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what to buy??

Started by Dulcidog2, July 18, 2014, 08:30:47 PM

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Dan LeBlanc

#20
Corey

First all, I see no evidence of bullying in this thread, therefore, it stands.

Secondly, we are merely attempting to clarify the difference between factory built and factory authorized.

The mid 80's convertibles were Factory authorized and sold through Cadillac dealers.  General Motors did not have the final work of the body in their facility, a factory authorized outside firm did.

Allante bodies were designed and built by Pininfarina and shipped to the Hamtramck facility for final assembly.  One could infer Allantes were a bit of a grey area as the final assembly was done by General Motors, however, they were not built entirely by General Motors.

If you really want to muddy the waters, there's also the 1999 Fleetwood Limited that was sold through GM dealers but the lengthening of the body was done by a coachbuilder, however the car even had its own brochure and was marketed by Cadillac.  Therefore, once again, not built entirely by General Motors.

The point we were trying to make in the discussion is that the last of the convertibles done by Cadillac was in the 70's where the entire process from stamping the sheet metal to rolling off the assembly line, including design, etc, was completely done by GM with no outside subcontractors working on the bodies.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

76eldo

Not that it really means anything but I differ with you guys on this topic.

If the cars built in 1984 and 1985 are in the Cadillac brochure, shop manual, and parts books, even though the tops were converted by an outside firm, these cars sat in Cadillac showrooms, and had window stickers and VIN's as Eldorado convertibles. It was cheaper for them to have this work done by ASC than to tool up for it in house.

That to me is much different than the Hess cars and others built.

Cadillac went out of their way to showcase what they called "The worlds longest assembly line" in describing the complicated process of sending chassis to Pinninfarina and getting them back with bodies on then finishing the cars and they indeed considered them Factory cars.

Not all of the work was done in Detroit. Obviously.

Allante's were built from 87-93.

Brian

Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

Dan LeBlanc

If we find ONE and only ONE Cadillac employee who says the post 1976 Cadillac convertibles were built totally in house by CADILLAC, I'll take back everything I said, otherwise, I stand behind Art, Eric, and others here and state that these were factory authorized and not factory built.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

76eldo

#23
The point is (to me) what does it matter under who's roof the car was built and or modified?

For all the reasons I stated, documentation, window sticker, parts stock, brochure placement, etc, the 84-85 ASC cars IN MY OPINION, are "Factory" cars as opposed to Hess & Eisenhardt and other builders in California and Florida.

Why did a group of 76 Cadillac convertible owners sue Cadillac thinking that the 84-85 convertibles might diminish the value of their cars?

It's just a matter of interpretation, I agree to disagree.

By the way, have any of you guys ever taken apart any of these cars for repairs or restoration?  I have worked on dozens of these cars over the years, owned a bunch and still own a few.  There are huge differences between the ASC cars and the others. 

Oh, original poster, buy the 69... 8)

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

waterzap

These are two very different cars. If you take the HT4100 out of the equation. The 84 has a lot more electronics that can and will go wrong in the future than the 69, which has none. The 84 has a lot more plastic that can break, and be impossible to find than the 69. I might be in the minority (don’t yell), but I think the 60’s were the top in GM design and engineering. I think the 70s are probably the latest you want to go in classic cars if you want to keep things for a long time. Most of the tech was still similar to the 60’s, however they had more emissions and are generally much slower. The dashes and stuff break easier than the 60’s, but generally there aren’t many differences. Once you get to the 80’s, is really where I think the modern car starts. Fuel injection, computers, serpentine belts. The 80s and later cars generally work much better than before. However for long term, I don’t see an 84 car lasting 50 years, however there are many 60’s cars out there that will undoubtedly last another 50 years. The 69 was complicated for the 60’s, but does not hold a candle to anything from the 80s. It really depends what you want from the car. I personally looked at those Eldorados at one point. Interior is great, drives great. Far less rattles than the older cars. Overall it’s a much better car, no denying that. But for a hobby car, a 69 might be the better choice.
Leesburg, AL

TJ Hopland

It will be interesting to see how everything ages.    I do wonder what sort of decay curve some of the various plastics will have. 

George, unless your 84 is a diesel its got an engine management computer.   It ran the electronic ignition timing, mixture control solenoid in the carb, locking torque converter, and various emissions dodads.

Where electronics repair gets difficult is the semiconductors or IC's or 'chips'.    A 'chip' is basically and compact assembly of anywhere from 2 to 1000's of components.   Older electronics were made up of what were called discrete components which meant each thing you saw on the circuit board pretty much only did one thing.  Chips got popular in the 80's and as time progress more and more stuff ends up on a chip.  Problem is they are not repairable and they are difficult to make so of you are going to 'tool up' to make one you need to be able to sell a lot of them or sell them for a lot of money.  Often times once the 'first run' is done on a chip they never go back and make the same one again.  If its a popular enough device they will maybe make a version 2 of the chip that is plug in compatible or that maybe fits their current model but even that is getting rare to see these days.    Other issues in more modern stuff is circuit boards will have multiple layers which again makes repairs difficult or impossible and the possibility of making a new board also difficult.   To even inspect many modern circuit boards you need what amounts to a microscope.    Think of Back To the Future 2 where the 'time circuit' chip gets damaged and the 1955 Doc Brown builds an equivalent in 1955 technology that takes up the entire hood of the car.    That may be the only way the 3 of us on this board that don't passionately hate 4100's on this board will keep em going in the future....   I suppose we could just get the 'hover conversion' done.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Big Apple Caddy

Quote from: TJ Hopland on July 22, 2014, 12:11:01 PM
Think of Back To the Future 2 where the 'time circuit' chip gets damaged and the 1955 Doc Brown builds an equivalent in 1955 technology that takes up the entire hood of the car.

Isn't that an opposite issue i.e. building 1980s technology with 1955 knowledge and capabilities?    This would be building 1980s technology with 2014+ knowledge and capabilities.  It may be easier, more efficient, etc. to replicate down the road.

76eldo

George,

The problem is the repair techs cannot always get the components on the board that fail.  I was told that the 80's radios with the LED displays that always seem to have segments missing are hard to get parts for.  A lot of the 70's transistor radios are getting hard to find parts for.

If you have any pick-a-part junk yards near you it might be prudent to have a spare computer laying around.  Having a spare on a shelf almost guarantees that the part wont fail if you subscribe to Murphy's Law.

For the most part the computers are pretty reliable, so hopefully it's not something you will need to address.
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

waterzap

I just know when I had my 76 Seville. The only guy that can touch those ECM's is Bruce. But even he could not get all new parts for what was in there. And some of those components I myself tried getting through big distributors. No luck. I think the solid state Pioneer had more standardized parts. Things were more similar.
Your car will last 20 years or more, but one of those chips might not. And they just arent available. And its not even the ECU. The Seville had a few sensors, that fortunately were reproduced, but that are quite expensive. Two little sensors that if they go, the car doesnt start. The 84 has more of those sensors, the new Cadillacs have over 30 computers in the car. You just need one or two IC's to go bad and the car isnt going anywhere. Plus now you have software to deal with now too. And the OEM's arent sharing the software.
Leesburg, AL

waterzap

#29
I am not an electronic expert by any means, but the old stereos have mainly transistors, resistors, capacitors and a few other parts. Before transistors they had solid state tubes. Many if not most of those parts are standardized. The numbers on the transistors might not match what you have, but you look at the signal that goes in, and how you want to handle the signal that goes out. Then you look up components that can do that and voila. You have a replacement. Now the next step would be IC’s (integrated circuits), or chips that are built from many millions of transistors. And that is where the beauty starts. These things not only have hardware, but they might even need software to run properly. And they can do all kinds of weird and wonderful stuff with the signals. Add to that that many of these components are encapsulated in other components that were never meant to be opened. You have components, sensors and things that were never meant to be fixed. And to top that off. These circuits are created by machines now. With your old stereo you can open it up, unsolder and resolder new components in there. It was created by humans, so we can fix it today too.
Humans cannot physically solder in the components in in a new cellphone. You can barely see them. Even if I knew for a fact that the IC is broken and I have the same exact one next to me. It is not possible to get the old one out and put the new one in unless you have some kind of machine that can do it. I have replaced some of the parts in my cellphone. However if parts on the motherboard break, you have to buy the new motherboard with all the circuits and components already on it.
The old stereos are like the bottom of a tree trunk in complexity. Modern electronics are like the branches and leaves on top.

Intel's 15-core Xeon CPU now has 4.3 billion transistors. An old stereo might have 100 tranistors max, maybe not even that. 

With older electronics you were dealing with discrete components. One capacitor, one transistor. With modern stuff you are dealing with a group of components. The motherboard plus ICU's plus whatever is on there is a unit. Its made in a big factory in China by robots. If one little component breaks, the whole unit gets replaced. These things dont fail often, but they do fail. Even worse, if they do fail, no one really knows what on the board failed. Maybe someone very skilled can figure out after many hours. But usually they just replace the whole thing
Leesburg, AL

waterzap

#30
Find out how many computer systems the car has. Maybe just one for the engine, one for the climate control. Get one or more of each. Also figure out which sensors are a make or break on this car. The coolant temp sensor that just displays the temp isnt that critical. The coolant temp sensor that sends that information to the ECU is very critical. Get some spares of that too. Things like fuel injectors for that specific car might be difficult to find in the future. I have an extra 87 ECU somewhere for anyone that is interested. Funny thing. I think the 87 ECU was specific to that year. Might be the same for the 84
Leesburg, AL

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

United Radio of Syracuse NY will repair just about any car radio ever made, digital dash clusters and other automotive electronics as well.

I have used them on any number of occasions; their service is first rate. Non working/partial working radios are the least of my worries.

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

sding


sding

Art you have no hart :) I can't tell her. LOL

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Nobody says it like King Arthur!

Long live the King!  ;D ;D ;D

A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

TJ Hopland

Quote from: Big Apple Caddy on July 22, 2014, 12:51:52 PM
Isn't that an opposite issue i.e. building 1980s technology with 1955 knowledge and capabilities?    This would be building 1980s technology with 2014+ knowledge and capabilities.  It may be easier, more efficient, etc. to replicate down the road.

I suppose that is possible.   What I was thinking is that without being able to make a 'chip' you would have to use discrete components which could work but would take up a lot more space among other issues.  Maybe in the future there will be a '3d printer' sort of thing for chips and 'anyone' could sit at their computer and 'print out' a new chip for their V8-6-4 ecu.    Problem right now is that its just not practical to make chips on a small(ish) scale so DIY the only option if you can't get a replacement chip would be discrete components which is also not practical in many cases.

Someone else asked the question as long as there are schematics can't anything be fixed?   In theory that is correct but there are the issues I mention above and then the fact that the details of many chips are never 'published' even after its no longer a current product.  A working chip is very difficult to reverse engineer, a broken one could be impossible.     

For those not familiar to electronics let me try to think of a good way to explain the difference between a discrete and chips.   I'm sure there is something out on the net that will make sense so I won't have to rewrite it.     
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason