Author Topic: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration  (Read 19971 times)

Offline DeVille68

  • Posts: 448
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30616
  • Name: Nicolas Hubacher
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #180 on: October 31, 2017, 04:03:47 PM »
Here is the crank from the bottom. You can clearly see the damage on rod journal nr. 8
The crank number is 1486424, so this the correct crank for 472 for 68-69.

Next, I will measure the cylinders, pistons, crank, cam, etc...
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline DeVille68

  • Posts: 448
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30616
  • Name: Nicolas Hubacher
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #181 on: November 05, 2017, 03:56:39 AM »
Disassembly of the front suspension continued. All the bushings and balljoints are pressed out. Ready to sandblast and paint. Need to wait for my new parts to arrive.
I created my own tools made from scrap metal parts. Worked perfectly, you don't need to spend a lot of money on tools. Just use your scrap pieces and make your own tools. The shop manual has detailed descriptions on how to press out the balljoints and the A-arm shaft bushings. There is a drawing with some measurements given. I made my own piece according to these descriptions.

Here are a few pictures. 

Someone replaced two balljoints before. I you look closely you see that all four balljoints are different.

The last two pictures show the passenger side A-arm with the balljoint. You can see that the balljoint is oriented such that the stop of the ball is towards the front of the car. Not sure why or what this does.
There was a discussion lately http://forums.cadillaclasalleclub.org/index.php?topic=147058.0 on the side specifics of the A-Arms.
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline Bentley

  • Posts: 86
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30183
  • Name: WBentley
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #182 on: November 08, 2017, 02:28:06 PM »
Are you planning to install new coil springs when you put it back together?
Wes Bentley
CLC # 30183

Offline DeVille68

  • Posts: 448
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30616
  • Name: Nicolas Hubacher
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #183 on: November 10, 2017, 12:20:11 PM »
I was thinking about that and asked probably the most rebuttable shop in the us that produced new springs for classic car, but I did not get a clear answer.
They have no damage, are not rusted so I guess my originals are still fine.
So I just clean them and paint them black again.
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline Bentley

  • Posts: 86
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30183
  • Name: WBentley
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #184 on: November 10, 2017, 06:17:13 PM »
Check with Scott Minesinger. I recall on one of his posts, he said he replaced his. I'm not sure if the difference in ride quality is significant, but it would seem like it should be better with new springs. When I had my front end rebuilt I did not replace the springs. I kind of wish I did, since it was already taken apart anyway. But even with the original springs back in, and all other parts replaced, the ride quality is great, and it tracks straight as an arrow.
Wes Bentley
CLC # 30183

Offline clarkent5477

  • Posts: 6
  • Name: Clark Dilley
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #185 on: November 25, 2017, 12:23:35 PM »
The dash rosewood came out exceptional!

I finally finished my wood veneer restoration.

Before and after: my freshly restored original Brazilian rosewood veneer! 68 was the last year Cadillac used real wood. The insert that OPGI sells is wrong, wrong type of wood. I found the correct wood, if enough people are interested I might reproduce some.

The wood itself is glued to a thin metal sheet. This assembly is then glued to the instrument panel. I just used a professional contact force glue.

It turned out very good. What a difference this wood make. I was driving around for three years now without the wood (just the shiny back panel)
Clark Dilley
Los Angeles, CA
'66 Fleetwood Brougham

Offline clarkent5477

  • Posts: 6
  • Name: Clark Dilley
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #186 on: November 25, 2017, 03:16:49 PM »
I picked up a 1966 Fleetwood last week and this thread has thoroughly inspired me! I look forward to seeing your progress!
Clark Dilley
Los Angeles, CA
'66 Fleetwood Brougham

Offline DeVille68

  • Posts: 448
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30616
  • Name: Nicolas Hubacher
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #187 on: November 25, 2017, 04:10:22 PM »
The dash rosewood came out exceptional!

Thank you very much!
If you need measurements or help, let me know.

Clark, keep on reading because I will post soon details about the engine rebuild and progress of the suspension rebuild!

Best regards,
Nicolas
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline DeVille68

  • Posts: 448
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30616
  • Name: Nicolas Hubacher
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #188 on: December 04, 2017, 01:51:55 PM »
Again some progress on rebuild the engine.
I accurately measured the combustion chamber of my original heads. Those have the number 1486250 and should have a chamber of 76cc.
Below you can see the my method: I used a plexiglas, where I drilled a small hole somewhere in the plate but in such a way that I could position the hole near the edge of the chamber. (picture 1)
You can see that I used some silicon grease on the circumference to make sure the plexiglas is water tight. I then used some magnets to secure it on the head. (picture 2)  Then you just fill up a pipette and ad up the cc's you put in the chamber.

--> I measured exactly 76cc

I also measured my old 8.5:1 compression pistons, those with the large dish. The dish is about 0.380'' deep.  Those turned out to be roughly 45cc

--> Does anyone has a cc number of the "high" compression 10.5:1 pistons?

(I learned in the mean time that those were actually closer to 9.8:1, and also the ones you can buy from Egge are 9.8:1)
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline DeVille68

  • Posts: 448
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30616
  • Name: Nicolas Hubacher
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #189 on: December 04, 2017, 02:11:21 PM »
Next up was degreeing my cam. Since nobody commented on the pictures of the cam that I posted a few weeks ago I figured that I need to measure the cam, else I would not know what my baseline was.
So, below you see some pictures on how I did it. I printed out a large degree wheel drawing from the internet and glued this onto a plexiglas. Then I drilled a tight hole exactly in the middle. The screw for the crankshaft secures the wheel tightly.

A wire bent around a screw in the water pump hole provides a pointer.
I mounted one dial gauge on top of the deck to find TDC accurately. The second one was mounted with a magnetic base in such a way the the indicator was straight in line with the lifter. (I inserted two lifters for intake and exhaust on nr. 1 piston)

Then you find TDC, rotate the degree wheel and arrange the pointer such that they point to TDC. From there you can just start rotating the crank and watch the dial gauge as the lift increases. I took measurements along the full lift curve. On the downward slope I had to push the lifter with a screw driver just slightly, because there was too much friction. The lifter would not want to follow the lobe. But it turned out fairly accurate.

Here is what I measured:
Picture 4: You can see my measurements that I took at different lifts.
Picture 5: This is the data visualized. On the vertical axis is lobe lift in inches and horizontally is crank degree.


When you look at the maximum lift you can see that there has been some wear on the lobes, there is about 0.002'' to 0.004'' of wear.

Also what is interesting, is that I cannot relate my data to the claim you often hear that Cadillac retarded the cam about -21 degrees.
I think the mistake people do is that they use the factory published numbers and start calculate from there. Well those simple calculations are not accurate enough if the lobe is not symmetric. Which apparently, it is not.

The picture and table clearly shows that the closing profile of the exhaust is very long.
So, when I use degrees measured at 0.006'' lobe lift I get similar reasonable cam data as todays cams use.
I measured that LSA is 116 and Timing is 4 advanced.
(same timing as Lunati, MTS and CompCams use)
The LSA however is quite wide.


I hope this post will help you and maybe you also degree your cam so we can compare and find common specification of this original cam.

Best regards,
Nicolas

« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:48:17 AM by DeVille68 »
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline Caddyholic

  • Posts: 202
  • 1961 Series 62 Convertible 1962 Coupe Deville
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #29238
  • Name: Jim Lumma
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #190 on: December 04, 2017, 04:11:49 PM »
NICK

How do you adjust the cam timing? look like you just verified the cam specs. 
I got myself a Cadillac but I can't afford the gasoline (AC/DC Down Payment Blues)

1961 Series 62 Convertible Coupe http://bit.ly/1RCYsVZ
1962 Coupe Deville

Offline savemy67

  • Posts: 748
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #29202
  • Name: Christopher Winter
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #191 on: December 04, 2017, 07:52:38 PM »
Hello Nicolas,

Very well done!  I can appreciate your efforts, but I am jealous - you have two dial indicators, whereas I have only one  :)

I am confused about one thing.  In your post you say "The picture and table clearly shows that the closing profile of the intake is very long."  Did you mean to say the closing profile of the exhaust is very long?  From the graph it looks like the exhaust closing overlaps the intake opening.

I would not think this is too unusual as valve overlap can be used to help cool the exhaust valves (with the inrush of much cooler intake fuel/air), and can alter the exhaust gas profile for emissions control purposes.  Is it correct that your engine is not equipped with an EGR valve?

Your post also mentioned that you measured some wear on the cam lobes.  What did the bottom of the lifters look like?  Were they all slightly convex?  Will you be using new lifters and or cam (sorry if I missed this in a previous post)?  If you replace the cam, do you plan to do the "degreeing" task again?  Keep up the good work.

Christopher Winter
Christopher Winter
1967 Sedan DeVille hardtop

Offline DeVille68

  • Posts: 448
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30616
  • Name: Nicolas Hubacher
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #192 on: December 05, 2017, 01:52:12 AM »
NICK

How do you adjust the cam timing? look like you just verified the cam specs.

Hi Jim,
well the LSA can not be changed. The installed center line (or cam timing) can be changed using a gear with multiple slots for the keyway or using an offset keyway. Most of the gears with multiple slots allow for + und - 4 degrees.

The purpose of my measurements was indeed to just verify the cam specs and to measure the cam specifications at today's standards, that is 0.006'' and 0.050'' of lobe lift.
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)

Offline DeVille68

  • Posts: 448
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #30616
  • Name: Nicolas Hubacher
Re: 1968 DeVille Convertible - Restoration
« Reply #193 on: December 05, 2017, 02:00:16 AM »
Very well done!  I can appreciate your efforts, but I am jealous - you have two dial indicators, whereas I have only one  :)
I am even more jealous because those two indicators actually belong to my father! :-D


I am confused about one thing.  In your post you say "The picture and table clearly shows that the closing profile of the intake is very long."  Did you mean to say the closing profile of the exhaust is very long?  From the graph it looks like the exhaust closing overlaps the intake opening.
correct, that was a mistake. It is now corrected above.

Exactly, that is precisely the reason why there is such a long closing ramp. But I am no cam specialist, so maybe someone here will know.


I don't have a EGR valve. There was just an air pump used in 68, which was also removed on my engine long time ago.

The lifters look very good. Almost brand new. Must have been replaced some years ago.

I am not yet sure if I should replace the cam or not. If I compare my measurements to the specifications of the MTS #5 the difference is not too great. So I don't know how much torque I will gain by using a different cam.
Seems that lunati has a cam with a separate lobe for intake and exhaust (just like the original), where as MTS#5 is the same for both lobes. (just like comp cams too).

But I will definitely degree any new cam I might use!

Best regards,
Nicolas
1968 Cadillac DeVille Convertible (silver pine green)