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Author Topic: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville  (Read 323 times)

Offline Glen Camenzuli

  • Posts: 22
  • Name: Glen Camenzuli
Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« on: November 28, 2017, 10:35:19 PM »
Hello everyone,

I live in Sydney, Australia and own a 1958 Cadillac Eldorado Seville, body no.13. It's a Gleneagles Green car with a white Vicodec top (photo attached). The car was imported into Australia in 2007 and I am the third owner since its arrival on our shores. Prior to leaving the USA, the car was owned by Jay Brown of Bel-Air, MD. Before him, the car was owned by a Frank Barthel of Asheville SC who I believe died in September 2013. I am trying to establish the provenance of the car right back to its first owner but I've hit a dead end. Can anyone suggest how I might go about searching the ownership history? As I'm an Aussie, I'm not sure how one might go about doing a search like this in the USA.

The factory build sheet shows that the car was delivered to Omaha, Nebraska after leaving the factory. I have no idea where it went after that.

Cheers,

Glen Camenzuli
1958 Cadillac Eldorado Seville #13

Offline Roger Zimmermann

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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2017, 01:41:50 AM »
Unless the family from Frank Barthel can tell more abaut your car, your quest is "mission impossible"!
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Offline James Landi

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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2017, 06:14:13 AM »
https://newspaperarchive.com/tags/1958-omaha/?psi=62&pci=7/   Here's a listing of several major, locally published daily Omaha papers that were in circulation in 1958... can't be too many families of tremendous affluence who had the finances to purchase such a glorious automobile.  Warren Buffet resides there--- has all of his life... perhaps he knows of a family that would regularly purchase such an exquisite motor car.   Maybe, someone remembers your car and its association with a neighborhood and a specific family?  It's worth a try to connect with Buffet-- he's quite down-to-earth, and he may find your inquiry worthy of some time wandering down memory lane.     Happy day, James 

Offline Jay Friedman

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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2017, 07:22:35 AM »
You wrote that "the car was owned by a Frank Barthel of Asheville SC".  I think you may have typed in the wrong abbreviation "SC" for the state (South Carolina).  I don't think there is an Asheville in South Carolina--at least I couldn't find one on the internet--but there is the city of Asheville in North Carolina (NC). 

In any case, I would suggest you try contacting the North Carolina Department Of Transportation: Division of Motor Vehicles,  (www.ncdot.gov/dmv/) to see if they can supply you with any information on who owned the car before Frank Barthel.  It's probably a long shot, but you never know.  I did this for my own Cadillac many years ago, got lucky and was able to trace its history back to an early owner. 


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Offline D.Smith

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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2017, 08:38:36 AM »
Everyone wants to know the history on their car back to day one.   But sadly unless the paperwork stays with the car from day one it is impossible.      I've never had luck with doing Title searches and DMV requests.  They are so restrictive about giving out peoples information nowadays.   Most only have Title info back one owner at best.    When dealers go out of business old records are just tossed out.   

Offline fishnjim

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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2017, 09:29:23 AM »
Beauty - enjoy it.   Don't rack your brain looking up the ownership history.   Need the paperwork to stay with car.   Maybe one of the former owners in Aussie land has it?   
Our registration system, is state by state, and a mess, too fragmented to look up, except in current ownership state.     eg: there could be intermediate state to state transfers, from NE to NC that won't show up and no way to track.   Title system didn't even exist in '58 in some states.   Errors are common too.   Title only required after 1964, to control theft, but didn't provide for tracking.
ditto Asheville "N"C.

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2017, 09:34:36 AM »
Probably North Carolina (NC), no town in South Carolina (SC) by the name of Asheville.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline Glen Camenzuli

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  • Name: Glen Camenzuli
Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2017, 05:01:02 PM »
Hi everyone, thanks for your replies!

You're right too, Asheville is in NC, not SC. Frank died at a Hospice in Mount Pleasant SC according to his obituary and I mixed the two up. He also lived in Syracuse NY so maybe I should try that DMV too.

The two Aussie owners who had the car before me were Jeff Randall over in Perth WA and Clive Hughes in Mosquito Hill SA. Neither of them had any paperwork that helped with provenance. Jeff imported the car and that's how I got on to Jay Brown in Bel-Air MD.

So yes the build sheet says the car was delivered to Omaha but that does not mean the car stayed there. It may have been sold by a dealer in Omaha or distributed to another dealer interstate. The owners manual has Warren Cadillac Minneapolis scrawled in it but I don't know if the owners manual is the one that came with the car or one from another car. Warren Cadillac no longer exists so that's a dead end. I did try the DMV in Minnesota but their search on my VIN turned up nothing.

The car was built on 25 October 1957 so it was probably first registered in late 1957. I will try all of the options you guys have suggested including the newspapers and DMV's. I think I have also found a phone number for Frank Barthel's family so I will try that too.

I won't give up!!

Cheers,

Glen
1958 Cadillac Eldorado Seville #13

Offline Chuck Swanson

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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2017, 08:07:33 PM »
Difficult sometimes, but not impossible.  I have done with three of my cars that I acquired with no history.  DMV in NY any most states won't help you sue to privacy laws.

If this is same guy, let me know and I will as at next local Syracuse AACA meeting (We have been around since the 50s):

http://obits.syracuse.com/obituaries/syracuse/obituary.aspx?pid=175751321

As a side note, my late grandfather bought the Nova I now have, brand new from dealer.  Today, I finally found a picture of the old dealership in Queens-Major Chevrolet, along with a picture.  Was looking on and off for a number of years, and after Facebook research, found it!

Chuck
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Offline Glen Camenzuli

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  • Name: Glen Camenzuli
Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 08:59:05 PM »
Hi Chuck!!

Thanks for offering to help. The link to the obituary you posted is not the Frank Barthel I was chasing. Here's the link to the correct obituary:

http://www.legacy.com/obituaries/citizen-times/obituary.aspx?page=lifestory&pid=167015787

If anyone remembers him and the car, I just might find the link to the next owner that I am looking for.

I have just been looking at the NY DMV site and yes, as I am chasing someone else's records, I am not entitled to see them as I do not have a Permissible Use in line with the provisions of the Driver's Privacy Protection Act. The thing is, I don't want the driver's details, I already know it was Frank Barthel. All I really want to know is the state where the car was registered prior to NY. I can then get on to the DMV in that state so they can check their records and keep working backwards. I might send them an e-mail to see if they can help with my specific request.

Thanks again Chuck! I hope someone at the AACA meet remembers something!

Cheers,

Glen
1958 Cadillac Eldorado Seville #13

Offline jdemerson

  • 1952 Cadillac 6219X Vermont -- Emerson
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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 07:57:16 AM »
Glen,
     If you have any luck pursuing old information from Titles, Registrations, or Dealer Sales, please let us know. There are a lot of us that are interested in whether it can be done, and we fear that David Smith's comment above is right.

John Emerson
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Offline TJ Hopland

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Re: Chasing provenance for my 1958 Eldorado Seville
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2017, 08:55:02 AM »
I have tried to chase a few in my state to try and fix a typo in the vin but didn't get anywhere.   From what I remember I think I was told the State of Minnesota went to 'computer' in the early 80's so there no chance of searching anything older.   Since then there have been a lot of updates and crashes so not everything is available if you even found a person willing to try.   Individual agents were hand writing applications and renewals into the late 90's.    I don't remember what the actual state requirements were to hang onto that info but it wasn't very long.   
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