Author Topic: 1941 6019s  (Read 474 times)

Offline Marty Michaels

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1941 6019s
« on: October 04, 2017, 06:53:31 PM »
Greetings,I have added a 60s to my small collection it also needs work. The first thing I want to tackle is the rotted out rear window frame. I am open to all help and advice. As you can see I have started to dismantle it,I hope to have the metal wood and paint done in seven days.(No that only happens on tv). It does have a problem at the bottom of the a pillar,a common problem I've heard. Thanks for any input, Marty Michaels.
Marty Michaels
1947 6269
1941 6019s
CLC#26833

Offline Paul Phillips

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #1 on: October 05, 2017, 01:27:58 PM »
Marty
Congrats on your new 60S!

I am not following you regarding the rear window situation.  The exterior frame for the rear window is a pot metal casting - is that what is damaged?  Or is it the wood frame surrounding the rear window on the inside?  I think I can help you regardless, just want to answer the right question.

Please tell us more about the A pillar situation.  That area is usually fairly solid if the rest of the car is solid.  More common is for the lower section of the cowl, behind the front fender, to rot out.

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)

Offline Marty Michaels

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2017, 01:32:58 AM »
Thanks Paul, The wood frame on the inside. I miss spoke it is the lower cowl on the passenger side I have not pulled the other fender off yet but it most likely in the same shape,Thanks. Marty
Marty Michaels
1947 6269
1941 6019s
CLC#26833

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2017, 07:00:07 AM »
Marty, Paul is being way too modest. His car is among the finest in the world for this model, and it took him four years to complete correctly, not (with all due respect) seven days. Rather than worry too much about the cowl yet, you need to check the wood underneath the entire body to see if it is at all usable. This was the last production car that used wood to the extent that was done on the 1938-1941 Cadillac 60S.

My car was rust-free except for a small spot in the cowl area where you have a problem. When it was repainted the first time, they did take the fenders off (as I found no evidence of the original color). You have a fine car to start on and will be a pleasure for you to drive when it is done. Best of luck.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189
1981 Cadillac Seville
1979 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
2016 Cadillac ATS

Offline Marty Michaels

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2017, 02:30:23 PM »
Thanks barry,I have done the ice pick test and it passed,my main problem right now is the wood on the back window. The rear window hade a leak so most of the wood was rotted out,is there any place to get a blueprint so I can have a new frame made. Marty
Marty Michaels
1947 6269
1941 6019s
CLC#26833

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2017, 06:18:35 PM »
Luckily mine had enough that I was able to place a new hunk of wood glued in place. I doubt that any prints exist these days as GM never dreamed that there would be any need for such. You might join our CLC and after you get your Club Directory (new one should be out with next month's issue) and then contact Terry Wenger in MO who made his car into a formal (downsized the back light) top and may be able to help you.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189
1981 Cadillac Seville
1979 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
2016 Cadillac ATS

Offline Marty Michaels

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2017, 06:18:03 PM »
Thanks barry, I,ve been a member since 2011 and I will see if terry can help thanks marty
Marty Michaels
1947 6269
1941 6019s
CLC#26833

Offline Paul Phillips

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2017, 10:07:23 AM »
Marty

This can be a big project if you must truly replace the wood, as there are a lot of things that interact with it.  I would suggest you consider if you want to replace it or if you can make a satisfactory repair with the wood in place using a penetrating liquid epoxy to stabilize what is there, and rebuilding missing elements with epoxy putty. Look at Abatron LiquidWood as an example of this.

You will also need to resolve the leak itself. Leaks can occur between the body and the cast frame, between the cast frame and the gasket, or between the glass and the gasket.  I will need to look up the part number, but what you want to use is a 3M sealant that does not cure/dry out.

You might be able to access enough to do this epoxy repair by removing the interior window garnish, pulling the tacks that hold the headliner to the wood, and carefully working thru that opening.

If doing the wood replacement is the needed path, then you will first have to release the headliner in the rear compartment area to have access to the needed areas. To do this you will release around the window as above, carefully remove the upholstered side panels above the rear seat armrests, unfasten the wind lace at the rear edge of the rear door openings and unfasten the headliner along the rear edge of the doors, at the package shelf, and off of the other wood in the rear compartment. This can get risky if the fabric is brittle. Once you have the headliner free, roll/fold it up and secure it to the inside of the roof to give you work space.

The wood around the rear window essentially encases the flange that the outer cast frame also screws into.  Attached to it at the bottom are 2 arms that come forward to a mounting plate in the C pillar. The plywood for the rear package shelf attach to these arms, and there are also a couple of struts that function as upholstery attachments. You will also need to remove the glass, weatherstripping and ultimately the cast rear window frame, as the screws holding the frame to the flange also penetrate into the wood.

The wood is symmetric left to right, so your best bet & hope is to save enough from one side to make a mirror image pattern to reproduce the parts needed.  The wood is shaped to match the flange to the inside, the roof shape to the rear side, and angled along the bottom to the horizontal of the package shelf.

Hopefully this is enough info to let you assess your situation. There are a lot more details we can cover as you take this on. I am attaching a photo someone shared with me that was helpful as I undertook this project. I have other photos of this wood as installed in the car.

Paul

PS - thanks Barry for your kind words about my car.
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)

Offline jackworstell

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2017, 10:24:59 AM »
Years ago I removed the wood inner frame from the rear window on a 1941 60S      To my surprise I found that the wood was fastened to the sheet metal around the rear window by a bunch of small nails........maybe size 2p or 3p.    It took a while to remove all of them.
I guess that the 1938    1939   1940  60S  models would be the same in this regard.

It might be that these small nails were to hold the wood frame in place until it was finally secured by the screws coming thru from the cast outer frame.    Today I guess we would use something like "liquid nails"  instead of a bunch of small nails.

I have no idea as to whether this was done at the factory or whether done much later as a repair of some sort.

Jack Worstell        jlwmaster@aol.com


Offline Paul Phillips

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2017, 11:05:48 AM »
Jack
You are correct about the nails, I probably should have included that in the description. When I put the replacement wood back, I used some automotive urethane adhesive along the roof panel side along with nails thru the flange to hold that section in place.

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)

Offline jackworstell

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2017, 11:21:41 AM »
Paul....thinking back....I also remember finding nails ( as I recall the same type/size as I found in the back window wood frame )  used to
"nail" the outer perimeter of the floor pan to the wood plank ( the plank between the chassis frame and the body of the car ).....did you find the same thing ?

Jack

Offline Paul Phillips

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #11 on: October 08, 2017, 05:13:07 PM »
Absolutely!  I must have pulled 100's on these between the pan, rockers, rear window, etc.

What was really interesting on the sill wood were the nails where you couldn't pull them because the factory had welded the cowl sheet metal on top of the pan - after the pan was nailed to the wood. Surprised they didn't start fires doing that!

Paul
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)

Offline Marty Michaels

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2017, 05:32:49 PM »
Paul, Ive already pulled whats left of the frame out.The top piece is intact so is the left down piece however the right side the right side where the leak was is rotted starting 3" from the top bottom piece not savable.I will post pictures. How does the outside frame come off i've taken all the screws out i don't want to damage it   is it pressed in to the body?                                                                                                                           .Marty
Marty Michaels
1947 6269
1941 6019s
CLC#26833

Offline Paul Phillips

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2017, 08:22:49 PM »
Marty
That's great that you have a couple pieces still complete. The left vertical is a mirror image of the right, so that can serve as a pattern for you. There are actually multiple parts to the bottom, so we will need to see which is damaged to know what is next. If the bottom pieces are God on the left, you can mirror them to make the whole part.

The cast frame will potentially be sealed to the body if someone tried to stop the leak before. Taking it out  means first to remove the inner chrome garnish. Next you remove the 2 vertical dividers from the inside.  The 3 glass pieces will be captured in crusty rubber, so cut them out carefully from the cast frame.  Steele Rubber can supply you a new replacement. When you are down to the cast frame, you will see about 20 screws that hold it to the flange - remove them, then carefully run a plastic tool around the cast frame from the outside.  The OE seal and any caulk applied over the years needs to be cut, while preserving the body paint. From there, carefully bump & pry the frame away from the body. You really do not want to crack the frame, as they are scarce. If yours needs to be replated, this is the time to send it out for that service.

The wood on my car was not really glued to the body, but it could be the OE glue just gave up. Carefully run a long knife blade (like carpet knife) between the body & wood to separate the parts, and pry carefully to avoid denting the roof panel.

Paul

Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)

Offline jackworstell

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #14 on: October 09, 2017, 08:01:01 AM »
Paul......the 20 or so screws you mentioned about.......I guess all of these go thru the outer metal frame and then screw into the inner wooden frame ?  ( I can't remember )

Jack

Offline Paul Phillips

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #15 on: October 09, 2017, 09:34:58 PM »
Jack
The screws are flathead sheet metal screws. They probably get most of the 'bite' in the metal flange but also penetrate the wood. The wood fits very close to that flange, with fillers in the upper corners, etc.  Screws surely also stabilize the wood, beyond what the nails would do.

Picture shows a test fit of the basic surround frame before the side arms and transition piece to the package shelf are added. I used a wax impregnated linen as an antisqueek to the metal.

Paul

« Last Edit: October 09, 2017, 09:39:30 PM by Paul Phillips »
Paul Phillips CLC#27214
1941 60 Special (6019S)
1949 60 Special (6069X)

Offline Marty Michaels

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #16 on: October 09, 2017, 11:09:45 PM »
Paul the picture will be a great help. I'll upload some pictures when I figure out how.Still working on outer frame to get it out very stubborn.
Marty
Marty Michaels
1947 6269
1941 6019s
CLC#26833

Offline Marty Michaels

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Re: 1941 6019s
« Reply #17 on: October 13, 2017, 06:10:32 AM »
I got the outside frame off. I will be getting ahold of my buddy to do the wood work.Thank s for the help until I get the finished wood back. Marty
Marty Michaels
1947 6269
1941 6019s
CLC#26833