Author Topic: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC  (Read 2890 times)

Offline Dan LeBlanc

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #40 on: May 10, 2017, 06:44:21 AM »
Are you sure your recently replaced starter is not making contact with the flywheel somehow while the engine is running?  Might not hurt to pull it and take a look!

How about sending off an oil sample for analysis to see if there is bearing material in the oil?
Dan LeBlanc - CLC # 27657
1970 DeVille Convertible
1977 Continental Town Car

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #41 on: May 10, 2017, 02:18:22 PM »
Are you sure your recently replaced starter is not making contact with the flywheel somehow while the engine is running?  Might not hurt to pull it and take a look!

How about sending off an oil sample for analysis to see if there is bearing material in the oil?

I will check that tonight or tomorrow, but I highly doubt it.

I'm looking at a  engine pull and tear down...
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Jeff Rose CLC #28373

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #42 on: May 10, 2017, 02:56:54 PM »
Have you thought about turning the engine by hand to see if you are able to determine where the noise may be coming from or if there is a spot that hangs up?
Shouldn't hurt anything to turn by hand. You are planning on a teardown anyway.
Jeff
Jeff
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille
1955 Series 62

Offline chrisntam

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2017, 04:12:43 PM »
This is how I remember it.....
1970 Deville Convertible  MTS 507
Dallas, Texas

Offline 35-709

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2017, 06:34:52 PM »
Yup, thass it.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod

Offline Dan LeBlanc

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #45 on: May 10, 2017, 07:13:25 PM »
I will check that tonight or tomorrow, but I highly doubt it.

I'm looking at a  engine pull and tear down...

Maybe you'll get lucky. My first car was a midsize Ford LTD that the flywheel cracked on and was hitting the bell housing and starter. My dad and I were convinced the bottom end of the engine was coming apart from all the noise. We pulled the engine from the parts car and brought it for the swap. When the mechanic unfolded the transmission to take the engine out, he found the flywheel hanging on by the thread. 2 hours later the car was back on the road.

Start simple first. Since this was the last area touched on your car and can make and similar sound, I'm hoping you get lucky and that's all it is.
Dan LeBlanc - CLC # 27657
1970 DeVille Convertible
1977 Continental Town Car

Offline Dan LeBlanc

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #46 on: May 10, 2017, 07:14:23 PM »
This is how I remember it.....

Oooh. Nice and shiny. It's a work of art.
Dan LeBlanc - CLC # 27657
1970 DeVille Convertible
1977 Continental Town Car

Offline Carl Fielding

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #47 on: May 11, 2017, 12:29:57 AM »

Flywheel ? Hmmmmm......... Cracked flex plate ? "Cadillac" , you need an expert diagnosis or two before ripping things apart based on assumption. Ever noticed how assumptions can lead to trouble ? You have got some very good advice here. You will feel like a Jerkus Maximus if you assume the worst , act on it , and find out it was something else/simple. I hope it does not involve major surgery , but , hey : if so , please consider having MTS make a more modern mill out of that too high compression anachronism. Decompress/cam it for 91 octane "moonshine". Then you can drive it as you like it without risking breaking it.  - Cadillac

Offline cadman56

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #48 on: June 06, 2017, 06:39:34 PM »
Any updates on this topic?  Thanks.
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Offline Gene Beaird

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #49 on: June 08, 2017, 03:32:14 PM »
Maybe you'll get lucky. My first car was a midsize Ford LTD that the flywheel cracked on and was hitting the bell housing and starter. <SNIP>

^^This!  Cadillacs are notorious for cracking the flexplate, ESPECIALLY replacement flexplates!!  If the flywheel was replaced, or might have been replaced, when the engine was rebuilt, I'd pull the torque converter cover and start checking the flywheel for cracks.  A cracked flywheel can make a nasty racket. 

Good luck. 
Gene Beaird,
1968 Calais
1979 Seville
Pearland, Texas
CLC Member No. 29873

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2017, 04:49:13 PM »
It was a nearly worn out rod bearing. More on it later when I get around to "the rest of the story" You guys will not believe this.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Jeff Rose CLC #28373

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2017, 05:39:12 PM »
Enlighten us.....
And, with what caused my rebuild and the issues after, I will believe anything.
Jeff
Jeff
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille
1955 Series 62

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2017, 06:07:47 PM »
Not unbelievable, just very unfathomable. Maybe this weekend i'll be putting up the info and pictures. I need to get a better picture of the rod journal for # 6 first.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2017, 07:08:16 PM »
OK, here's what we found and why it happened.

First, I need to remind everyone that here in Florida, it's ALWAYS hot AND humid. When people ask about the weather I tell them that is 90-95F nearly Every day with very high humidity. And except for a few weeks in Jan-Feb, that's pretty much true.

I had the engine overhauled in spring 2005, and had the front brakes converted to disc. The right side either had a defective bearing or an improperly lubricated bearing, because it melted the axle on the way back from Old town in late April 2006. The axle actually broke and the only thing holding everything together was the caliper backing plate.

I decided to have to car's body fully stripped, all the rust taken out, repainted, etc, since I was going back to the desert the following month. I kept getting re-deployed and the car took some 6 years to get completed. I finally got it back one week before the GN in St Augustine in 2012. (and I went back to the desert the following month). During that time the car moved around the shop but I don't think it ever got fully up to operating temp. I don't know if that caused what happened or not but it might have.

After I got back in2013 I went about re-repairing things that went bad from 2006-13, but I never could get to run cool in heavy traffic. I've posted about this before, no need to bring it up here, except to state that at times the gauge was up over 3/4, but the buzzer never went off.

Then I got the machine gun sound (it really did sound like that, and I think I can post a wav file once I strip it off the 32MB video I took) in May and basically didn't do anything until late Aug. I checked the top side, all ok, bo loose bolts in intake , heads or exhaust, so it had to be internal.

Well, this is what the bottom of the intake looked like when they got it apart:
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2017, 07:10:25 PM »
That's not oil, but rust beads (with some oil).

Here's the intake manifold gasket:

The shop owner told me that the rear rubber sealer strip was pretty much disintegrated from heat, etc.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2017, 07:14:12 PM »
You did notice the nice fist sized hole in the cookie sheet, didn't you?

Well all that "stuff" had to go somewhere and it went right down into the inside of the block. Here is a pic of the pickup tube, AFTER it was most of the way cleaned up:

I will finish cleaning and will re-use this pickup, because it is not damaged.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2017, 07:18:55 PM »
I have never seen an intake pan as damaged as that one.   But, would have to do with the engine use as stated, not getting sufficiently warm enough to boil off any condensation that accumulated.

As it rusted away, the corrosion would have become lodged in the oil filter, until the large piece fell off.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2017, 07:31:35 PM »
Evidently a lot of that "stuff" got past the screen (it's not that fine grained of a screen) and probably tore through the paper elements of the filter. 

Here is the result on the crankshaft and the rod bearings:

Notice the spun out bearing is almost paper thin.

Amazingly the adjacent rod for # 5 is OK, and all the pistons are OK except for #6 which "mushroomed" at the top from hitting the head (very tight tolerances in this engine).

The crank is actually re-build-able using thermal laser welding, which I will do, but I bought one from RocklAuto (I think I got the LAST crank available for this engine). I will have it locally rebuilt and polished to .020 under. I can't have it done to .010, because even the other journals are scored slightly. I could done to original size, but it would be VERY expensive because All the journals would have to be thermal laser welded.

The heads are fine, as is the camshaft and everything else. Very little carbon, mostly on the piston sides between the compression rings and the oil control ring. The oil pan was clean - no sludge. The upper valves and rockers were very clean as well. I got the rods re-conditioned and bought a set of 8 rods, I also got new ARP rod bolts, main bearing studs and head studs for re-assembly.  Valve guide seals were shot, but the FelPro full gasket kit comes with 16 quality seals.

The heads are done, waiting on that one replacement piston and then it can be re-assembled.  I have 6 cans of the Hirsch dark blue engine paint.

The intake is getting ceramic / powder coated on the bottom and we'll spray the top of the intake gasket cookie sheet with that copper spray to prevent this from happening again. The shop is going to use hi-temp silicone sealant of the ends of the intake gasket to prevent a seal failure in the future.

I'm also putting  a 70s 7 blade no clutch fan in and am having a more efficient core put in the radiator. I'm getting the Derale TH400 ventilated transmission pan and a Derale stacked plate transmission oil cooler (and possibly an engine oil cooler as well) to try to keep things cooler.

I replaced a couple of worn out fuel and transmission lines as well as well as the motor mounts and upper control arm bushings.

It should run and drive very nice when its finished.

The good news is (as if there is any good news in this) is that it will cost less than replacing my fence which hurricane Irma blew down!?!?!

So now you have "the Rest of the story!"


« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 07:35:49 PM by cadillacmike68 »
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2017, 07:33:40 PM »
I have never seen an intake pan as damaged as that one.   But, would have to do with the engine use as stated, not getting sufficiently warm enough to boil off any condensation that accumulated.

As it rusted away, the corrosion would have become lodged in the oil filter, until the large piece fell off.

Bruce. >:D

I'm going to bring it as a show and tell to my next regional meeting in Oct .  :P
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Bobby B

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2017, 07:56:12 PM »
Regardless of how it happened, it looks like there was so much debris in the bottom of the pan that it clogged the pick-up and starved the bearings of oil. I doubt the rebuild was bad. More like, what happened to the intake manifold valley area (pan), that caused it to disintegrate like that   :-\ :-\ :-\......

                                                                                                                                                               Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH