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Looking to the future of classic cars.

Started by e.mason, October 01, 2017, 06:28:27 PM

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Lexi

#60
Yes, as I said in one of my earlier posts how many of us drive horse drawn carriages? What we are witnessing is the natural evolution of things as the paradigm of those inclined to collect (and have the ability to indulge) fades with the passage of time as that group passes on. What is perhaps interesting is how spirited this discussion has become. Classic/Antique car collecting is a relatively new endeavour, as cars have not been around as long as other collectibles such as oil paintings for example. The... 'hobby'... (as the term denotes)... has generally speaking, yet to evolve to the point where other more well established art forms and collecting have, though amidst this add the chaos of a changing technological world and ecological factors which negatively impact the classic car world. So there is a certain degree of 'shock' to the car community as they wrestle with these issues; which collectors in other collecting genres have previously experienced for decades. We are all going through the system and this is a cyclic phenomenon. So get out and enjoy your cars and share them with all who take an interest in the hope that they may one day carry the torch so to speak-and keep interest in classic automobiles alive. History has a habit of repeating itself, (as human nature is relatively static), so the day will come when only a scant few of the very best examples of our cars will exist (and be on display in museums). All is fleeting. Clay/Lexi

64\/54Cadillacking

Geographical locations matters heavily on determining the future of the hobby is a valid concern.

Living in CA, the mecca of the classic car universe, is becoming threatened by the extremely outrageous high cost of living as home prices are skewed towards the rich and upper middle class. Owning a classic in Texas is much more attainable and affordable than owning one in CA because the taxes are much higher here, emission smog regulations on cars 76 and up truly discourage buying late 70’s on up anything and the prices many owners are trying to sell their classic for is inflated. People out here try to sell project junk cars for insane money, everyone acts like their oldie is gold.

Car prices for old school Cads and the likes are dirt cheap elsewhere. The bargains are to be had in other states, but not here by any means. Some buyers are firm on their asking price and won’t budge no matter how long it sits on the market.

So it really depends on where you live, how the state government is, cost of living factors and the amount of room you have to store your cars.

Many of CA biggest cities are way overcrowded, more and more young people are being crammed into tiny condos and apartments with hardly any parking or storages because that’s all they can afford.

So it’s becoming very difficult for people in general to own a classic that live on the West Coast.

The ones that live in the mid-west and south with all that empty space and homes with acres of land got it made! Big city folks with the lack of space is where you rarely see an oldie cruising around, its when you get into the suburbs and more so, rural areas and small towns are where the majority of classic car owners live.

This same aspect can be said about classic car ownership in Europe. But we all know, it’s very expensive to own a classic car in certain countries. The amount of regulations are insane!

But head to Australia, New Zealand, Netherlands, Sweden, Austria, for whatever reasons, the interest in old classic Cadillacs is sky high. They love and appreciate our cars, and are willing to buy them at high prices just because they are so rare in their homeland, while many Americans have lost interest and could care less.

So I just want say thank you to all the Cadillac collectors and enthusiasts from around the globe that truly appreciate what the brand used to build and how amazing they used to be. You see light, while so many others don’t. We truly are a unique group, that many don’t understand and never will.


Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Lexi

#62
In an earlier post, 64CaddieLacky identified himself as a millennial. Reading his comments it is clear that he is one of the 'chosen few', gifted with foresight often lacking among his generation. Back in the 1960s and early 1970s when I pondered purchasing my first classic car I ran into the problem he so aptly described. Space. Where do you park a car the size of a whale, especially if you don't own real estate? I also had spotty employment as I was just a kid starting out trying save a buck. Today's youth arguably face increasing pressures in the job market as well as living arrangements. While some may flirt with the idea of owning a classic car, if you can't park it (let alone afford the purchase or upkeep), you can't seriously consider buying. You are not in a position to 'indulge' in this luxury, as I have put it. Been there some 50 years ago. History repeating itself. This has been an ongoing situation, partly reflective of some of the obstacles facing those in the 'hobby'. Cripes, there reportedly are more middle aged people now having to move back home for various reasons. They presumably will also be tough candidates to enter the classic car world as well. They have other priorities to wrestle with. Many of my earlier comments touched on these and other trends, though with projection into the more distant future. Looking further down the road and comparing what has happened in other genres of collecting, I still maintain the future is bleak. The eco-friendly laws are indeed another factor and may prove to be a 'wild card' as in any given jurisdiction the 'hobby' could be largely nullified with the stroke of a pen. As my father used to warn, "Beware the eco-terrorists' (meaning politically correct environmentalists who make unnecessary changes). He said that back in the 1970s. Time waits for no one and its march carries little good news for the classic car world. Out to drive my prehistoric, rolling environmental disaster Caddy now! Clay/Lexi

WTL

I guess my ultimate fear, with reference to the particular years we own, is that we may in 40 years still have the car, but little practical opportunity to refuel it with appropriate gas (either octane, or e85 and even more harsh types of fuels).  As much as the electronics, as much as the plastics, I think the hobby is going to be at the mercy of what follows the internal combustion engine that we know. 

That said, they will still be antiques, and arguably antiques are more popular than ever.  I wonder if, at some point in the future, actually being able to drive the vehicle is less important than having it to display, and for people with room, the vehicles will serve as discussion pieces.  I have an inoperable 1941 floor radio, I use it for a tv stand.  I know some people fix them, and some update them, me I just want to look at it.  Fixing it would be terribly daunting, only to deliver a distantly inferior sound to something I can get at walmart, cheap and small.

I don't see people wanting to fix plastic radios from the 90s...not many at least.

gary griffin


As I peruse old family albums and see my ancestors using horse drawn wagons and carriages.  I envision future generations enjoying photos of our "Pride and Joy's" but not really knowing what we put into the hobby.

The knowledge of our era will be available to them but the feelings we have for them will not be fully understood.  I knew my Great grandfather until I was 15 when he passed.  He crossed the country in a covered wagon and made deliveries in open horse drawn wagons.   I mention this because the personal connection draws my interest in 19th century transportation. I suspect Gramps was enamored with the sailing ships that his ancestors immigrated on?

My grandchildren find my cars interesting but not as interesting as their parents find them. I visualize my great grandchildren viewing old photos someday and wondering why I have such a smile on my face in pictures of me with my cars.




Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

64\/54Cadillacking

One thing that another person mentioned here that can possibly help the hobby is driving our cars regularly. I know all it takes is some little kid to see a nice ole Caddy cruising down the street to get them interested and hooked for life.

Anytime I drive my 64, and there’s little ones around they all stare at it like they’ve seen their favorite toy!

It’s such a great feeling and a compliment knowing that even small children know what looks cool, stylish and interesting. I remember not too long ago I had a 10-12 year old boy riding his skateboard in a parking lot where I parked to get something to drink at a market close by, and he said “cool car, I really like it”.

Getting that kind of attention is more precious and  worthy than the tons of adults that say the same thing to me when I go for a cruise, because at least I know I just made some kids day and he made mines as well hoping that in the near future when he grows up he to will want an classic Cadillac someday. 8)
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

Jeepers Creepers

That might be a 64 thing....

Couple of weeks ago (school holidays) a group of 4 or 5 young girls walking down the footpath, the cool one of the group gave me/The Fleetwood 2 thumbs up.

First thing I thought, was at least one of them had good taste.
Kevin and Astrid Campbell
Australia

Lexi

Happens with my '56 as well. On three occasions I have had young children point at the car exclaiming "Look, the Batmobile"...!!! Small children seem to recognize that there is something different about the car. Another time I was slowly driving through a sub division due to road construction where road pylons guided drivers around the various road work, (so I was creeping along, & with my windows down). Behind me was a modern limo. I slowly passed a group of young ladies at curb side, all dressed up & obviously ready to attend their school prom. As my car is also a limo they must have thought mine was the pick up vehicle. As I slowly drove by without stopping I noticed in my mirror the car behind had stopped to pick them up. I saw one of them longingly point to my car and heard her say "I want that one"! Made my day! Clay/Lexi

dochawk

Quote from: lexi on October 02, 2017, 11:05:19 AM
I believe that there will always be a select few who will for nostalgic reasons take the plunge, though the availability of products like gasoline and perhaps even certain lubricants may be a death blow to the 'hobby'.

I think that that's the *real* threat here.

I expect to be driving for roughly another forty years.  Gasoline cars, however, will probably only be sold for another ten or twenty.

For that matter, I seriously doubt that non-autonomous cars will be available 20 years from now, although a few may have a manual mode.

The corollary to *THAT* is that at some point, traffic control systems will be directing the vehicles, and manually driving will be banned.

We're going to need to figure out a way to fuel our vehicles (100% alcohol or hydrogen solutions, I presume), and a way to fit into the control networks (maybe some kind of gizmo on the dashboard and an exemption for classics to use this?)

i really have no hope that 25 years from now, I can simply hop in my '72 and drive it across town, casually stopping for gas on the way . . .
1972 Eldorado convertible,  1997 Eldorado ETC (now awaiting parts swap from '95 donor), 1993 Fleetwood but no 1926 (yet)

James Landi

Me thinks it will be many decades of "transition" to totally automonous electric vehicles.  And one can easily project a time when the automonous lane is similar to the HOV lanes, viz: restricted.  One of the ironies of loving Cadillacs is that G.M. is constantly pushing our brand to be the most AUTOMATIC, most ergonomically designed and sporting the very least number of knobs and switches to complicate the driving experience.  For those of us old enough to recall, during the early days of the German and Japanese car market advertising the makers pushed "road feel."  Meanwhile Cadillac created cars that increasingly isolated the driver and passengers from the road.   I recall thinking, "Why would I want a car that features road feel when I can drive my '56  Cadillac and feel as if I'm sitting on a moving living room sofa????  This all gets rather complicated.

gkhashem

Quote from: gkhashem on October 06, 2017, 04:29:11 PM
While not happening soon, it will someday. This is the new reality no guessing NO AGREEING, all these opinions may not matter.

http://money.cnn.com/2017/09/11/autos/countries-banning-diesel-gas-cars/index.html

http://autoweek.com/article/green-cars/california-mulls-combustion-engine-car-ban-after-similar-uk-france-and-china


Then what will you do?  Maybe only the super rich can play this game if there is any fuel to be had. If not then that's it.

As I already stated this is the real threat, all the other talking points were spouted off 40 years ago. NO gas NO cars.

While not happening soon give it 20-30 years and then what?  We all have paper weights.  All this other talk is chatter, opinions, but this appears to be a coming reality.
1959 Oldsmobile 98 Holiday Sports Sedan
1960 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr #72)
1964 Oldsmobile 98 Town Sedan (OCA 1st)
1970 GMC C1500
1977 Oldsmobile 98 Regency Coupe
1978 Cadillac Coupe Deville (CLC Sr Crown #959)*
1992 Oldsmobile 98 (OCA 1st)
1996 Oldsmobile 98
*CLC Past President's Preservation

Past Cadillacs
1959 Coupe Deville
1966 Coupe Deville (Sr #861)*
1991 Eldorado Biarritz (Sr #838)

bcroe

Fossil fuels are here for the very long term; nothing can match
them.  When they are gone, it probably indicates catastrophic 
world problems.  Bruce Roe

Steve Strickland

I've been reading along with this thread and am also very interested in the future of the hobby.

I fall under the 'college and family took my priorities first' category. I am now in my early 40s and have started my first real restoration. I bought my grandfather's 1951 60 Special. All the parts are there and original. It's not in great shape but it is complete. It would start with a bit of luck and jiggling. The chrome has surface rust on the face of it and the back of the bumpers appears to be only rust. The seats are well worn and covered with a shop blanket. The glass has the brown patina of the safety glass glue aging gracefully. The paint is dull and missing in small chunks on various panels. Even with all of that, the smile that I have while driving it and the looks/smiles/waves that I get from others makes me proud to own it.

As part of my research, I have looked at prices and availability for replacements, refurbishing and just living with what I have. The cost of having chrome replated is significant. I am not looking to have a fully restored show car. I want a car that I can drive occasionally to show off.

I grew up in a household where my father worked on his own cars and I was the helper. Once I was 10 or 11, I was in charge of a weekly maintenance check on the vehicles. I have done the same with my kids. I feel that I am mechanically inclined and am willing to tackle most items on my own. That being said, the Cadillac is very different from the 1970 GMC pickup that was my first ride. Restoring said pickup would be easier now with the plethora of parts available through the aftermarket and the current desire for the 67-72 lines. New parts for the Cadillac are not so abundant. I am doing this more as a labor of love than strictly hobby, however; my wife says that I've caught the bug. My kids, when prodded, will help but do not share my enthusiasm. I look at Cadillac's differently now since I've torn into this one. It is truly a marvel with the hydraulics and learning about the 6-V system. There are many items that I didn't even think about while I did my preliminary research that I am learning about. The local resources, for me, are non-existent. I look forward to having the car as a driver. Maybe in a few years I can justify replacing all the glass or having the chrome done.

In the meantime I will drive it on sunny days and not worry about those dim, yellow lights cutting through the darkness only to be blinded by an oncoming, modern led vehicle. Will I do another project in the future? I don't know the answer to that yet, but I do have an uncle who still owns my original pickup truck.

e.mason

I am truly humbled with all the extremely intelligent and informative replies to my post.  So many different angles and approaches to the subject, and all very interesting.  I think one thing we can all agree on.  All facets of the automobile, i.e. quality, dependability, cost of maintenance  are greatly different from days gone by, when most times we could go to our local automotive parts store, Pep Boys, and repair out prides and joys.
Eric Mason

cadillacmike68

Quote from: Bill Young on October 01, 2017, 11:28:21 PM
I personally think the safety things are fine , my problem centers around that in my opinion all the new cars look like ass. Also they all resemble  hundai's to the greater degree so why spend the extra money? . In addition they all will do anything electronically but there is virtually NO choices in color of interior or exterior. Most new cars to me look like the old song " Boxes , little boxes and they all look just the same, and they all are made out of ticky tacky and there is a white one and a black one and a silver one and a gray one and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same". Sorry but I like colors and chrome and individuality and style. I am continually baffled why there are as many makes of cars still in existence given the aforementioned . Other than the Dodge Charger and Challenger the rest of the cars bore me to tears, people I know sometimes say " I saw you on the road , didn't you see me"?, I don't want to tell them that I try to avoid looking that close to most cars because I hate seeing them and some are so ugly that they offend me to look at them, I'll leave it at that not wanting to offend anyone. One Mans Opinion.

Amen; the fugliest cars out there are the recent lexAss and TOYota offerings. They look like cylon rejects from the original battlestar galactica...

And, Every new gen crossover Suburban Uhttack Vehicle out there has a virtually identical side profile, Including the SRX or XT5 - or whatever...
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

cadillacmike68

Quote from: TJ Hopland on October 02, 2017, 10:10:54 AM
Look at where we are today with 3d scanning and printing.  You can pretty much make your own parts now and the technology gets better and the price comes down every day.   As far as the computers and how fast they advance it won't be long before you can do some simple hacks to a watch to emulate and replace a cars computer.   I was recently introduced to a computer called a Raspberry Pi.   Its a full blown computer about the size of a deck of cars that cost $35.   People have written software for it to emulate computers up to about 10 years ago and use them to control some pretty sophisticated robots and such.   I bet someone a little smarter than me could make one run a car.  They may have already done it,  look at the aftermarket EFI systems that are out there today where the ECU is built into the throttle body that pretty much looks like a carb.   I'm sure those computers are more advanced than the OE's were using 5 years ago.   Its going to be the kid that is playing video games today decides he likes his dads 2005 in 2035 and makes it work.

I don't think you can 3D print a Magnetic Ride Control strut for a 2005-2011 STS
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

cadillacmike68

Quote from: 64CaddieLacky on October 09, 2017, 03:02:14 AM
...Financial burdens like student loan debt, and career driven people simply don’t have the time nor the interest on owning a classic compared to a working class individual with no responsibilities, still lives at home, and has the time to give the car attention...

???

Working Class, No responsibilities? How do you equate those, especially when many college students and grads are STILL living at home???

I have several nephews and nieces all aged 25-35 who will not even get driver's licenses...
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

64\/54Cadillacking

Quote from: cadillacmike68 on November 27, 2017, 12:40:47 AM
???

Working Class, No responsibilities? How do you equate those, especially when many college students and grads are STILL living at home???

I have several nephews and nieces all aged 25-35 who will not even get driver's licenses...

I notice the blue collar working class type guys that like to get their hands dirty and maybe work in construction, don't have a family or kids yet, are the ones that are more likely to own a Classic and actually works on them, vs a wealthy white collar executive that would rather take his car to a shop all the time and hates to get his hands dirty.

Many young people still live at home since it's extremely hard to live on their own these days with the rising cost of housing and rent, debt, and everything else that is going up in price. They stay at home because it's affordable to them and they can still be able to have the things they want.

I'm 33, and I even notice guys my age simply aren't into old cars. They rather drive something new and fast.

The whole Techie generation is destroying the future of the hobby. As these kinds of people can care less about cars, and more than likely don't even know how to change out a flat tire.

As blue collar jobs slowly disappear, and the economy moves towards automation, there won't be too many options for young kids to have careers in that requires them to have skills fixing things.

The future of autonomous cars will more than likely kill the classic car industry in 30 years or possibly less. If the government starts making laws saying that it will be illegal to drive your own car, then every industry that has anything to do with the aftermarket such as classic car part makers, tire makers,  and so on will be gone for good.

The government really loves to take away our freedoms over time, and good things we like, don't they?
Currently Rides:
1964 Sedan Deville
1954 Cadillac Fleetwood 60 Special
1979 Lincoln Mark V Cartier Designer Series
2007 Lexus LS 460L (extended wheelbase edition)

Previous Rides:
1987 Brougham D' Elegance
1994 Fleetwood Bro
1972 Sedan Deville
1968 Coupe Deville
1961 Lincoln Continental
1993 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series
1978 Lincoln Continental ( R.I.P.) 1978-2024 😞

e.mason

Quote from: Bill Young on October 01, 2017, 10:28:21 PM
I personally think the safety things are fine , my problem centers around that in my opinion all the new cars look like ass. Also they all resemble  hundai's to the greater degree so why spend the extra money? . In addition they all will do anything electronically but there is virtually NO choices in color of interior or exterior. Most new cars to me look like the old song " Boxes , little boxes and they all look just the same, and they all are made out of ticky tacky and there is a white one and a black one and a silver one and a gray one and they're all made out of ticky tacky and they all look just the same". Sorry but I like colors and chrome and individuality and style. I am continually baffled why there are as many makes of cars still in existence given the aforementioned . Other than the Dodge Charger and Challenger the rest of the cars bore me to tears, people I know sometimes say " I saw you on the road , didn't you see me"?, I don't want to tell them that I try to avoid looking that close to most cars because I hate seeing them and some are so ugly that they offend me to look at them, I'll leave it at that not wanting to offend anyone. One Mans Opinion.

Amen; the fugliest cars out there are the recent lexAss and TOYota offerings. They look like cylon rejects from the original battlestar galactica...

And, Every new gen crossover Suburban Uhttack Vehicle out there has a virtually identical side profile, Including the SRX or XT5 - or whatever...


Here is my take on the current look of cars.  Those of us, that were around in the "golden age" of automobile styling, can vividly remember, when stylists weren't hampered by government regulations.  We enthusiastically looked forward to the frequent styling changes. Sad to say, those days are gone forever.  Those days set the standard for us, as to what a car should look like.  It should be added, that during this period, it was form over function.  Cars back then had built in obsolescence.  Today's buying public aren't all that concerned greatly with appearance. They want reliability, comfort and convenience. 
Eric Mason

Big Apple Caddy

Opinions some folks, usually older generations, have about modern cars of a given era looking too much alike are nothing new.  Dating back to at least to at least the 1930s (and probably before) and every decade since there have been numerous articles written about cars looking too much alike, there has been ad copy stating that cars look too much alike, etc.   This sentiment has been around for a very very long time and will continue to be around into the future.

Just a few quotes from sample ads referencing look-alike cars:
1930s â€" "If you are tired of cars that all look alike...if you want to ride with genuine pride-you’ll buy a Pontiac"
1940s â€" "Today when so many cars look alike...It’s refreshing to drive a Graham"
1950s â€" "For the man who is fed up with paying too much for look-alike cars"
1960s â€" "So why settle for look-alike, drive-alike cars when you can get..."
1960s â€" "Now let's get away from the look-alike, drive-alike, first-cousin cars with..."
1960s â€" "Have you noticed how many 1966 cars look alike?"

Newspaper and magazine articles over the many decades about look-alike cars have been even more plentiful.

These types of opinions are about as old as the classic car hobby itself.