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1941 Model 6723

Started by Andrew Armitage, June 07, 2011, 03:29:14 PM

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Andrew Armitage

Had the carb restored by Daytona Parts Co.  They did a great job!  Here are before and after pictures.  The carb was almost too pretty to put back on that rough looking intake!
Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

gary griffin

Andrew, I have been enjoying your posts. I am in a parallel world with my 1942-6719. Mine ran when I bought it but during restoration I decided to rebuild the engine. My car was originally Antionnette Blue so I am repainting it to that color. I will probably go with the Signal Red wheels also. You are blazing he trail for me and I will continue to follow your posts.
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Andrew Armitage

Gary, I'm glad that your enjoying watching my progress.  I was watching your progress and wishing that I could get things done as fast as you!

As far as my progress recently, I just replaced the fuel pump with a rebuilt model (from Arizona Vintage Parts) this past week.  Now with that and the freshly rebuilt carb, my fuel delivery problems should be done.

Notice that in the picture of the old pump, the bowl is empty.  That was after quite a bit of turning the engine over.  After installing the rebuilt one, the bowl filled up immediately as it should.

But unfortunately, the car won't start.  I'm not sure what I missed but after quite a bit of looking around, I'm out of ideas.

I have a friend that I consider to be an expert coming out tomorrow to help me dignose what the hang up is.

I seem to have this thing with fixing things until they don't work anymore!
Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

harry s

Andrew, Can't wait to hear what the problem is or was. In the meantime a few things to check. You should be able to look into the carb while moving the linkage and see a spray of gas or pour a small amount into the carb (pour first, then attempt starting) to see if the car starts. If not and there is no sign of trying to start you probably have had an electrical problem develope. If the car does start after pouring some gas in and then stops the float is probably stuck. Good Luck, Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Andrew Armitage

Harry, thanks for the tip but it turns out it wasn't the carb (which was just rebuilt by Daytona Parts Company).  But you are right, there wasn't even a hint of ignition or catching when turning the engine over.  It was electrical.

My friend, Norm, drove two hours to my house to help me out.  After hearing the engine turn over, he told me that it was fighting against the compression which ment the timing was severely off.  After about an hour of checking the shop manual to see how things are supposed to be and how they were on my car, this is what we found:

The whole distributor tower was put in incorrectly sometime over the past 70 years for unknown reason.  When I replaced the distributor cap, I replaced the wires according to the diagram in the shop manual.  That is, I didn't switch them from the old cap to the new one, one by one in the same order.  The car wouldn't start after that.

After setting the #1 cylinder at TDC, and pulling the distributor cap off, the rotor was pointing at the #8 cylinder!  So we took all the plug wires off the cap and placed the #1 cylinder plug wire in the #8 spot according to the diagram and then placed all the wires in the proper order from there around.

Fired up immediately.

Used the timing light to set the timing and that was that.  Took it out for a test drive and everything is great.

Sometime in the future, I'll have to pull the whole distributor tower out and replace it in the correct position.  Whoever took it out last, shifted the gears by one tooth over and then just shifted all the wires over one spot to get the firing order correct instead of pulling it out and placing it in correctly.  I have no idea if there was a reason or if it was lazyness.  But now that I know what the problem was, I can correct it without just guessing and throwing more parts at it.

After my test ride, I took it for gas and let it stretch it's legs on a 40 mile trip.  And it drove great!  But now I feel the brakes grabbing so I need to pull the wheel cylinders apart and rebuild them and flush the fluid.  But that's no big deal.  I'll try and do that next weekend when I have some extra time.

A big thanks to my friend Norm Kortus for all his help!

Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

harry s

Andrew, Glad you were able to figure it out. It is always interesting to see some of the things they did to keep these cars running. You are probably right about someone putting the distributor tower in and found out it was not lined up so rather than do it right they made a quick adjustment of the wires. It sure is nice to get it right and take that drive. Good Luck with the brakes, Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

gary griffin

#26
   Thanks for the tip on having the carb rebuilt, I contacted them and am sending mine. A local carb guy gave a lower bid but I sure like the way yours looks. Is it performing well.

   How about posting a picture of the car with the wheel covers on? I am in the throes of making the wheel color/wheel cover decision. I am considering the small wheel covers with the trim rings but have a couple of good large wheel covers already. I will make the decision with my old lady soon.

   Do you have fender skirts? I found a pair and am planning on installing them also.

   As to your distributor being installed wrong, in my opinion it was installed differently but the car ran well so it was not really wrong was it? I ran into that many years ago but I was the guy without a manual and  my car ran fine but the poor guy who may have worked on it later could have had a problem. I put the distributer in and brought the number 1 piston to TDC and then hooked up a coil and found the spark in the distributer cap  and called that hole number 1 and installed the rest of the wires by the firing order. I think I was 180 out instead of a tooth but never found out. I bought that car partially dissasembled.

   Keep up the good work on the blog!!
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

Andrew Armitage

Gary,

I'm extremely happy with what Daytona Parts Company did with my carb.  In my opinion, it's worth the few extra dollars, they really do top notch work.  Even the way they packaged the carb up to send back to me showed that they really pay attention to detail.  A very professional company.  I wouldn't hesitate to use them again in the future.

I did put the small wheel covers on to see what they looked like but in my opinion, there was too much red showing.  I didn't put the trim rings on because I didn't want to scrape up the wheels.  After trying out both, the full dish did it for me, hands down.  Sorry, no pictures though of the small wheel covers with the red wheels.

I'd love to have the fender skirts on my car but I just don't have a set yet.  I think they make the car look more formal.

As far as the distributor, I think your completely right.  I don't think there's any harm in it, it's just not 100% correct.  The only issue is that it turns the distributor slightly clockwise and makes it hard to get at the screw that holds the main line wire that runs to the coil.  If the car should ever pass on to someone else and I haven't corrected it, I'd be sure to let them know so they don't have the same problem I did.
Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

Andrew Armitage

So I go to inspect / rebuild the wheel cylinders for the rear brakes which are hanging up.  Dealing with the rear brake drums now.  What a pain!

I drew in the shoes, flattened out the lock washer on the axle and loosened up the axle nut.  Sprayed penetrating lube on the axle and even heated it up with a torch after it wouldn't give with the hub puller.  Still no luck.  I'm going to leave the hub puller on over night and let the penetrating compound work it's way in there over night.  I don't think the neighbors want to hear me pounding metal on metal all night long, so I'm calling it a night.

Looks like someone from a previous post suggested giving the hub puller some good wacks on the head every now and again to get the hub to break loose.  I guess I'll try that tomorrow too.

Seems like when I hit the dog bone on the puller, the wheel turns too (fractions of an inch each time).  Maybe I'll try a 3 foot long breaker bar on the hub puller nut or try an impact wrench on it.  Maybe the vibration will break it loose.  I'll post up how I finally do it.  I think it's just a matter of time before it gives.

Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

Andrew Armitage

No answers yet.  Worked on it for hours yesterday.  Hammering the dog bone, loosening it, spraying with penetrating compound, heating the drum, tightening the drum puller again, pounding away, loosening it, tightening it, pounding on it some more, etc.

Couldn't get it still.  My neighbor came over and told me to bring the car to his shop next week and we'll use equipment that he uses on heavy trucks to get them off.

I'll post up how that goes next week.

So with that, I moved on to a different project that I could accomplish quickly (note to self... nothing is a quick project).  I went to replace the accelerator return spring on the carb because what was on the car was two bent up Mickey Mouse springs that, although they did the job, the gas pedal was sitting low and the idle adjustment screw had to be turned way out to compensate.  Well, with the new spring in there (AutoZone generic $5 special), the pedal was now sitting nice and firm and had some tension behind it. 

But when I started the car, the idle was way too slow and it died out.  Started it again and keep giving it gas but as soon as I let up on it to jump out and adjust the carb, it puttered out in about 5 seconds.  Then it wouldn't start and I think I flooded the engine trying to restart it!  I was out of time and had to leave for Thanksgiving dinner, so I put the battery tender on it and put it up for the day.

Went back today and again, no ignition.  I checked all the plug wires and put a tester on a plug which showed it getting electricity.  I pulled a plug which looked to be gas fouled.  Again, no time.  I had to get ready for work.

My plan for tomorrow is to pull the plugs and clean them off.  Then try again to restart the car after increasing the idle speed some to adjust for the new accelerator return spring.
Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

harry s

Andrew, I feel your pain with the rear wheel removal. Try inserting a piece of pipe or something ridgid between the legs of the puller and contacting the floor so as to keep it from turning when hammering. If that doesn't work a 3/4" impact will surely do the job. As far as the idling situation. it sounds like once you get the idle adjustment screw set to correct idle you will need to adjust the linkage from the carb to the pedal. The other thing that helps keep the linkage true is to have small springs and washers (as original) where the connection points are. Good Luck, Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Andrew Armitage

Harry,

That sounds like a great idea with the pipe against the floor.  The issue I had was that I got to a point that hitting the dog bone would only turn the wheel too (even with the car in 1st gear).  The 3/4 impact wrench sounds like an even better option (although I don't have one...).

I didn't have time to try and get the car running again today but will have a couple hours to give it a go tomorrow.

I'll post up my results.
 
Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

Andrew Armitage

#32
I was able to successfully get her going again today!

I pulled the plugs like I had planned and used brake clean and a soft brissle toothbrush to clean up the electrodes on the plugs.  Some were worse than others.  I let them air dry and left the plug holes in the cylinder heads open so that they could air out too.  After taking a break, I installed them back into the heads with new crush washers and torqued them down to 10 ft-lbs.

I adjusted the idle screw in to increase the idle speed to keep her going if she started.

I also propped the choke plate open with the end of a screwdriver to ensure that I didn't continue adding a rich mixture to an already flooded engine (I wasn't sure how bad it was flooded or if it was still flooded).

Pushed the start button and she started right up like nothing had been wrong!  After the engine / carb warmed up, I adjusted the idle back down to where it should be and took a drive to test everything out and get the engine up to operating temperature and give it a good run.

The throttle is much more responsive with the new accelerator return spring.

I guess I learned how easy it is to foul out spark plugs!  I had the car running less than 5 minutes to get them that fouled.

Now back to the brakes!
Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

Andrew Armitage

A thread was started in the Technical / Authenticity forum about restoring wheel medalions. 

http://www.cadillaclasalleclub.org/forum/index.php?topic=117398.0

I'm going to attempt (as a layman) to restore one.  I'll post up my results and how much it costs in time and money.

I started with the worst medalion of my extra set.  So far I've spent an hour polishing with metal polish, a rag, a toothbrush and q-tips to clean up 1/2 a medalion.

So far:
1 man hour labor
$7 for supplies (polish)

Here's what it's looking like so far.

Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

gary griffin

#34
Hi Andrew,

   I just went out and bought the supplies to do mine also. I bought a stripper and my old army days favorite Brasso brass polish along with the paints and clear coat and brushes. Spent over $60 in three different stores to get it all. Hope it comes out well. I will use a buffing wheel on a drill though as I dont have the patience you seem to have.
Keep the post going so i can get some hints before I start. I just ordered a new battery for my camera and will post results also.

Gary Griffin
Gary Griffin

1940 LaSalle 5029 4 door convertible sedan
1942 Cadillac 6719 restoration almost complete?
1957 Cadillac 60-special (Needs a little TLC)
2013 Cadillac XTS daily driver

David King (kz78hy)

Here is a totally off the wall idea, but it might work.

Take it to your local jeweler and see if they could ultrasonically clean it.  That does not take away any detail in the base metal and is way easier on the finger skin.

If they can't, maybe buy an unit for yourself.  That might not be to much money and be equal to buffing, polish and other materials, plus no hard labor.

Just another goofy idea.

David
David King
CLC 22014  (life)
1958 Eldorado Brougham 615
1959 Eldorado Brougham 56- sold
1960 Eldorado Brougham 83- sold
1998 Deville d'Elegance
1955 Eldorado #277
1964 Studebaker Commander
2012 Volt
CLCMRC benefactor 197

Director and Founder, Eldorado Brougham Chapter
Past President, Motor City Region

Rare Parts brand suspension parts Retailer via Keep'em Running Automotive

Andrew Armitage

Quote from: David King  (kz78hy) on December 05, 2011, 10:48:34 PM
Here is a totally off the wall idea, but it might work.

Take it to your local jeweler and see if they could ultrasonically clean it.  That does not take away any detail in the base metal and is way easier on the finger skin.

If they can't, maybe buy an unit for yourself.  That might not be to much money and be equal to buffing, polish and other materials, plus no hard labor.

Just another goofy idea.

David

David,

You're absolutely correct.  I'm looking into buying one.  They don't look to be that expensive ($35-$50).  I'm not looking to spend 8+ hours polishing these wheel medalions so that I can then spend even more time prepping and painting them.  At that rate, purchasing perfect reproduction medalions at $65 a piece is a much better option.


Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado

kkarrer

Andrew,
     If you want to paint those wheels Vincinnes Red, get in touch with the guys at Auto Color Library. (www.autocolorlibrary.com) They have the correct red in single stage urethane.  Have them reference my order for it if that helps.  Your car is looking good.  I'll post some new pictures of mine soon.  I'm just about to put the frame components back on and then put the engine and tranny on the frame and lower the body down.  It'll be a relief to get that all done and have some room in my shop again.
Ken Karrer 1941 6227 D coupe

1941-7523

Hey Andrew,

I am not sure how far you have gotten with your medalions, but one suggestion that I have not seen on the forum (or maybe just did not notice) was using a fine (000) grade steal wool. I did mine tonight and it took me about 8 to 10 hours to clean, polish, and paint 7 hub cap centers and the two hood emblems. I used the steal wool with some brass polish and once I had a decent shine I took the polishing wheel and some polishing compound to them to bring out that shine. I will post some pictures under my restoration thread for the 7519.

P.S. I have not forgotten about you. I was out of town getting my new car and lost track with the holiday's. The package has arrived and I will get things taken care of quickly. Thanks again. :)

Andrew Armitage

Quote from: 1941-7523 on December 31, 2011, 02:47:24 AM
Hey Andrew,

I am not sure how far you have gotten with your medalions, but one suggestion that I have not seen on the forum (or maybe just did not notice) was using a fine (000) grade steal wool. I did mine tonight and it took me about 8 to 10 hours to clean, polish, and paint 7 hub cap centers and the two hood emblems. I used the steal wool with some brass polish and once I had a decent shine I took the polishing wheel and some polishing compound to them to bring out that shine. I will post some pictures under my restoration thread for the 7519.

P.S. I have not forgotten about you. I was out of town getting my new car and lost track with the holiday's. The package has arrived and I will get things taken care of quickly. Thanks again. :)

Matthew,

I didn't get much farther than I posted.  I got an ultrasonic jewelry cleaner for Christmas and tried it out.  It worked really well for getting the dirt off of the medallions, but even after several cycles and me increasing the amount of agent I mixed in, they didn't come out looking anything close to shiney.  But did cut down on the amount of time I spent polishing them out for the same result as before and it did remove all the old paint in the corners that I couldn't get to.  The 000 grade steel wool is a great idea.

I saw your pictures under your thread, they look great!  They almost look too good to put on those hupcaps I sent you!

Congrats on the new car.  It really is an addiction.  I was contemplating looking at a '41 75 series that's for sale not too far from me.  Why?  I don't know.  Keeping the 3 old cars I have now running and on the road is almost a full time job and I have no space for the ones I have let alone another one!  I guess it's like saving a stray dog.

Good luck with the two projects.  You'll be a resident expert on 41-75 series Cadillacs once you're done.

I figured with the holidays and all, that you were busy.  No worries.  Get to it whenever you get the chance.

And one more thing... What type / brand of paint did you use?  Color codes / names?
Andrew Armitage
Plainfield, IL
1941 67 Series
1966 Fleetwood 75 Series
1985 Seville
1991 Eldorado