Author Topic: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC  (Read 2852 times)

Offline chrisntam

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #60 on: October 01, 2017, 08:41:10 PM »
Yeah, what was the cause of the hole in the valley pan?

It looks like it rusted/deteriorated?  It's aluminum right?  It shouldn't rust.

Is it because the motor was run for short periods and not fully warmed up and condensation formed?
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 08:44:27 PM by chrisntam »
1970 Deville Convertible  MTS 507
Dallas, Texas

Offline TJ Hopland

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #61 on: October 01, 2017, 09:09:40 PM »
The fel pro gasket/pans I have dealt with are more steel like than aluminum.

Interesting story / chain of events / luck .......    I have had similar but not quite that bad of experiences.   Drove my 73 for many years and miles with little more than a tune up.   Decided it was time to do things right and spent a lot of time and money.   Not sure if I am really better off now or not.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #62 on: October 01, 2017, 09:23:48 PM »
Yeah, what was the cause of the hole in the valley pan?

It looks like it rusted/deteriorated?  It's aluminum right?  It shouldn't rust.

Is it because the motor was run for short periods and not fully warmed up and condensation formed?

The cause was that somehow moisture got into the area between the bottom of the intake manifold and the intake manifold gasket (valley pan / cookie sheet, whatever you want to call it). That moisture condensed on the bottom of the intake manifold and eventually caused it to rust (look at the photos at the top of today's posts). That rust and / or some too high heat burned a BIG hole in the intake manifold gasket, and all that junk went straight into the engine.

If the engine was starved of oil I'd have some severe wear on the valves and cylinder walls - not so. And all the crank journals would have been worn thin. Bits of metallic grit got past the oil filter and ate up the #6 rod bearing and journal. All the other journals have marks but none are worn like that one. I'll post a couple more pics of the crank when I get it from the shop. I have to wait for the new one to get installed so it can go in the box. The thing weighs over 83 pounds, and I'm not 25 yrs old anymore...
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline chrisntam

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #63 on: October 01, 2017, 09:33:48 PM »
snip....
 The thing weighs over 83 pounds, and I'm not 25 yrs old anymore...

+1

It's not as easy as it once was or as easy as I remember it being....
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 09:36:16 PM by chrisntam »
1970 Deville Convertible  MTS 507
Dallas, Texas

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #64 on: October 01, 2017, 09:55:35 PM »
The cause of spun bearings is simply clearances being too tight, and the oil "Grabbing" the thing that can slip the easiest, and that is the bearing shells, and the rest is history.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #65 on: October 01, 2017, 11:04:48 PM »
Mike,
I would look VERY carefully at the surfaces of the intake manifold and the cylinder heads at the intake mounting surface.  I would also look for cracks in the intake. Something is leaking to allow water to get in.  In a couple of the photos it looks like ths same "goo" that you show under the intake is also in the center two ports of the manifold.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline Jeff Rose CLC #28373

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #66 on: October 02, 2017, 08:03:45 AM »
Well,
Your engine story beats my engine story.
Great find and thanks for the info.
Jeff
Jeff
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille
1955 Series 62

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #67 on: October 02, 2017, 11:03:08 AM »
Mike,
I would look VERY carefully at the surfaces of the intake manifold and the cylinder heads at the intake mounting surface.  I would also look for cracks in the intake. Something is leaking to allow water to get in.  In a couple of the photos it looks like ths same "goo" that you show under the intake is also in the center two ports of the manifold.
Greg Surfas

Greg, the heads are fine. The intake is being cleaned and coated. The rubber end seals are what failed. We're using silicone now.  The center two ports are exhaust crossover. Those can get moisture from running the engine and not getting up to full temp, but there was no evidence of any gasket failure between any ports.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline TJ Hopland

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #68 on: October 02, 2017, 11:29:56 AM »
So the theory is that water somehow ran down the 'failed' rubber ends of the intake and pooled in the intake pan/gasket?    Where did the water come from?   There isn't a coolant passage in these intakes like many other engines have. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #69 on: October 02, 2017, 12:18:17 PM »
So the theory is that water somehow ran down the 'failed' rubber ends of the intake and pooled in the intake pan/gasket?    Where did the water come from?   There isn't a coolant passage in these intakes like many other engines have.

Not water - moisture in the air. Read my initial post from yesterday.

Florida

90-95F every day

90% or higher humidity every day

If the seals went bad, then over time (6-12 years) this could definitely happen, and it did.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2017, 12:19:52 PM by cadillacmike68 »
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadman56

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #70 on: October 02, 2017, 03:58:07 PM »
So sorry to hear this.  I would be interested to know if you cut the oil filter apart? 
I once had a fresh rebuild drop a valve seat and before I could turn the engine off it scattered throughout.  Total loss.
Best of luck to you.   Sounds like you are on the road to fixing several things tool  Larry
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #71 on: October 02, 2017, 08:32:27 PM »
So sorry to hear this.  I would be interested to know if you cut the oil filter apart? 
I once had a fresh rebuild drop a valve seat and before I could turn the engine off it scattered throughout.  Total loss.
Best of luck to you.   Sounds like you are on the road to fixing several things tool  Larry

It's been 12 years, probably 10-15 oil changes in that time. I don't know when the hole was made in the intake gasket. By the time we drained the oil this time the damage had been done. I will however, try to inspect the oil filter if it hasn't been tossed.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #72 on: October 03, 2017, 06:52:39 PM »
Waiting on 1 piston (# 6 of course, it mushroomed against the head). and it might get re-assembled this week.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #73 on: October 03, 2017, 10:17:58 PM »
Mike,
With all due respects, if the china rail (end seals) were leaking that badly to allow enough moisture to get in to "rust" the tin gaskety, once the hole had developed at all, there would have been enough of a vacuum leak and oil blowing out of the engine that you would have immediately noticed it.  Not doubting your expertise, but I personally would look further for a cause.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #74 on: October 04, 2017, 09:53:59 PM »
Mike,
With all due respects, if the china rail (end seals) were leaking that badly to allow enough moisture to get in to "rust" the tin gaskety, once the hole had developed at all, there would have been enough of a vacuum leak and oil blowing out of the engine that you would have immediately noticed it.  Not doubting your expertise, but I personally would look further for a cause.
Greg Surfas

Greg,

It didn't rust the intake manifold gasket, it rusted the bottom of the intake manifold itself. That was unpainted and any condensation in that area will form droplets on the (eventually) cold intake where it will oxidize, that is, start the formation of rust. Those rust droplets then fell onto the intake gasket which eventually rusted through, probably small at the beginning but getting progressively worse until it was a large hole. This probably took years. and yes it didn't idle super smoothly the last few years, and there was always a little oil outside the block, but most would have stayed inside and just dropped back down into the engine (along with the rust particles!). It would have to be aimed directly at the gap to get out.

There would be No vacuum leak because there is no engine vacuum in that area. The parts of of the gasket that mate the ports was fine, it was the bottom that rusted away.
 
That might not even be an airtight seal between the front and rear of the intake and the gasket. I'll have to look at it before its assembled this time to make sure that there is no air gap at either end.

Take any unpainted cast iron engine part, stick it outside here in FL, even left under a tarp or shade where it won't get directly rained on and you will see oxidation very soon and if you heat it up once a while and let it cool, you'll get the same result; rust formation.

« Last Edit: October 05, 2017, 04:30:11 PM by cadillacmike68 »
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #75 on: October 11, 2017, 03:54:38 PM »
I should ha ve an update tomorrow on how the rebuild is going. All the parts should be in and the engine should be getting re-assembled.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #76 on: October 28, 2017, 10:50:12 PM »
The engine is finally back together. I still have to clean out the engine bay with some de-greaser before it can be re-installed.

Here are a few pics of the Intake after it was ceramic coated top and bottom (with part of the newly ceramic coated exhaust manifold in one pic), the VIN proving that it is the ORIGINAL engine block, and 2 pics of the engine after I finished painting it earlier today.

The crank company shipped the WRONG rod bearings!  (not even close)?#%^@#%#@$!$%@ and ARP put too small washers in the head studs kit I bought!?!?! At least they overnight-ed the correct washers so it could be re-assembled on Friday.

Some more cleanup, painting the Derale vented trans pan and replacing the right side blinker housing and then they can get the all paint nicks out and I might have my car back.


Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline DeVille68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #77 on: October 29, 2017, 05:13:28 AM »
Nice, what type of pistons do you use?
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline chrisntam

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #78 on: October 29, 2017, 05:53:00 AM »
Looks great, great progress.

You will enjoy the ceramic coated exhaust.

If you're going to tee off the oil pressure line to run gauge, now is a good time to plumb it.

Keep us updated!
1970 Deville Convertible  MTS 507
Dallas, Texas

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #79 on: October 29, 2017, 10:03:21 AM »
Nicolas, We used Keith Black 10:1  back in 2005. seven were still good, only the one which must have hit the head needed replacement.


Chris, I'll talk with the shop regarding this. What would be involved?


I also need to paint the fan spacer once we figure out which is the correct size to use, and now would be a good time to stop the fuel drain from the float bowl which makes for extended cranking sessions after 3-4 days of sitting.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible