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Rebuilding a 472...

Started by cadillac73, November 21, 2017, 09:16:57 AM

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Scot Minesinger

Chiming in here and adding the customary 2 cents, where my goal is a mostly original look, but improved perfromance:

1.  Modified stock intake manifold from MTS, where they machine interior of it, gets more torque
2.  Modified cam - your choice - this heavy car will never be a racer, would go for the mid performance upgrade, not extreme, as normal driving will not be as nice
3.  Modified exhaust manifolds, smoothed out on interior.
4.  Stock heads modified by MTS with larger intake and exhaust valve sizes
5.  10 to 1 pistons, that is on my 1970 and it never knocks
6.  Get the 1970 pulley set up to eliminate the air pump (MTS sells a kit)
7.  Of course, standard stuff, like timing chain, and etc.

I have done the performance intake (item 1) on my 1970 Cadillac RWD 472only (and of course already have items 5, 6 and 7 done).  If I ever tear into the engine again will do items, 2, 3, and 4. 

Also, I doubt the snorkel allows full air flow the carb will manage, so would install it upside down for normal running and right side up for shows only. 
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

Roger Zimmermann

Scot, what MTS does means ? I tried with google, without a good result.
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

TJ Hopland

MTS's site is http://www.500cid.com/

Maximum Torque Specialists.   I started using 'them' when it was AL in Wisconsin in the early 2000's.   I think it goes back to the 90's at least maybe even before Al.  I don't think Al was much more than a shop that really liked these engines.    AL sold to Marty who was a big time enthusiast in the mid 2000's who moved the operation to CA and really grew it.   He took it from enthusiast to a full blown operation with a warehouse and staff and everything.  I believe within the last few years they even bought out or merged with the machine shop that was doing a lot of the work so now its all under one roof.  So they are pretty much one stop shopping.   They distribute new and used parts as well as full rebuild machine shop.  They also work with the 'big' names to get or keep parts for these engines coming as well as design and commission their own parts.   Marty was the key and usually the one you got if you called.  He was the kind of guy that if you just needed to order a nut you could spend a half hour chatting if you wanted to so pretty much everyone felt like they knew him and I would imagine gave him great insight to the customers too.   Marty got hit with what now seems the typical not the worst cancer that should be manageable for a while that suddenly turns and you are gone.  Marty's brother Paul had work with him the whole time and has kept things going.  I have not needed anything the last several years so I have not really been keeping up on what the current status or offerings are but they do seem to still have a good rep on the forums.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

MTS Stands for Maximum Torque Specialties, now known as 500CID. http://www.500cid.com/
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Roger Zimmermann

Thanks Greg for the right name!
1956 Sedan de Ville (sold)
1956 Eldorado Biarritz
1957 Eldorado Brougham (sold)
1972 Coupe de Ville
2011 DTS
CLCMRC benefactor #101

cadillacmike68

Quote from: Scot Minesinger on November 26, 2017, 09:07:53 AM
Chiming in here and adding the customary 2 cents, where my goal is a mostly original look, but improved perfromance:...
Also, I doubt the snorkel allows full air flow the carb will manage, so would install it upside down for normal running and right side up for shows only.

That's true. Another possibility is drilling some holes along the bottom of the housing to let more air in. But then you are cutting an original part. You could also get a chrome cap that only covers the air cleaner and then put your regular one on for shows. This would keep your original cover from getting all scratched up when it it is installed upside down...
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

cadillac73

Hello all!  Work on the 472 is progressing nicely.  I've attached a few pics.

One question about removing the smog pump...is there a conversion kit of some kind for that? 

Thanks for all of your help with this project. 

C
Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

35-709

Hi Cat, as mentioned above, Cadillac High Performance (used to be MTS) sells a kit to eliminate the smog (A.I.R.) pump.
 
https://cadillachighperformance.com/collections/big-block/products/chp-bl49-smog-pump-removal-kit

Not cheap, I bought one for my '73 a few years ago and it fits and works well.  You can also get some pulleys off a 1970 472 (again as mentioned above) and use those --- no smog pump that year which is what I did on my other 472 engine.

Geoff N.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

Scot Minesinger

First please make sure the shop has experience with these engine family 472/500/425.  Talk to the man who is working the tools, not the owner of the shop who sells you the job.  Their are countless bone head stories about mechanics who mess up these engines on this forum, such as but for sure not limited to switching bolts that hold on oil pick up with cam sprocket (oil pick up are longer and will not tighten correctly).  The late 1970's is when many engines became more similar and in this era they were still unique to each GM division.  I cannot emphasize knowing the person who will actually do the work enough.  Highly recommend you pull the engine and re-install, otherwise count on your climate control messed up among other inconveniences.  Then while the engine is out you can clean up the engine bay.

This will never be a racer and it will never be super valuable as an original, and frankly these Cadillacs are already powerful enough, but if it were me at a minimum I would:

General:  Keep it so it is a smooth running nice car that you could take your wife out to dinner in.

1.  Make the intake a performance type, where the original intake manifold is re-machined.
2.  Go with a mild cam improvement, not one that lopes at idle.
3.  Of course timing chain set must be replaced
4.  Use the MTS modified heads where they re-machine the original heads with larger intake and exhaust ports.
5.  Make the compression ratio higher, yet still bale to run on unleaded premium pump gas.
6.  Remove the air pump (MTS sells the kit)
7.  Remove any heat riser apuratus.
8.  Best to utilize used rockers and stands, not new - the new are made very poorly.

Come to think of it, I would probably pay the money and send it to MTS in CA, it ill be worth it to have it rebuilt by them - that is all they do.

The rear end is a 2.93, try to find a Fleetwood that is 3.15 and that will give a little more snap.  You can use same case and just replace pinion and ring gears, which would make remote shipping a possiblity (those are left handed bolts I think so be careful).

I just wrote what I would do and it is all a matter of opinion.

Most important, have fun and enjoy your Cadillac!
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty

35-709

#29
Catherine, just keep it stock, in good condition that 472 will give you plenty of stomp.  Most any modification only ends up bumping up the overhaul price.  I would, however, do the A.I.R. eliminator kit and the HEI, or maybe better a Pertronix electronic ignition kit.  The HEI will create AC belt rubbing problems because the HEI distributor and cap is much larger around.  The Pertronix will fit inside your original distributor.
Geoff N.
1935 Cadillac Sedan resto-mod "Big Red"
1973 Cadillac Caribou - Sold - but still in the family
1950 Jaguar Mark V Saloon resto-mod - Sold
1942 Cadillac 6269 - Sold
1968 Pontiac Bonneville Convertible - Sold
1950 Packard 2dr. Club Sedan
1935 Glenn Pray - Auburn Boattail Speedster, Gen. 2

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

Catherine,
In general ANYTHING that you do to these motors to add more power results in the loss of something else.  Idle qualit, fuel economy, smooth, low end torque, and sound quality.
I see from your pictures that your machine shop has bored the cylinders .030, and you are using replacement "soap dish" low compression pistons.  That said AND if you want the qualities I described above, I would suggest your machine shop carefully examine your old cam shaft.  If it is still within standard specs I would use it wit a new set of lifters. 73's are "special".  If you need a camshaft replacement I would suggest and MTS #5 cam. Perfect idle and just a bit more low end power and torque.
If you are removing the AIR system be sure and have your carburetor re-jetted and set up appropriately.  I used a set of 1970 pulleys (crankshaft and water pump. when I dumped the pump on my 73 and if you have any trouble finding a set PM me.  I went crazy and bought a couple at the time.
Cadillac motors were intended to be slow speed torque monsters, and have a designed in weakness to limit the engine speed to something around 4600 RPM.  To get to a higher engine speed takes a couple of grand worth of parts. Keep your rear end gears, cruise all day at 75 MPH at something like 2300 RPM.
What I have learned with these motors is you can't go half way, and going all the way really changes things.
Dress up is always an option.
Keep us up on your progress.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

TJ Hopland

I like the look of nice clean engine parts.  Sometimes I think I would have been happier just putting them on a shelf and just looking at them.

What happened to the front of the crank?   In the mostly assembled picture I was thinking it had to be some sort of installation sleeve but then looking at the picture of it sitting on the bench it looks all chewed up there too.   The hub is just a press fit on these, I would hate to think of how well its going to fit with that kind of damage.

Other tips from someone that has done one of these engines:

-don't buy one of those cheap or sometimes expensive general hardware kits with normal bolts and washers.   They don't stay tight and will be a constant hassle.   Clean up the originals or find new ones like the originals that have the built in washers. 

-check the oil pump every which way possible.  historically they have issues at the end of the pressure bypass valve bore and I had one where the idler gear sized onto its shaft.  It made noise from the start but we could not figure out where it came from.   A few hundred miles later we found out.

-looks like the timing cover is already on but even so I would consider taking it off to weld nuts to the inside for those bottom 2 bolts in the water pump.  Way to common on these to have those strip and end up with leaks.
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

cadillac73

Thanks everybody, I will bring all of these concerns to the mechanic today.

I'm not changing to HEI; I'm familiar w/ points/condenser and don't want to invite the potential problems.  I also think I'll just leave the smog pump on, and not worry about the few hp I might be sacrificing, because I don't feel like messing w/ the carb.

This car has been down over a year and I just want her back. 

Thank you again, for all of your valuable input.

C
Catherine Smith "Cat"
Pittston, ME  USA

1973 Coupe deVille 472
"Solid Gold"

Jeff Rosansky CLC #28373

I second what Scot said about interviewing the actual mechanic. Just search posts under my name and you will see several headaches related to a VERY experienced and we'll recommended shop redoing my engine but not knowing what they were doing.
Also, don't lose control of the build. Have them contact you for everything he is spending. I had a bad piston and needed another. The shop decided it would be better to bore it over and buy a new set so they just did it (It was not badly worn and may not have needed it. They also put in new rockers and pedistals and a new oil pump all of which I didn't ask for and had to replace. Once the engine is buttoned up it is hard to have them pull those parts out.
Jeff
Jeff Rosansky
CLC #28373
1970 Coupe DeVille (Big Red)
1955 Series 62 (Baby Blue)
Dad's new 1979 Coupe DeVille

mummyjohn

Hoping you can provide a couple clarifications to this HIGHLY useful thread.

Greg - you mention needing to do some carb work if the smog/A.I.R. pump is removed - what exactly?  I've seen probably a hundred mentions of ditching the pump, but never once has anyone mentioned carburettor changes.

TJ - Re: welding the nuts on the backside of the engine front cover for the water pump bolts to thread into.  This is a great tip...however I just discovered that one of my bolts can spin around in its hole because of a newly-discovered leak.  Is there any alternative fix for such a leak, or am I gonna have to bite the bullet and re-remove the front cover and use your bolt fix?

Once again, this thread is a treasure trove of 472/500 info & tips.  Since it is recent, I figured it better to add on than develop yet another separate posting.
- E. Ringman

1971 Eldorado coupe

TJ Hopland

I have been told that the metric equivalent to the 1/4-20 is slightly larger enough that you can carefully thread one in the damaged hole.  I don't do enough metric to know that size off the top of my head.

I'm not sure what mods would be required from removing the smog pump since that is all happening after the exhaust valves.  EGR can make a difference so perhaps that gets lumped in with 'all the smog emissions crap'? 
StPaul/Mpls, MN USA

73 Eldo convert w/FiTech EFI
80 Eldo Diesel
90 CDV
And other assorted stuff I keep buying for some reason

Scot Minesinger

This post was started over a year ago, are you enjoying the Cadillac regularly now?  How does it run?
Fairfax Station, VA  22039 (Washington DC Sub)
1970 Cadillac DeVille Convertible
1970 Cadillac Sedan DeVille
1970 four door Convertible w/Cadillac Warranty