading, I agree that the engine might need to be pulled. I'll have to rent a hoist to do it or have a shop do it.

That said, I'm pretty sure that even the crank can be removed with the engine still in the car. PPs 6-104 & 6-105 confirm this, although the transmission has to be separated. That's much easier than taking the engine out. 

It will be a condition of my bringing it anywhere that it be kept Inside at all times while being worked on. And it shouldn't be that long if I order the bearing sets, gaskets, etc. ahead of time.

As for why it happened, I still think it was most likely being ran too hot too many times. I've posted about the car getting hot while stuck in traffic here in FL. I already have a 4 core in it, but the radiator shop mentioned a higher efficiency cooler, and I will noy install a transmission cooler as well. I guess one time too many. We'll find out.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2017, 08:54:44 PM »
The only reason bearings will fail is:
(1)   Lack of Lubrication.
(2)   Clearances too tight.
(3)   Oil too thick, or too thin.

It is all about preparation, and maintenance.

Bearings spin simply because the crankshaft journal tries to hold onto the bearing shell and it then comes loose inside the cap.   By the time the engine is turned off, the damage has been done.

Over-revving also creates problems, but it is usually the overheatingthat expands the pistons within the bore, and tightens them up, and the crankshaft is trying to pull the pistons down, and push them up, and this in itself strains the Rod Bearings.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline bcroe

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Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2017, 09:20:40 PM »
Pulling an engine for serious work will avoid a lot of frustration, dirt, and
skin knocked off.  May not take any longer either. 

If the problem seems to be about overheating, you might want to change
to synthetic oil, with much better high temp tolerance.  There are some
nearly custom built radiators available with extra capacity, compared to
a lot of imported "reduced tubes & fins"  stuff.  Mine cost the better part
of a kilobuck, worth it.  Of course a good temp gauge is essential.  A trans
or oil cooler cooler will get rid of some more heat.  Clutching fans, shrouds,
and overflow bottles need to be in good order.  Most of my 60s cars had to
be upgraded to 70s standards so I could keep driving them in all conditions
trouble free.

One car here got a couple electric fans in front of the radiator, which were
only used for hot, slow traffic conditions.  Bruce Roe

Offline Jeff Rose CLC #28373

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #15 on: May 06, 2017, 10:38:29 PM »
I saw the question asked, but did not see an answer. How did you diagnose a spun bearing? Sorry if i missed the answer.

I know you say there is no need to pull the engine because it was completely gone thru in 2005........ however the engine failed.
Don't forget, these cars sat in traffic when they were new and didn't break. Something is going on in there.
At a minimum you need to strain your oil thu a piece of cheesecloth and cut open the filter to check for metal.
If the engine spun a bearing, it is making metal. There is absolutely no way you can get all the metal out of the engine with it still in the car. If 1 piece of metal is blocking 1 passage, you end up doing this again. If there are microscopic pieces of metal in there, it gets under a bearing and acts like sandpaper-and you do this again. If a piece of metal jams the oil pump pressure bypass open you have low oil pressure-and you do this again.

Now, I am by no means an expert. However I managed to pull the engine out of my 70. It really isn't that bad of a job, and I would do it again.

I tend to be blunt at times so no offence/frustration intended.
Jeff
Jeff
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1970 Coupe DeVille
1955 Series 62

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #16 on: May 06, 2017, 11:41:17 PM »
Spun bearings happen very quickly.

This engine damage happened during a race, and by the time it was turned off, it was too late.

The second picture shows the heat required to discolour the connecting rod, but just before it turned into the first picture, or the last one.   At least in this case, the $4,500.00 billet crankshaft was salvageable, for street use.   

Bruce. >:D

PS.  I didn't build the engine, but got some very nice parts to build for a future project.
« Last Edit: May 06, 2017, 11:47:29 PM by The Tassie Devil(le) »
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2017, 12:56:30 AM »
I'm pretty sure it's a bearing problem because there is a LOUD metal on metal rapping sound coming from the block. It runs smoothly except for this rapping. I'm almost certain it's a bearing(s). Not sure if its spun out, but I'm not running it more to find out, except to get it out of the garage and onto a tow truck.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Bobby B

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2017, 01:09:28 AM »
Mike,
 You're fooling yourself if you think it's just a spun bearing. Like others pointed out here, there's more going on. Spun bearings are usually due to the reasons Bruce stated above. Lack of Lubrication, running at high speeds while low on oil, faulty oil pump, lack of pressure/oil starvation due to excessive clearances on a rebuild, crank not true or was never checked uring assembly, bearings just slapped in there out of the box without checking, etc, etc., etc. There are rebuilds, and then there are rebuilds, and it has nothing to do with the price. One little overlooked step in the rebuild most likely got you where you are now. Motor needs to come out and some detective work is needed. I've never seen any good come out of replacing one internal part in an engine without digging deeper into the cause.
                                                                                                 Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Offline Scot Minesinger

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2017, 08:10:15 AM »
Mike,

Engine crane - back around 2010 I bought one that folds up (only way to go), and an engine stand (you will need both).  IT was surprisingly affordable, the crane was under $225 and the stand was under $100.  Be sure and get the dimensions, because my crane just barely had a long enough boom, and our cars are similar in dimension. 

Also, your one post mentioned something about a trans cooler, make sure that is operational, as heat is a huge enemy to the trans.

My red 1970 DVC engine was rebuilt just before I bought in 2005, and have driven it over 40k miles since then.  The car was parked back in early 2000's because head were bad then it was purchased and restored including engine rebuild by the owner who sold it to me.  I had all the receipts.  It was done by a very reputable machine shop here in the area (yes I write how terrible they all can be), and their boring and engine work is well respected.  However, since heads were cracked they were replaced with used and no valve job and the carb was not done correctly.  Eventually I had to do the valve job, and the carb had to be rebuilt in a few weeks.  Any history or receipts you can dig up may give you some clue to help diagnose this problem.

BTW 75 mph is nothing for these cars and was routine driving back in 1970 and for me today (speed limit 70mph).  There is a tach in my Caddy hidden in glove box and with a 2.93 rear diff, 70 mph is in the mid 2000 rpm as I remember.  Engine damage should not have resulted due to highway travel.  Fastest I traveled was 90 mph in a caravan of cars in NC traveling on 95 N from the 2007 GN in GA.  While it was not any big deal the gas mileage of 14mpg driving normal 70mph, dropped to about 8 mpg.  Made great time though.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty