Nice '70 Fleetwood going for some strong money on eBay.

[wrefakis]

I think its time to complete my 59 Biarritz project and retire from hobby.
I am overly negative
there are collectors that will appreciate a car like this Fleetwood
if you have nothing good to say ??, so enjoy my friends !

[76eldo]

You can see tell tale wrinkles in the vinyl top where it was probably lifted to fix rust.  I have done this before and know what the wrinkles look like.

It's not a bad car, for like $10,000.

Brian

[J. Skelly]

I have visited this dealer before.  They primarily sell restored and modified muscle cars.  The car was probably purchased as is and the seller is unaware of some details pointed out on this forum.     

[chrisntam]

What about the rare "double walled" Y pipe?

Never heard of such a thing....

Am I off base on this?

[chrisntam]

I think its time to complete my 59 Biarritz project and retire from hobby.
I am overly negative
there are collectors that will appreciate a car like this Fleetwood
if you have nothing good to say ??, so enjoy my friends !

I wouldn't say negative...I'd say you call it as you see it.  No bs, just straight up as it should be.

[V63]

SHILL BIDDING: My policy is to list cars NO RESERVE with the minimum bid as the very LEAST that would be accepted. No shenanigans. Best part for the seller is he's not answering numerous requests from people only interested in paying about 1/2 of desired amount anyway.

This fleetwood is a very nice example with respectable workmanship. I agree the vinyl top likely had corrosion issues under the top necessitating a repaint. It would be a worth while investment to acquire the correct trim for the seller. The rear bumper plate might be acceptable just painting the existing ones body color if originals could not be found. The option list is short on this one...only a 2 way front seat.

PRODUCTION: its rapidly becoming a reality that original production numbers hold little revalence...because recycling into scrap metal of automobiles is becoming the norm.

JUST an example: when's the last time you saw a chevette? I doubt anybody is stashing those away...begs the question how many are REALLY left? They made a zillion of em! 
The problem for us is that Cadillacs are particularly attractive for 'quick cash' due to their weight over the scales.  Scrapers also STEAL them to convert into cash...I had 13 Cadillacs stolen in one day! this event during the height of scrap metal prices...thieves got about $800 'no questions asked' CASH  per car. These were complete Cadillacs and they had ZERO ownership documents for the conversion.  You can say 'they can't do that!'...but i know now...they can and they will! 

[jdemerson]

The wide range of views about this car is fascinating. Is the glass half full or is it half empty? With a very attractive and desirable model like this one, and with 17,000 miles on a 1970 Brougham, I WANT to believe the glass is half full until there's evidence that there's more wrong with the car than meets the eye. Maybe we can get to see it if it's still there when we visit Michigan (CLC Museum) later this month.

Here is what seems not to be questionable:

* 1970 Fleetwood Brougham with 17,000 miles
* Repaint in dark blue metallic appears to be an excellent job (though we need to see it is person)
* Has some options: automatic climate control, cruise control, tilt/telescoping wheel, controlled differential, white walls, and very likely some others
* Has Brougham standard equipment -- check out the 1970 Data Book, pages A6 - A8  and others for details [can download from web]
* Several emblems removed from exterior [Aside: A few weeks ago I saw a new Mercedes Benz SL AMG V12 being delivered to the buyer. Over $160,000 sticker as I recall. Buyer had removed every last emblem on the exterior of the car -- his preference. Car was black on black and truly stunning! To each his own...]
* The standard air suspension was converted to regular suspension, as has often been down by CLC members who own cars of the era. [Aside: For me this would be a plus...]
* Seller is an enthusiast in the car business for 25 years, and owns current business with excellent facilities for 10 years
* Seller has enviable record of great customer feedback (at least for a used car seller!) over many years
* Any buyer can see the car and take a mechanic with him or her
* Seller allows interested customer to use a lift to inspect car

And some of my own opinions:
- It's not a convertible but it IS a VERY nice Fleetwood Brougham with 133 inch wheelbase, the 472 and TH400
- This is NOT the car to buy if your goal is scoring high points at a Grand National
- Anyone interested should look the car over carefully, perhaps with an expert on 69-70 Cadillacs. The seller makes this easy to do
- There is absolutely no evidence of fraud of any sort with this car and seller. We should always have our eyes open, and perhaps such evidence will surface. Don't think so....
- I doubt that anyone here could buy a reasonably nice 1970 Brougham with, say, 75,000 miles and "normal" usage with relatively good care, and restore it to the condition of this car -- all for less than $15,300. [Even contributing some of their own labor...]
- This car is worth an investment of, say, $3000 more to address any cosmetic issues and the emblems
- As for selling price, we will see. It won't be $9,000 and it won't be $30,000. If I were in the market now, I would pay $15,300 and be very happy without adding the missing emblems!
- Is there a nicer Brougham out there for sale at under $15,300?

Cheers!

John Emerson
1952 Cadillac 6219X -- Very nice driver but not nearly as nice as this 1970 Brougham

[Scot Minesinger]

Bill,

I'm a positive person, people even say that I'm from the school of "dream on".  Recently after selling two cars on e-bay the bidding is to say the kindest thing: meaningless.  I think the problem people see with this car is that the seller stated things that the buyer is to rely on that are not right, such as #29 blue paint formula..., and double wall Y pipe.  The original "Patina Silver" paint on my 35k miles 1970 SDV is faded too, but it was not known to be due to a paint formulation.

The missing trim items, black painted under carriage, repaint, and fold marks on vinyl top to possibly repair corrosion give pause for such an expensive car.  Like always it needs to be personally inspected mainly to check out the quality of that re-paint.  Plus would like to see some documentation on the mileage, such as old receipts or something, although the front driver seat is almost enough proof. 

Right now, not in the market for another car, so will not be inspecting it.  If I was this might be a possibility after an inspection.

Enjoy the restoration of the 59!

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Spoke with the seller mainly to inquire of the remote possibility the previous owner having furnished the missing trim bits in a couple ZipLock bags. Unfortunately, the answer is no. A repro set of Fleetwood letters from Caddy Daddy is $318 for a pair. Figure another $160 for the third set for the bumper. Crest and Wreath for the hood shouldn't be too difficult to find for ~ $200 to $250. Also needed are a pair of front fender emblems (Cadillac crest w/ bishop's hat) are available for another $300 for a pair.  (These figures are without shopping around.)

So figure around a grand for all the missing parts; maybe another hundred for barrel clips plus labor to install which shouldn't be a big problem for any reasonably competent  body shop or by the owner himself.

In any case, the seller seems pretty firm in the upper 20s.  Not the seller's first time at the races, I'm sure he'll know what to do.  Years and years ago people used to think I was crazy for pricing mint, low mile 77-79 CdVs puffs in the $6K range. Guess who was right and many times over at that. 

[V63]

This fleetwood  does NOT have cruise control that i can see?  It's a switch inserted into the upper left speedo area. a crest filler is in its place on non cruise models.  It's also the first year that the prior 'dial' style cruise was not offered.

[chrisntam]

Yep, no cruise.

I did find this '69 Fleetwood on eBay, says its a 60 special, looks like a brougham to me.  And it's priced right, except it's a '69.   

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cadillac-Fleetwood-60-Special-Sedan-4-Door-/201664667847?forcerrptr=true&hash=item2ef426a0c7:g:XokAAOSwRQlXcsv7&item=201664667847

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

The 1970 Fleetwood listing now shows - " This listing was ended by the seller because the item is no longer available"   

[Scot Minesinger]

Chris,

That 69 Fleetwood falls into the needs some work category, but worth it.  The nice thing about a car that needs some work is you can make it how you want.  For me I would remove vinyl top and body side moldings and re-paint it - wow!, that would be amazing.  I like the leather interior.  If it was not rusted it may be worth considering.  However if the subject of this post has a real nice paint job you could not get this car as nice as the one for sale for the price difference.

[936CD69]

Chris, the 69 is definitely a Brougham, note the leading P model code in the VIN. A Sixty Special would be M. Blasphemy I know, I always preferred the 69s, and the slick top Sixty Specials.

Craig

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Doesn't vinyl roof mean it could not be a base 60 Special?

Technically, the 60 Special designation was used until 1976.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

The '69 is a dog's breakfast.

And what about this ridiculous proviso the seller attached to his terms of sale:

If you are buying and paying for this vehicle you will need to give me a positive feedback before this vehicle is picked up!

[936CD69]

Yes Eric, the Sixty Special was only available with no vinyl top, the Brougham only available with vinyl top. Brougham had a 1st year split bench seat, optional on Sixty Special. 69 was the last year of the base Sixty Special.
Craig

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Frankly, I prefer pre-71 Cadillacs without vinyl roof, while also eliminating bubbling vinyl roof worries.

I've never been overly fond of 69/70 but I've always considered the Fleetwood 60 Special/Brougham a very stately car - especially in black w/slick roof.

[gary griffin]

Eric, Great comment about "Dogs Breakfast"  I was considering it for a few minutes but the Washington title shown was for $2400 in February from Washington state. Since I live in Washington  and have done quite a few transaction the date would cost me hundreds of dollars for late registration fees.

[dochawk]

I'm trying to figure out why a car with only 17k has so much missing or replaced . . .

hawk