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Point system at the CLC GN

Started by yachtflame, July 15, 2014, 10:06:23 AM

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yachtflame

I was wondering if any one knows the point levels or break off that differentiate the 1st, 2nd and 3rd place levels of the CLC shows. I know that at some shoes, a car must be above 95 points to take a first place. I was wondering if the CLC kept to simular standards.
Wayne Elsworth
CLC #17075

Dan LeBlanc

Depends on the category.  For example a first place in primary is a minimum of 90 points.

Everything is broken down in the judge's manual:

http://cadillaclasalleclub.org/images/CLC_JudgingManual.pdf
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Joe Puleo CLC #13617

90 pts in Primary or within 2 pts of the highest scoring car. So you can score a 96 and be awarded a second if another car scored a 99. Senior is 95 pts or within 2 points of the highest car.
Joe Puleo

Dan LeBlanc

Joe

I asked about this on Saturday at the Grand National - the judge I spoke with clarified it with Bill Anderson, the new chief judge replacing Carl Steig for me.  You are not competing against other cars, you are competing against a scoresheet that accounts for a standard about how a car left the dealership.  That means as new, including dealer installed CADILLAC AUTHORIZED accessories.  Aftermarket accessories are an authenticity deduction.

In your example of a car scoring 99 and one scoring 96, both cars would be awarded a first as both cars achieved a minimum of 90 points required to achieve a first in primary. What the other cars do in the class have nothing to do with your position.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Jason Edge

Both would have to score above 98 or less than 2 point difference to tie for first. It's there in section H:

H. Tie Scores and Minimum Scores
1. Tie Scores. Duplicate awards* will be made. Vehicles in Primary and the three (3) Senior
Divisions scoring 98 points or higher or less than two points below the highest scoring vehicle hall be considered TIED for first. All other ties must be exact ties. All winners must meet or exceed the minimum score. Ties in First (or Second) do not eliminate or reduce the number of lesser awards available
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
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Series75

Dan's correct.   I was a team leader judge this year and that's exactly the way it was presented at the judges breakfast.   Now, what occurs after the judging sheets are submitted is for a very small group to decide.   Tom CLC # 6866

Jason Edge

#6
I was at the Judge's Breakfast and do not recall hearing anything in contradiction of the judging rules. It is a fact that you have to have a 90 point minimum to get a 1st place in Primary, however, everyone that scores over 90 points does not tie for 1st place! If that were the case we would have easily had 5 to tie for first place in Class 20 which I judged. I judged one car that scored 93.5 last year and came in 2nd, and had made some improvements this year but did not win this year.  90 is simply a mininum level one must obtain to get a 1st place finish. If two cars both score higher than 98 they would be deemed so close to a perfect score they would tie; or if less than 2 points of each other and above the 90 point mininum they would tie. 

For example, if the two highest cars receive a 98.0 and 96.1 respectively, they would tie for 1st.   If on the other hand one scores 98 and the other 95.9, you have a 1st and 2nd place.

Keep in mind that scoring 90 is actually a total of 20 deduction points since the total tally is divided by 2 from the total 200 point scale.  Many cars entered in touring (12 of 16 I believe they said) were disqualified, because they scored above 92. 90 (or 20 actual score sheet deduction points) is actually quite low, and a level deemed a minimum to qualify for a first place.
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
2022 XT5 Luxury Premium - Dark Moon Blue Metallic

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Regarding the Senior Division and beyond - is it the case that 95 points or above qualifies for a first - regardless of whether other vehicles have placed higher within the division? 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Jason Edge

Eric, Again referring back to section H. 1:
1. Tie Scores. Duplicate awards* will be made. Vehicles in Primary and the three (3) Senior Divisions scoring 98 points or higher or less than two points below the highest scoring vehicle shall be considered TIED for first.

If you score 98 or above in Primary, Senior, Senior Wreath or Senior Crown you get a 1st Place.
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
2022 XT5 Luxury Premium - Dark Moon Blue Metallic

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#9
As Jason says above, 98 ties with 96.1 therefore I assume 98 and 97 would also be a tie.

The difference must equal or exceed 2 points in order to break the tie.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

INTMD8

Not sure how you get 98 and up high score wins

" If two cars both score higher than 98 they would be deemed so close to a perfect score they would tie; or if less than 2 points of each other and above the 90 point mininum they would tie.  "

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

#11
Correct.

All Divisions:

>=98 automatically places first, period.

<2 points of highest point car also good for first place.

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Jason Edge

#12
Eric, you are correct but in 2nd part you need to add <2 points of highest point car and greater than minimum for judging class.


For example, in Primary if car with highest score has a 91, and next highest score is say 89.5 it would not meet the 90 point minimum and would not be eligible for a 1st place finish.

For me the way the rule is written is very clear and addresses any situation.
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
2022 XT5 Luxury Premium - Dark Moon Blue Metallic

signart

Quote from: Jason Edge on July 15, 2014, 03:35:10 PM
Eric, Again referring back to section H. 1:
1. Tie Scores. Duplicate awards* will be made. Vehicles in Primary and the three (3) Senior Divisions scoring 98 points or higher or less than two points below the highest scoring vehicle shall be considered TIED for first.

If you score 98 or above in Primary, Senior, Senior Wreath or Senior Crown you get a 1st Place.
No dog in this fight that's for sure, but how can 98 points and 96 points tie if scoring has to be less than 2 points for a tie? Two points = two points, not less than 2 points, right?
Art D. Woody

Jason Edge

Art, It would not be a tie for 1st. Scroll back to my first example:
"For example, if the two highest cars receive a 98.0 and 96.1 respectively, they would tie for 1st.   If on the other hand one scores 98 and the other 95.9, you have a 1st and 2nd place."

I used 96.1 as an example since it would be less than 2 points. 96.0 would not be less than two points if highest scoring car was 98.0 and therefore would not meet the qualification for a 1st place tie.
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
2022 XT5 Luxury Premium - Dark Moon Blue Metallic

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: Jason Edge on July 15, 2014, 09:07:35 PM
Eric, you are correct but in 2nd part you need to add <2 points of highest point car and greater than minimum for judging class.


For example, in Primary if car with highest score has a 91, and next highest score is say 89.5 it would not meet the 90 point minimum and would not be eligible for a 1st place finish.

For me the way the rule is written is very clear and addresses any situation.

Yes, I assumed that was a given but I should have mentioned that point.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Jason Edge

Eric, I knew you got it, but I wanted to be clear so there was no misinterpretation. 

I've read the judging manual back to back several times and think the basic points set-up for different judging classes is very logical, very methodical, and very fair.  It's easy to jump to conclusions, but think Carl Steig and company have done a great job getting the manual to the level it is.  Can it be improved?  Sure! That's where everyone needs to read it, know it, then collectively work to make improvements.
Jason Edge
Lifetime Member
Executive Vice President
CLC 1963/64 Cadillac Chapter Director - www.6364Cadillac.com
CLC Carolina Region Webmaster - www.CRCLC.org
CLC MRC Benefactor
email - jasonedge64@outlook.com
1964 Coupe DeVille - Sierra Gold - http://bit.ly/1WnOQRX
2002 Escalade EXT - Black
2013 Escalade EXT Premium Edition - Xenon Blue
2022 XT5 Luxury Premium - Dark Moon Blue Metallic

Dan LeBlanc

Doesn't seem that complicated I guess.

Guess the biggest thing for participants to know when presenting the car is to review the score sheet to see what the judges are looking for, get an authenticity manual, and as long as both are in line with each other on the car, should be no problem winning an award.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

Jeff Wilk

I beg to differ as my Son and I read the manual and both independently scored our car to make it was mot a 92 or better. I even sent pictures to former judges and showed the car to other members. I even discussed it with Carl.  Collective decision was to enter it in Touring.  Result disqualified.  :'(

I just want to get the judging sheet to see what went wrong as we simply don't understand.
"Impossible Only Describes The Degree Of Difficulty" 

Southern New Jersey

1959 Cadillac Fleetwood Sixty Special
1975 Eldorado Convertible (#12 made)
1933 Phaeton Chevrolet - "Baby Cadillac"
1933 Master Sedan Chevrolet - "Baby Cadillac"

SOLD
1976 Cadillac Mirage (factory authorized Pick-Up)
1958 Cadillac Sixty-Special
1958 Cadillac Sixty-Special
1958 Cadillac Sedan
1958 Cadillac Coupe Deville

Dan LeBlanc

Jeff

I think we are all overly critical of our cars.  We know every flaw, every rattle, every crack in the paint.  As a human race, we are very self-defeating.  I took a look at your car on Saturday and thought to myself, this is a nice car.  Way nicer than you made it out to be.  The bloody thing is beautiful.  I'd never throw it out of my garage, that's for sure.  But, then again, it's not my car, and I haven't been over it as finely as you have been.  If it would've been my car, I would've likely thought the same thing.

Your car IS that good.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car