Grand Nationals 2005

[Phil Taylor clc#20159]

Having read a couple posts with comments about having to be a CLC member to attend does make a little sence. Vary Little, but only if the CLC is making memberships available, or allowing indivituals to join at the gate. I pay $75 to go to a NFL Game that lasts 3 hours, then add a couple Beers and a Hot Dog and you have spent $100 bucks. All days with a bunch of beautiful Cadillacs and LaSalles is more then worth the CLC membership price. A membership available at the gate could sure help expand the CLC bank book too.

Am I safe to assume spouses are allowed to attend while not being a card carrying member or is this going to be a good old boys only show? And if that is the case I will take my 38 6119, daily driver, self restored, not show quality, Cadillac and park outside the gate and give free rides to those that are turned away.

Charge Admission, Sell Memberships, but make it available to anyone that wants to attend.

But thats just my opinion......

Phil

[Barry Wheeler #2189]

 If you would read your Directory, you would find that your spouse is welcome at meets. Needless to say, this would also include your children still at home. The club has not issued cards for several years now.
I have never had some security goon at Grand Nationals  tap me on the shoulder and say, "Hey, buddy, are you a member of the CLC?" And, given the locales of the meets...usually open air parking lots or fields, your own common sense should tell you that there is no way to herd everyone into a choke point to collect admissions or put up a fence to enforce a membership rule. Now is this plain enough for you? Can you figure it out? Can we let this issue rest? NO CLUB, ours, the CCCA, AACA or whatever, can issue a statement that many of you seem determined to see in print about "open" meets, simply because of insurance concerns. Aint gonna happen, guys. Use your head. If you happen to be in Des Moines, IA from August 3-6, 2005 at a certain hotel, you will possibly see a lot of shiny cars in a parking lot. It might be reasonable to assume that if a mom and dad hauling their kids to the mall were passing by, theyd probably find a place to park and go look at them...

[Lou 19058]

Barry is 100percent correct. You just have to get past the armed guards,road block and infer red cameras Go, look at the cars. No one will stop you. I went to the 2003 GN.It was and is one of the best car experiences I ever had. Dont think of this as a regular "car show". Its a bunch of Cadillac guys enjoying their hobby WITHOUT the hassle of tons of spectators which require extra security and manpower to keep them in our out. If you have a Cadillac that is not show quality you could enter it for display or have it judged in the primary class(membership required). Bottom line,if you love Cadillacs GO.

[Johnny]

Every year this question about vistation rights to the Grand Nationals inevitably pops up, and it seems earlier each year.  I think the general consensus is that all are welcome, free of charge, to come and look at the field of Cadillacs and LaSalles.  IMHO it think part of the fun of the hobby is having others look at and admire my "pride and joy"  If the show field is just limited to other members, thats like preaching to the choir.

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Johnny,

I trust that I am not speaking out of turn but speaking from "Outside" and then "Inside", when I wanted to attend the 2002 GN as an entrant, I found that had to join the USA CLC, so that I was covered by the Public Liability Insurance that has to be there to cover Entrants.   This enabled me to attend all the functions, tours, and the like.   Even though I was a member of the Australian CLC, the fact that we were affiliated with the USA CLC, it didnt cover attending the USA event.

Now, taking the attendance of the General Public just going along for a squiz, well, that is free to all and sundry, and hopefully always will be free.

Hope that clears it up.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le), (with a membership number)
60 CDV

[Steve Crum 20999]

Its only been recently that I started monkeying around with the older Cadillacs. I own and have owned several show material old John Deere 2 cylinder tractors. Ive never taken a single one to a show or expo (the equivalent of GN). I am judged and my work is judged on a daily basis and judging is never impartial and every rule subject to the judges interpretation, so any leisure time activity I might enjoy, will not be judged. If you say I must sit at the back of the bus because my Cadillac doesnt have the "correct" whatever, not a problem! I can flaunt the eye candy to a more appreciative bunch at the local burger joint. These people appreciate the overall picture and dont look under the car for a little run in the undercoat or care if the car ever had undercoat from the factory. They are just as thrilled to see a rodded 67 CDV as they are a meticulously restored 67 CDV, often times the former more so. How many young folks (read the future of any hobby) do you see roaming around a lot or field of roped off meticulously restored cars, as opposed to a McDonalds parking lot on a Friday or Saturday night, NO admission charged, no frisking done. The old geezers had better wake up if they want to see their pride and joy passed on to an appreciative heir, rather than the crusher, because scrap is the highest its been in years! "and these old cars weigh up fast!"

[Lou]

I disagree. The GN is for Factory correct Cadillacs. There are a million shows and clubs that cater to all kinds of cars. There is only one club dedicated to the preservation of Cadillacs. As far as old geezers go. My car won 1st place at the 2003 GN which made me the proud owner of a CLC senior car at the ripe old age 33! Please, go to a GN. Its not the AARP.

[Porter CLC # pending]

Restoring a car to factory correct or as left the factory is a daunting task. That is what restoration is.

Having formerly owned two Corvettes that were stock any mods would only devalue them and basically accomplish nothing anyway. They were a masterpiece of engineering and design in their time, still high performance and stylish in this day and age.

Bolt ons or performance upgrades can be removed, some guys even replace the stock engines with something else to protect or preserve them.

In reference to modifications I now realize the CLC is similar to Bloomington Gold Corvettes, whereas closest to factory receives the highest award, points deducted for incorrect details.

These would be factory stock correct show cars, which we all appreciate and respect. Very difficult to achieve.

Porter

[Steve Crum 20999]

Problem is If I could go back in time and pull say a new 1959 Eldorado off the assembly line and truck it directly to the 2005 GN, Id would bet the pink slip that at least 2 judges would find a reason to deduct points if not call it an outright fraud.
The bright spot here is with each passing year there are fewer "experts" that remember every little manufacturing detail for a car or tractor built 50 or more years ago. I saw a young guy once get disqualified from a juried show. He had a near perfect 1950 John Deere model G tractor. In that year many of these came from the factory with a distributor ignition. This one however came with the older Wico magneto ignition so the kids tractor was disqualified. Dad was familiar with this tractor as he had looked at it when it was new and he noted that it was odd then that it had a mag. Dad knew the farmer that bought the tractor new and owned it until he passed it down to his grandson. Dad was looking to buy also and he ordered 2 G tractors new from the branch house, both came with distributor ignition.
Ive been in manufacturing for 25 years (20 years in management) and I know all to well that you do what you gotta do to get the product to shipping, some of its documented some of its not.
So in my perspective about the only one that can say something is "factory correct" would be the one who approved it for shipment. So I avoid the disappointment of opinions. My 76 Caribou would not cut it at GN as it did not come off the assembly line as such, it started life as a plain jane un inspired CDV, professionally converted to its present state right off the dealers lot to take its place right along side any limo or hearse and in Cadillac history. It still qualifies as "modified" and as such is scorned. So Ill see you at the million other car shows, but not likely GN.

[Porter CLC # pending]

If Im not mistaken,it was a beauty. Same conversion company as the Caribou, correct me if Im wrong.

Apparently all commercial chassis factory authorized cars are acceptable for a GN, or a non commercial chassis, an 84/85 Eldorado convertible for example.

Cadillac is probably the most customized car ever , a testament to its desirability, I cant even recall having seen a pre war (Im only 49 years old) non Cadillac ambulance, hearse, etc. They existed, before GM took over the market, granted.

The Cadillac ambulance is a testament to its reliability to get the job done, a dependable commercial chassis. Might as well ride in style in a time of crisis or need. Those days are long gone, we have new vehicles now that serve the purpose better, full size vans, etc.

Porter

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Steve,

As long as my legs point to the ground, I am of the opinion that AND Cadillac should be allowed to attend a GN, or any other CLC function.   I dont think that makes me a bad member.

If I had your Caribu, it would be there, with bells and whistles on it.

At the 2002 GN, there were a lot of vehicles that werent original, and nobody barred them from attending.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV (modified)

[JIM CLC # 15000]

01-23-04
To: A O of U, A, and MU Cadillacs.
 Way back when, I purchased a new 1963 Chevelle. VIN showed that it was # 13 off of the line, being somewhat assemblied at the Janeville, WI. plant.
It was missing the heater duct, the spare wheel was difference from the four on the road and the "shims" used to align the front were loose and fell-out.
Now, had that been a Cadillac and restored "just like" it came from the factory, how many points would be deducted?
Theres more to the story but it will keep for another day.

Good Luck to all, Jim

[r parkinson clc 12511]

If the GN is for factory correct cars only then you would miss out on seeing my surviving 55 CDV with stunning original factory paint and interior, with 92000 miles of service under its belt and longing to go another 92000.  I guess my addition of seat belts and  3rd brakelight for safety and alternator for reliability and newer radio for listening comfort and cruise control for driving comfort dont fit in the perfect car world.  It is a driver, not a trailer queen for shows. It even went to the GN in Chicago under its own power and didnt draw too many critical responses. It even ended up pictured in the "The Cadillac Century" that included many of the cars in that event. Every scratch and faded paint spot on the car shows history and age.  
I dont mean to belittle those who choose to restore cars to perfect originality, as I enjoy viewing them too.  I just feel that there is room for other variations, as they tend to show another side of reality.
If I remember correctly, entrance in the judging event at the GN was optional.  

[Rhino 21150]

If the car has to be exactly "as it came from the factory" then a Gremlin I saw in 1971 would be dandy! It didnt run when it was taken off the truck. There were NO fluids in it. Oil, trans, radiator, washer bottle, steering box or pump, brakes, rear, or BATTERY. Factory sabotage? What a hoot!

[Steve Crum 20999]

Early dry cell technology no doubt! My wife had a 74 gremlin until she left home. I bought her a Buick then a couple of olds and a Pontiac. She was mad as h--l when I sold the 87 Eurosport VR I rebuilt and replaced it with an 89 Buick Grand National clone (the Eurosport was a pig), presented her with a beautiful 93 Sedan DeVille. She says "as long as it runs". Im still looking for a K-car (that runs) for her to drive instead!

[Jim Eccleston CLC 16079]

Please indulge me as I express my opinion on this subject, and dont take it too personally...

   It seems to me that there is a great deal of unwarranted criticism about the Grand National Meets, especially concerning judging and criteria. We seem to be demonizing them without justification or experience. To those critics of Grand National meets, and the judging therein, how many GN shows have you actually participated in??? Is the criticism based on experience, or "urban legend"?
   First, I have always thought that the main purpose of the GN was simply to get together and meet/discuss/gab with others of like interest, as well as exchange ideas, tips, and experiences. The actual car show is only one event among many. One does not need to enter a car, nor does any participant even have to drive a Cadillac to the GN. It can be just as fun to go as a spectator, and as has been clearly said, the common folk on the street really are not excluded from the public places where the car show is held. This certainly was true in South Bend, and I cant see how it will be different in Des Moines.
   Second, the judging criteria are clearly stated on the judging form in the membership directory. Yes, certain modifications or alterations will get points deducted, just as cracked glass, inoperative accessories, or crummy paint will cost points. But the purpose of the judging is to compare the cars against a relatively level baseline; that is the factory standard. Any other baseline could also be chosen, but this club has set its own as close to factory original. The local street rodders club has a different baseline. There must be a base or guide, or else we might as well go to "Peoples Choice" judging, in which the most flamboyant pink pearlescent paint and chromed engine compartment attract the most votes, just as a shiny coin attracts the crows.
   Third, the club, in my opinion, does accommodate a level of modification and differenrtiation in that there are three levels of judging -- Touring, Primary, and Senior. I think that any Cadillac or LaSalle will be able to find a niche in which it will not only belong, but be welcome. I quote the standards of the touring division: "...to encourage members to drive and show their Cadillacs and LaSalles regardless of condition." I would interpret this as an invitation for any car in any state of condition or modification. There are many cars in far-from-pristine condition seen at GN shows. They are not shunned or disqualified, nor are their owners snubbed. Quite the contrary. As I have seen, these owners are welcomed for the fact that they have a driveable car that they are saving from the scrapyard. Even so, tasteful and professional modifications, such as an alternator, could still be found in the Primary class. The owner would just have to accept the point deduction, just as the owner with the chipped paint would. But if the overall condition of the car is still good, it would still be competitive. After all, how many of us have 100 point cars?
   Fourth, the judges at a GN are regular people, rather than some special breed of ogre spawned and raised in some Cadi-cave, and mentored by the Wizard of Authenticity. They are just people who like old cars, and have volunteered their time. Yes, there are many strange factory quirks, and yes, the judges will not be experts an every variation, but what do we expect??? The best we can do is use the Authenticity Manuals as a guideline, but even those are not flawless, nor do they exist for all categories. Few of the assembly line workers are around to provide insight and knowledge, so we have to do the best we can.
   Lastly, there is discussion about establishing a Modified category. I think that it would be a good idea. But what standards should that encompass? Would it include something minor like the installation of 1965 Cadillac crest seatbelts in an 1960, as well as the red candy-apple painted engine compartment with the chromed 472 in the 49 sedanette? What about a supercharged Chevy engine? What should the parameters be? And having set limits and parameters, would there not be someone who still feels excluded?
    Rather than speculate and complain, it would be more constructive to get involved. Go to the GN, with or without a car. Volunteer to judge. You can share your concerns and expertise, as well as see the event from the judges perspective.And dont buy into this unsubstantiated drivel about the club shunning "mere" spectators or those of us with non-factory perfect cars. It only feeds upon itself and takes on an aura or truth that is not based on reality.
   Rant mode off. Thanks for listening.

[Bruce Reynolds # 18992]

Gday Jim,

Well said.

Bruce,
The Tassie Devil(le),
60 CDV.

[Porter CLC # pending]

It pertains to many other things besides automobiles.

Europe has buildings that have stood for many centuries and will continue to do so.

We have had many historic buildings in the US, in Detroit for example, but in our throwaway society we level them and put up disposable glass skyscrapers.

Automobiles were built for profit and meant to be driven, not a conducive environment for preservation.

For most of us a Cadillac is a work of art, worthy of the lengthy time and expense to restore them to as new.

Some of them are too far gone to justify the expense in that respect but can be salvaged and made roadworthy, in different shapes and forms.

You always want to preserve any classic item that was a masterpiece within its time, that is why the very rare Cadillacs command the big money:rarity and desirability.

Some autos were timeless classics whereas everything just came together to create a masterpiece of design and craftsmanship, little did they know at the time, they were just giving the consumer what they wanted and trying to make a profit.

Upon consideration of restoring any car you have to weigh the pros and cons, no need for me to conject on that subject, most people here know what the considerations are.

The 60s muscle cars will make you wince when you see the prices they are going for, factory stock correct with documentation will have the highest value, likewise for a classic Cadillac.

Porter

[Barry Wheeler #2189]

Dear Jim, Thank you for your well thought out message. You clarify many points that members should take to heart.
Many of the judges that volunteer their time never see more than their class of cars at the GN, especially if they have a large number of cars to judge. Carl Steig and his staff generally try to keep this number alloted evenly, but sometimes, it just happens. The last year I was Head Judge, 1986 I believe, at the first meet in Fort Worth, the guys doing the 1941 class spent well over an hour, trying to break a tie for THIRD place. (This was before we allowed ties.) This was late in the afternoon! They were trying to be (more than) fair to the entrants.
No one can ever know what is "factory original." No one "knows" everything about any one year. But we try. And I dont think we get down to fine details like I have heard the Model A clubs and  Bloomington Gold do. For one thing, because we do not have the excellent documentation these cars do. One must always remember that Cadillacs and LaSalles were built in miniscule numbers compared to other makes. And that generally, car manufacturers do not care about their history. They dont even care about yesterdays sales. They are far more concerned about tomorrows sales. I would also encourage anyone who is interested, in getting involved in the running of the Club. In your region, or even nationally. Write an article. Serve on the Board. By doing these two things, my road led to my serving as President of the Club, twenty three years after I joined in 1964. Thanks again for a great letter.

[Bob Diederich]

Porter, Yes Iam still around. Met Greg last weekend had a good time at his show. still looking for the eldo. Bob D