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CLC Forum and my thoughts

Started by PRNDL, February 02, 2011, 05:29:24 PM

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PRNDL

I want to start off by saying that my intent here is not to point fingers or create a flame war. This is just my thoughts on the CLC forum as I see it today.

Ten years I have been on this forum, seen my fair share of ups and downs around here. The whole time we have managed to grow but recently, whether we like to admit it or not this forum has taken a turn for the worse.  We can argue the "name" rule until the cows come home, I really don't want to do that again. The facts are prior to the rule revision our forum was very active, full of GOOD content & 99% of the questions were answered correctly. Today, post rule revision, the forum has lost a substantial part of it's activity, content is weak and many questions go unanswered or even worse answered incorrectly. This is not the "standard of the world" forum that many CLC members are use to.

So what happened? Many CLC members that frequent this forum have chosen to no longer participate. For those of you that have been around here long enough, the silence is profound. Some may call it a silent protest.  These days many of us have found other avenues to continue our Cadillac discussions and other Cadillac forums have been the beneficiary of the CLC members refusal to comply with this name rule on this forum and that fact kills me! Some of us have put countless hours into the development of this forum(myself included) and now we are watching it erode from the vibrant community it once was.

Enough time has past since the rule revision to distinguish that the CLC is losing internet traffic on the ever growing information highway. This traffic also equates to lost business. On the $$$ side of things, Internet advertising fee's are directly tied to website traffic. The less traffic you have, the less you can charge. New membership is a concern as well. No need for folks to come here if they are getting the help they need on other non CLC forums.

We are too small of a group of enthusiast to be divided. As it stands now, we all lose. Also, we should not confuse the current tranquility around here with success. The waters may look calm but the undertow is pulling members away. I hope our leaders understand that.  For me, I was told these are the new rules, take it or leave it. I'll continue to leave it. Other public forums are happy to have me. Unfortunately, ignoring this forum is not easy for me. A 10 year habit is difficult to break.      
       
My thoughts as a dues paying member,
Lou Commisso
CLC #19028
CLC Cadill-Ikes Chapter Director

weephee

I'm surprised there is no response to this thread.   A paying member is crying out sorta to try and save a forum that is an invaluable resource to anyone restoring or researching a vintage vehicle and no one is offering support or discussion.   Does this mean no one cares.    I remember a few months back there was a terrific thread on restoring a 58, if I remember correctly, cadillac eldorado.   There was some kind of a dispute between the author and the people who manage this site and we all lost out when the thread ended abruptly.   I have not participated a whole lot here because I'm still looking for the vehicle I want to purchase and restore but I sure hope this site still stands when the time comes.    All websites are in the process of continuous evolution so hard and fast rules need to be reviewed from time to time with lots of input from participants.    Surely a group of like minded people can make this a number one place to get intelligent answers and advice on questions from novices and professionals alike.   Come on people,  this is an important issue that needs discussion.    Lets hear from you
Larry McPhee

Chris Conklin

First, you can discount my opinions with the fact that I've only been in the CLC and on the forum a couple years. I visit this forum and the Modified forum and the SoCal Chapter almost daily and I am registered in each using my correct name in all correspondence. I agree Lou, in my short involvement here it does seem that participation is low on the forum. But it does seem in the recent listings on the sleeve of the Self Starter that we are getting many new members in the CLC. I don't believe that members are leaving the CLC in droves, but perhaps people (not necessarily members) have left the forum. I'll make some bad generalizations and very unscientific comparisons about the "name rule";

It seems to me the majority of folks that had issues with the name rule were (and are) on the Modified forum and they abandoned this forum on principle (my apologies, bad generalization, but it is my impression). When I log in to the forums each day I will immediately go to the "Unread" items. The CLC forum will usually have a full list of items to peruse. The Modified board will have anywhere from zero items to three or four items (five today). And a couple of those are often Happy B-Day messages from the administrator to a forum member. Like you Lou, I do not state this to antagonize or point fingers or "add fuel to the fire". It seems to demonstrate the fact that there is a downturn everywhere regardless of your opinion of the name rule. Now, I have a tendency to blur the line between CLC members and forum participants. I have to remind myself that many people that frequent the forum are not members of the CLC. I think that fact alone may be a good reason to ask for a little more information than "Guest" named "caddykiller" is in the "Buy/Sell" arena seeking to sell knife sets with the Cadillac badge on the handle (being facetious, have some humor folks).  ;D

I believe somebody much more knowledgeable than I stated we are living in the "information age". What really effects on-line earning ability more than random hits to a web site is ACCESSIBLE REGISTERED USERS on that site. How did Facebook make billionaires out of 20 year olds? Everybody there indulges A LOT of personal data... WILLINGLY. Creates a huge data base of targets to market to. Does this site do that? No. Is it asking for more information than the knowledge of your given name? No. Can you lie and give any name that seems real as a guest? Yes, Mr. John Smith, you can (apologies again). But in any case, you are known as a Cadillac enthusiast of some sort ON THIS SITE ONLY. But advertising and leveraging that information is not accommodated here. So I don't take offense that I cannot call myself "supremebeingofallthatiscadillac", I'm fine with you all knowing I am Chris Conklin. But that's me, I'm not judging. My close friends do know me as the Supreme Being.  8) Cadillacs have nothing to do with that.  ;)

As you said Lou, things will be up and things will be down. Attribute it to the economy... the fading glory of American industry... the younger generation not being "joiners" (heck, I'm not usually a joiner!). The fast and easy access and anonymity of the internet can allow for a lot of things. The access to ideas and solutions is a great thing. The anonymity aspect (in my experience) opens up negative commentary and can accommodate nefarious intent. Are these things we are willing to accommodate as Cadillac enthusiasts in the information age? If we are to continue to exist and generate interest, of course, we have to. The internet and access to all of our enthusiast's knowledge can only serve to bring in new enthusiasts and a personal understanding of history. Does absolute anonymity accommodate more and better discourse about our hobby? I don't think so. I believe the opposite is true.

The entire world is in a down cycle. Let's continue to advance what we enjoy in this forum and let the interested catch up to us. Some consideration of the electronic age and applying control and safety is warranted. This digital world is a living and evolving thing and is still very, very young in it's existence. We need to utilize it to promote an appreciation of the past and we really need to better recruit Cadillac owners of the present in this medium. We will lose some along the way, unfortunately.
Chris Conklin

D.Yaros

As a regular user here, I do note the lessening of activity.  Lou makes some valid points that deserve being addressed.  Discretion may well be the better part of valor, but not at the cost of one's existence.
Dave Yaros
CLC #25195
55 Coupe de Ville
92 Allante
62 Olds  

You will find me on the web @:
http://GDYNets.atwebpages.com  -Dave's Den
http://graylady.atwebpages.com -'55 CDV site
http://www.freewebs.com/jeandaveyaros  -Saved 62 (Oldsmobile) Web Site
The home of Car Collector Chronicles.  A  monthly GDYNets newsletter focusing on classic car collecting.
http://www.scribd.com/D_Yaros/

Tom Hall 7485

Not much activity over at the Talisman Yahoo discussion group. 

I am getting my posts here answered quickly and courteously, allowing progress on an authenticity manual.  I think the responses are accurate.

I wonder if there are seasonal declines in this message forum.  Many people put cars and the hobby away for the winter.  And what an extraordinary winter it has been!

In another hobby club, a man contributed a multi-part article that the magazine editor chose to edit in part.  The contributor was so incensed about being edited that he never released the final installment.  That club and its publication are still very much around, but probably without the contributor.
Tom Hall, CLC Member 7485, Lifetime member since the mid-1990s.

Greg Powers

I think that there will be an ever changing group that choose to use this forum and will be happy to abide by any stated rules. I also know that you cannot be all things to all people and must decide your niche in the Cadillac world. I don't think that we are going to die because of a name rule and I must also note that many people are avoiding the "facebooks" of the internet because they are tired of the intrusions of all their new "friends".  I for one will not join any club that uses a "community-style" website and post here when I need help or have some advice to give. I give our club high marks for dealing with so many different opinions and holding us together. Sometimes it is a challenge to hold a regional meeting and keep everyone "friendly".
G.L. Powers>1954 Series 62 Sedan/1958 Fleetwood 60 Special-sold/1963 Series 62 Convertible-sold/1970 Fleetwood Brougham-sold/1994 Fleetwood Brougham/1971 Sedan Deville-sold/2000 Deville-sold/2001 DTS-sold/1976 Eldorado Convertible-sold/1983 Coupe Deville-sold/1990 Allante-sold/1990 and 1991 Brougham deElegance-sold/1992 Brougham-sold/Always looking!

J. Hood

Contrary to what many of you may think, there are A LOT of persons who oppose the revised name rule.  

Why aren't you getting more comments to that effect?  Because for the most part, they are gone, don't post here anymore.  

Sure you still have the guests coming along asking questions (and generally not complying with the name requirement) but if you sit back and think of persons who were regulars here and are no more, then you will understand the implications of what Lou is indicating.  

I strongly oppose the name rule as an unnecessary intrusion.  Don't want my name broadcast across the web when I'm mentioning that I'll be attending the GN all week or going to Hershey.  Personal choice, that's it.  

The CLC Admin can continue to tell themselves that they are doing this for the betterment of the Club, but I for one, and a couple dozen other persons that I personally know who feel the same way, can see no benefit, only detriment.  

Jim Stamper


     I have been thinking lately that there doesn't seem to be much activity here too. I can't say for sure, but I think a year ago there was much more going on, especially with pre-war cars, my area of interest.  Some names and knowledgeable people are totally off the screen. Maybe they peek once in awhile, maybe not, I miss their automotive knowledge.

     A year ago I checked in on our forum the first thing in the morning. AACA seems to come first now. Always new entries over there.  Once in a while someone gets feisty or political, and all of a sudden their thread is gone. Fine with me, these are car sites, but my point is it seems a lot of days go by with new threads, and the few that are started, get almost no response at all. Or after a week the responses are easily countable on one hand.

     I have always used my name here and at AACA, so the name rule doesn't bother me personally that much, but maybe everyone shouldn't have to be just like me.  Just my thoughts. The site is not as full of content as it was not that long ago.

                                              Sincerely;                    Jim Stamper CLC# 13470    First joined in 1968

JIM DICK CHITTWOOD

I could not have said it better Lou. The best post on the board!!!.. I left a long time ago I have seen too many good threads get trashed here.. I'm a young guy I have several cars not just Cadillacs.. this place turned me off over two years ago.. I came here looking for info for a car I bought. talked about doing some mods to it, you would have thought I stabed someone in the heart.. you guys want to attract young people you need not to be pin heads... I don't care what you do to you Cadillac.. Just drive it enjoy it..

I May be young but I Drive Some Bad Azz Cadillacs!  OH YEAH JIM D CHITTWOOD!!!!! fORMER clc member


Quote from: PRNDL on February 02, 2011, 05:29:24 PM
I want to start off by saying that my intent here is not to point fingers or create a flame war. This is just my thoughts on the CLC forum as I see it today.

Ten years I have been on this forum, seen my fair share of ups and downs around here. The whole time we have managed to grow but recently, whether we like to admit it or not this forum has taken a turn for the worse.  We can argue the "name" rule until the cows come home, I really don't want to do that again. The facts are prior to the rule revision our forum was very active, full of GOOD content & 99% of the questions were answered correctly. Today, post rule revision, the forum has lost a substantial part of it's activity, content is weak and many questions go unanswered or even worse answered incorrectly. This is not the "standard of the world" forum that many CLC members are use to.

So what happened? Many CLC members that frequent this forum have chosen to no longer participate. For those of you that have been around here long enough, the silence is profound. Some may call it a silent protest.  These days many of us have found other avenues to continue our Cadillac discussions and other Cadillac forums have been the beneficiary of the CLC members refusal to comply with this name rule on this forum and that fact kills me! Some of us have put countless hours into the development of this forum(myself included) and now we are watching it erode from the vibrant community it once was.

Enough time has past since the rule revision to distinguish that the CLC is losing internet traffic on the ever growing information highway. This traffic also equates to lost business. On the $$$ side of things, Internet advertising fee's are directly tied to website traffic. The less traffic you have, the less you can charge. New membership is a concern as well. No need for folks to come here if they are getting the help they need on other non CLC forums.

We are too small of a group of enthusiast to be divided. As it stands now, we all lose. Also, we should not confuse the current tranquility around here with success. The waters may look calm but the undertow is pulling members away. I hope our leaders understand that.  For me, I was told these are the new rules, take it or leave it. I'll continue to leave it. Other public forums are happy to have me. Unfortunately, ignoring this forum is not easy for me. A 10 year habit is difficult to break.      
       
My thoughts as a dues paying member,
Lou Commisso
CLC #19028
CLC Cadill-Ikes Chapter Director

Glen

I am not in favor of the name rule either.  But because it exists I am careful of what I post. 

In response to Steven Tuck, yes I do know who I mail letters and make phone calls to.  But those are reasonably private. When I make a phone call it is not on national TV with names.  My letters are not on billboards along the freeway.  That is the issue.  This is a public forum and by using real names we can be easily be tracked down. 

One thread with details of a great restoration project was removed from this board because of the rule.  It was a loss to the club.  The person posting was afraid people lurking on this board would track him down and steal his tools and or cars.   

Nearly all boards allow handles; it allows the posters to be more open.  In a loosely monitored board it gets out of hand and makes for rude and confrontational board.  We certainly don’t want that here. 

I don’t know about Simple Machines but I believe many systems like this allow the user to give their real name to the mods only and use a handle to the general user. 

I’m not sure what to do about those that use this board and don’t join the club.  On the one hand the club is about preserving all Cadillac and La Salle cars, not just cars owned by club members.  But it would be nice if repeat users would join. 
   
Glen
Glen Houlton CLC #727 
CLCMRC benefactor #104

D.Yaros

As for seasonal activity being a factor, one would think the board activity would increase in the dead of winter?  I can tell you that I am not doing either a lot of driving, or of turning wrenches with 20 + inches of snow on the ground and temps hovering around 0F!

I cannot believe the current situation is solely related to the name rule.  For discussion purposes, let's assume it is.  Why the rule?  By that I mean what evil was it intended to address; bots, phising, bad guys?  Whatever the evil, are there not means to both accomplish that goal, and accommodate members concerns over giving away important data?

I believe there are.  As someone has already pointed out.  One must furnish correct data (Name/Email/Whatever) to the moderators, but may use any handle they want.

What is unreasonable about that?  Are we so inflexible, or high and mighty, that we have the luxury of saying, "It's my way or the highway"?  I sincerely hope not!  There is the adage about "cutting off one's nose to spite one's face" ... .
Dave Yaros
CLC #25195
55 Coupe de Ville
92 Allante
62 Olds  

You will find me on the web @:
http://GDYNets.atwebpages.com  -Dave's Den
http://graylady.atwebpages.com -'55 CDV site
http://www.freewebs.com/jeandaveyaros  -Saved 62 (Oldsmobile) Web Site
The home of Car Collector Chronicles.  A  monthly GDYNets newsletter focusing on classic car collecting.
http://www.scribd.com/D_Yaros/

J I Garner CLC # 23406

I still look at this forum first thing each morning and have noticed the lack of activity. What is wrong with anyone using any name they choose as long as they are registered with the club by that name and their real name and email address is known by the moderator? Lou was a great contributor to this forum as were others who are missing.
Sometimes the the greatest progress starts with a giant step backwards.
Jim

weephee

I am not a paying member only because I have yet to find the car I am looking for.   I read the articles in this forum for inspiration and the restoration blog inspires me to take on a project more that anything else.   To my way of thinking, the lose of members who show the progress of their projects is definitely  a deal breaker for me.   I don't know who the moderators of this site are but I would expect to hear their views as well.   If they are reading these comments and don't feel compelled to comment, that in itself sends a message,  although not a good one.

Larry McPhee
Soon to he a member I hope.
Larry McPhee

76eldo

Larry,

Some of the best cars are for sale in the classified section of the Self Starter.  That's the publication we receive monthly.

As for the forum, it's been a great help to me, I have been active on this for a few years now.

More people use the internet, even a lot of the "old timers" in the hobby that never had computers before.  This resource is here, and I think that the message board format universally, not just here, is seeing less activity.  I manage a website. message board, and Facebook page for a big name band and they have way more "fans" of their Facebook page than members on their message board.

Facebook comments do not remain available to see and are not searchable like they are on this message board.  I would say don't worry about the level of participation, only worry about the quality of the content and the moderators here are doing a great job of keeping things running right, in my opinion.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Tom Hall 7485

Is there a reason for not wanting to reveal your identity other than security concerns?  (Concern about burglary, car theft, identity theft, kidnapping, etc?)  If there is, please tell us what it is.
Tom Hall, CLC Member 7485, Lifetime member since the mid-1990s.

Tom Hall 7485

Why the desire for privacy?  That's my question.  I'm well aware that some people don't want their cars listed in the international membership directory or in regional directories (one of which I used to make), but, other than security concerns, why not use one's name here?

People who truly dislike attention generally should not post to message forums.  They will call attention to themselves by doing so. 
Tom Hall, CLC Member 7485, Lifetime member since the mid-1990s.

AHBrown

I personally think the old car hobby, as many of us knew of years gone by, is slowly coming to an end.  I just don't think younger people have the enthusiasm for the older cars as many of us do.  I noticed that there are fewer ads in the Self Starter, and the prices being asked are, well, shall we say, a little over the top.

quadfins

I agree. The price of admission is out of reach for the majority of the younger folk. Myself included. I was exceptionally fortunate in my aquisitions.

In addition, I think that we have an unfortunate lack of public exposure. When we keep our pristine museum pieces in our garages, or in enclosed trailers, and only bring them out for a brief parade or occassional show, the public and younger enthusiasts don't even know they exist.

Now, I understand that it is not always practical to drive your 1931 V-16 Cabriolet 500 miles to the Shriners cruise-in, but we must do more to get our cars into the limelight so they can inspire the next generation of enthusiasts.

Jim
Jim Eccleston
1961 Coupe de Ville
BATILAC
Senior Crown
DeCou Driving Award x 4

baronsmokes

I do agree with you.I love Cadillacs.I bought my first a 1960 convertiblle in 1979.I now own a 1959 Cadillac.I also owned a Cadillac Allante and was a member of the club.The Allante club forum was very  good at help when repairing your car.I do like this forum but find it weak at helping to answer your questions about car problems.
Thank You
Brian
Brian Francis

Steve W

Personally, I could care less about using my real name or not. But that's just MY opinion.

And I could care less if someone wants to call themselves the "Grand Poobah of Whatever". It just doesn't matter. Their choice. Not my business.

If I, using my REAL name, get out of line or start acting like a jerk, then kick me out! If "Pooh" has a lot of good insight and wishes to share knowledge and experiences that might benefit others...then God bless him for taking the time and effort to want to do so...regardless of what he calls himself and why! Goodwill is goodwill.

I mean...I don't have to believe in YOUR God to defend your right to believe in Him as you see fit!

Not that I think that this little forum or club is as important as the Almighty...but I think you get my point.

I never really got involved in this discussion before because...well, who am I to say ANYTHING about anything. I'm just a guy with an old Cadillac trying to figure stuff out, and share what I learn with the next guy.

However, when I first became aware of this forum I was impressed!!! The knowledge and the friendliness and the camaraderie were simply amazing. I learned a lot. And I noticed certain individuals were VERY consistently offering great advice. Posts were acknowledged promptly and questions were answered with thoughtfulness and integrity...and a little humor. And when I saw an opportunity to chime in with a little helpful advice, I did.

After awhile, I was thinking, OK...maybe I should actually JOIN the CLC. NOT because someone said I HAD to, but because I thought I could be proud to join an organization like this. Then...almost on cue...things started changing. 

I don't need to go into all of that here, but there just seemed to be a sort of, oh I don't know, a ...narrow-mindedness...creeping in. And a sense of humorlessness. And from names I had not seen before. Names that were followed by numbers. Yet these names were unfamiliar to me, because they never seemed to pop up when I was seeking advice or asking questions. Maybe that would have been different if I owned a dead-mint 58 Eldorado Brougham or a zero-mile v16. I just started to feel like I had to sit at the kid's table because I drove a 68 CdV as a daily driver, and that I had not joined yet.  And some of the names I had grown used to seeing and looked forward to reading were going away. So much for Goodwill.

"Why the desire for privacy?"  Who cares? If someone desires privacy, let them have it!
A more appropriate question might be "Why deny someone's desire for privacy?"

And for some, its not even about privacy. It's about choice.

As always, just my two cents. Delete it if you want.




Steve Waddington
1968 Coupe deVille
North Hollywood, CA
CLC Member # 32866