Author Topic: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC  (Read 2902 times)

Offline TJ Hopland

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2017, 08:29:07 AM »
If you are considering pulling the engine yourself look on Craigs List for a hoist and stand.   Those are the type of tools people buy, use once, then sell off.    Unless you are the guy that bought them new you can usually sell them on to the next guy for what you paid.    You do need to watch the quality, get the heaviest duty stuff you can find.   These engines are heavier than the average engine.   On the hoist an unusual issue with these cars is the engine is pretty far back from the front bumper so you have to extend the boom which greatly reduces the lifting capacity and your safety margin.   

I wonder if his builder didn't check the oil pump?  I don't know if they finally corrected the issue now but for many years Melling was the only supplier and they had a known defect that caused a valve to stick and bleed off all the oil pressure.  The bore just needed to be finished a little deeper which was fairly easy to do but you had to know to check it.    Easy way around this issue is to buy it from a vendor like MTS that checks every one to make sure its right. 

Here is a bearing out of my motor that had about 1000 miles on it when the oil pump sized on the highway.   It ran for less than a minute without oil.   This was the worst bearing which wasn't too horrible but even with that minor wear I was concerned about the crank.  I brought the crank back to the machine shop for a check and I think all it needed was a polish so it may have been alright but I wanted to be sure.   

StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2017, 09:35:32 AM »
I guess we'll see what happened when the engine comes out. I'll dig out the old receipts to try and get a mileage figure from when it was overhauled in 2005, so I can see how many miles I drove it since then.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline chrisntam

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2017, 12:22:46 PM »
Suggest you pull the motor, put it on a pallet and send it to MTS, let them rebuild it.  They'll boil the block out, check everything, assemble it and pallet it back.  They are the 425, 472, 500 experts.

Marty was the main tech guy there and co-owner with brother Paul.  Marty died about 2 years ago.   Pauls running the business now.  When I did mine (2 yrs ago) I drove out there to meet him.  He had a local machine shop do all that work, then he assembled everything from there.  From time to time, he'd hire some add'l help, not sure if they assist w/ assembly or not.  I imagine (but not sure) the machine shop does the machining and the assembly now.

Sounds like you'll be calling them, let us know how it goes.

The other cadillac engine specialist is Cadco in New Mexico.
1970 Deville Convertible  MTS 507
Dallas, Texas

Offline cadman56

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2017, 03:57:10 PM »
Well said by all of you.  I have overhauled too many engines in my life to mess with spot fixes.  If it were mine I would have the engine out, crank bore line honed and block deck checked to be sure it is square and straight to the crank bore.  I would have the rods checked for straightness and bore size of the big end.  I would also do a thorough rebuild on the heads.  All of this because you say it has been overheated several times. 
Please go the extra mile to pull the engine.  I know, it is a pain, done it too many times. You will be much happier you did.  The guys have given you great advice. 
And when hoisting the engine, the lift arm will be fully extended to reach the engine so be careful when the engine is up high.  I ususally roll the car backwards because most engine lifts do not roll too easily with the arm fully extended with the engine load on it.   And finally, good luck.  Larry
« Last Edit: May 07, 2017, 04:02:33 PM by cadman56 »
1956 Cadillac Coupe deVille (sold)
1956 Cadillac Convertible (sold)
1956 Cadillac Eldorado Seville
1967 Cadillac Eldorado (sold)
1968 Cadillac Convertible
1991 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham dElegance
Larry Blanchard CLC #5820

Online The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2017, 05:52:55 PM »
You do need to watch the quality, get the heaviest duty stuff you can find.   These engines are heavier than the average engine.   On the hoist an unusual issue with these cars is the engine is pretty far back from the front bumper so you have to extend the boom which greatly reduces the lifting capacity and your safety margin.
This is just the reason I made my own.   I built mine with Cadillacs in mind, plus used screw jacks as the hoisting medium as hydraulics are too "bouncy" when lowering, and either too much or too less when trying to position what is being moved.

Plus, I made mine so that it would actually fit under the car and the jib long enough to reach back further than needed as I attached a small hand winch to assist in raising and lowering the transmission when this is attached for other applications.   As can be seen, I have a height problem in my garage, as it is under the house, whereas my previous garage was sufficiently high enough to have a beam and traveller with endless chain.   Handy having stuff lying around that can be pressed into service.

The Cadillac engine (472-500-524) is actually lighter than a BBC.   I have also used this hoist for removing a '60 Cadillac engine and transmission, so it does hold weight.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline Scot Minesinger

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2017, 08:39:59 PM »
It took a lot of talent to produce a weld on the post to base of Bruce's crane - it has no cross bracing - the moment is tremendous - very nice job.  I would not attempt it unless had a lot of practice, so do not recommend that you make your own Mike unless you are accomplished at this type of work.  I bought a standard one out of Harbor Freight or something like that and it was decent enough to manage the job.  It really comes in handy for replacing engine mounts, raising engine to remove pan to change rear main seal and etc.  Also loaded a 1,200lb safe into my pick up truck with it too, threw the crane in the truck and unloaded it with that too after arrival at my destination.
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Online bcroe

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Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2017, 09:08:13 PM »
Of course the trans needs a support while the engine is unhooked.  I use a
couple 6' pieces of angle bolted together with a 3/8" slot between.  A couple
threaded hooks go through the slot into the frame on each side, tighten the
nuts with a block of wood between it and the trans pan. 

That is sufficient for some engines, but with no rear supports on the Cad
engine, a second support is used there.  Bruce Roe

Online The Tassie Devil(le)

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2017, 10:09:17 PM »
I wish I was that good a welder, but alas, I am not.

I did brace it when I had to do the Cadillac work.   7/16" thick, 4" wide, and wraps under the cross beam.   A bit of an overkill, but I do value my life.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   Oh, and the front rollers are converted floor jack front wheels, paired and sit within the square tubing.   Not much weight on the rear castors, which are also from the rear of a floor jack.

PPS.   The front rollers are not square in the legs, but angled to allow the unit to run true when moved around the garage.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 05:47:43 AM by The Tassie Devil(le) »
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #28 on: May 08, 2017, 11:48:59 AM »
I'm going to have it pulled. I can't do it myself. No help available, hood has to come off, no garage space and no tools /  equipment to hoist it up.  I will call MTS and try to get some advice. I'm still not sure I want to send it to them though. That's 3,000 miles shipping of a very heavy engine.

It it was not caused by long term running too hot, then it might have been low oil pressure, or a combination. The light never came on while it was running and it functions correctly, so I'm not sure if pressure was marginal or not. I think a new oil pump setup is in order as well as well as a gauge set to monitor it.

It was only overhauled once, taken out, completely torn down and rebuilt. That was in 205, maybe 20-30,000 miles ago, if that. I'm not sure if oil pump was replaced though. If it was put back together wrong, or bearings improperly fitted, I don't see how it would have lasted this long. The rattle sound first occurred about 6 months ago, but it was not loud, not easily discerned unless top was down and no other traffic. But I haven't used it much since then either. We'll find out what happened.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Online bcroe

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Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #29 on: May 08, 2017, 12:54:10 PM »
Wondering here, if it still had oil pressure when you shut it down for the
noise?  If so it could be a cracked piston.  Bruce Roe

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #30 on: May 08, 2017, 12:58:58 PM »
I had to drive it a few miles. And then had to move it a bit to get on the tow truck and then to get it back in my garage. No oil light - EVER, but pressure might have been marginal all this time..... Talking with some engine shops today and tomorrow.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Jeff Rose CLC #28373

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #31 on: May 08, 2017, 02:04:35 PM »
Please describe the rattling sound you heard. Was it a rattle like a piece of loose metal or was it more of a clunk?
Do you think it came from the top of the engine or down low? Did it start to run badly like it lost a cylinder??
Have a hunch and just thinking outloud.
Jeff
« Last Edit: May 08, 2017, 02:24:17 PM by Jeff Rose CLC #28373 »
Jeff
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1970 Coupe DeVille
1955 Series 62

Online bcroe

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Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #32 on: May 08, 2017, 02:34:38 PM »
Guess pulling the plugs and doing a compression test could help.  Bruce Roe

Offline Carl Fielding

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #33 on: May 08, 2017, 02:40:28 PM »
Yes indeed , "Cadillac". "LOUD metal on metal rapping sound" is a relative term , and subjective by its nature. Before you go yanking this mill , get someone very experienced to properly diagnose the problem. Progressively louder metal on metal rapping sounds can be something simple. In almost 60 years of Cadillac driving , I have had a slightly loose exhaust manifold make a rapping sound. Also a loose crankshaft damper. I certainly hope you wil have an easy outcome , my brother. For some strange reason , I have a particular respect for guys with my same first name.   - Cadlillac Carl

P.S. : (Speaking of respect) Also take the advice of Bruce and others here. Show respect for your machinery and finances by using full synthetic (Mobil 1 or better) , oil , if not already enjoying this economical protection. Follow owners manual for hot weather viscosity.  - CC

Offline chrisntam

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #34 on: May 08, 2017, 06:04:31 PM »

I'm going to have it pulled. I can't do it myself. No help available, hood has to come off, no garage space and no tools /  equipment to hoist it up. 

snip.


Is it time to call in favors from some of the local club members to assist?  Maybe you've already asked around for help?
1970 Deville Convertible  MTS 507
Dallas, Texas

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #35 on: May 09, 2017, 09:54:04 PM »
It doesn't feel like it lost a cylinder. I pulled the valve covers - those things were like welded on to the heads. Everything looks OK there. A couple rocker arms would twist ever so slightly when their valve was closed, but when I bumped the engine, those were nice and tight. No thick sludge anywhere either. Pretty clean actually.

I connected up that PITA throttle curve grommet / anchor, that took forever, but that is not the source of the rattle.  It was on the trans cover and could have been making a rattle, but nope.

No loose bolts that I could see or feel.

The rattle is loud and sharp, but intermittent at idle. As soon as you give it some gas to move, it becomes more constant. The shop that does my AC and did the engine 12 years ago said if it wasn't a loose pushrod / rocker arm then it was most likely a bearing, and most likely a rod bearing.

So I'm looking at probably 2 new connecting rods, a full bearing set and probably a new crank as well. Plus a new oil pump. I don't think anything up top is wrong - unless detonation caused a blown piston,  but I should be able to feel that as in a rough running engine. The heads will come off to check this as well. 

Has anyone shipped a 472 / 500  engine over 2,000 miles? What does it cost? That will be a large determining factor as to whether it gets shipped off to MTS or not.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Jeff Rose CLC #28373

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  • Name: Jeff Rose
Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #36 on: May 09, 2017, 10:04:28 PM »
Ok.
I broke a rocker arm retaining clip and it caused a rattle but it also lost the cylinder when the rocker came off. A few people told me it was a bad bearing too until I found that.
I was hoping it was the same for you
 Shoot.
Jeff
Jeff
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille
1955 Series 62

Offline TJ Hopland

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #37 on: May 09, 2017, 10:45:33 PM »
I have not done it myself with MTS but have read they have made pretty good deals with freight companies so the freight isn't bad. 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
75 Eldo rusty but trusty
80 Eldo Diesel
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Offline cadillacmike68

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  • Name: M Santos
Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #38 on: May 09, 2017, 11:28:13 PM »
Ok.
I broke a rocker arm retaining clip and it caused a rattle but it also lost the cylinder when the rocker came off. A few people told me it was a bad bearing too until I found that.
I was hoping it was the same for you
 Shoot.
Jeff

So was I, So was I...  :(
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline 35-709

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Re: Main and / or rod bearings failure in 1968 DVC
« Reply #39 on: May 10, 2017, 06:34:51 AM »
As I remember, MTS will make the arrangements to pick up your engine and can give you a quote.  By the way, they ship their engines upside down on a pallet with the valve covers each resting on a thick foam rubber pad.  Much easier and much more stable if you do the same rather than building a crate for it, of course make sure the engine is well drained.   :)

I'll look later when I have more time but pretty sure I did not take a picture of mine when it arrived from MTS.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod