Author Topic: Where's the line between original and modified?  (Read 865 times)

Offline 5390john

  • Posts: 91
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  • Name: JAdams
Where's the line between original and modified?
« on: November 30, 2017, 08:14:11 PM »
Pretty soon I will have a completed restoration of my '55 De Ville. Planning on showing it next year. Curious as to where the line is between original and modified.
My car is a one owner, numbers matching, full frame off restoration, with 2 stage paint, color and interior materials as original. All suspension, electrical, glass, rubber, etc, is new but as original.
The upgrades have been:
1) Underbody painted instead of primer
2) Powergen alternator instead of generator
3) PCV system installed.
4) Seat belts installed.
5) HEAVY duty front and REAR sway bars installed.
6) Wire wheels and Goodyear wide white radials.
7) Pertronix ignition and coil
Pretty much everything else on the car is restored parts that were original to the car when made. including most of the original fasteners (not all, but probably 75%)
If I took this car to a CLC judged show, what category would it be in, original or modified?
Would welcome opinions, this should get a lively discussion going.............
John Adams
 

Offline cadillacmike68

  • Posts: 1316
  • Still finishing up this 1968
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  • Name: M Santos
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2017, 08:29:09 PM »
I wouldn't be "modified", but expect dings on 1, 2, maybe 3, and then 5, 6, & 7.

Seat belts should not cause any kniption fit on the part of the CLC judges
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline chrisntam

  • Posts: 1339
  • Dallas, Texas
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      CLC Member #29206
  • Name: C. Jessen
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2017, 09:21:48 PM »
As Mr. Mike said, original, but with deductions.

You, me & Mike are on the same page.  Get 'em so they're dependable and safe(r) to drive!

 ;)
1970 Deville Convertible  MTS 507
Dallas, Texas

Offline Caddyholic

  • Posts: 210
  • 1961 Series 62 Convertible 1962 Coupe Deville
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #29238
  • Name: Jim Lumma
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2017, 09:56:18 PM »
Are you the original owner?
I got myself a Cadillac but I can't afford the gasoline (AC/DC Down Payment Blues)

1961 Series 62 Convertible Coupe http://bit.ly/1RCYsVZ
1962 Coupe Deville

Offline Chas

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  • Name: Chas Sergewick
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2017, 10:06:12 PM »
Face it......as far as CLS judging, you screwed up during the restoration. To help you out, I'll take the car off your hands, but I'm not gonna pay much because it will not win any shows!.....LOL!!!
1967 Coupe DeVille
1970 Coupe DeVille
1976 Coupe DeVille
1983 Coupe DeVille
1977 Harley Cafe Racer
1991 Harley Fat Boy
1957 Harley Hardtail
1949 Lusse Bumper Car
If you're 25 years old and not a liberal, you have no heart. If you're 45 years old and not a conservative, you have no money!

Offline 5390john

  • Posts: 91
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  • Name: JAdams
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2017, 10:31:54 PM »
Chas, thanks for your offer but the car is not for sale.........
The car was purchased new at the Caddy dealer in Grants Pass Oregon in 1955 by the father of a friend of mine. He purchased it from his father in the mid 60's, I am co-owner with him. He turns 91 in a few weeks and I will inherit it someday. I think that's a stretch for "1 owner" but, for now, it's been in the same family since new.
John Adams

Offline Mike Josephic CLC #3877

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2017, 10:32:36 PM »
Nice looking '55!

Unfortunately, you would be dinged on all of the "upgrades" you made
with the exception of the seat belts.  However, I assume you knew
that when you restored her and having the car judged at Grand National
events was not a priority.

However, bring her anyway and if you aren't into awards enter her in
"Display Only" -- she's too pretty to miss a show!

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Offline 5390john

  • Posts: 91
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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2017, 10:54:03 PM »
Mike
Thx for your comments, "Marilyn" loves being told she's good lookin'!
Would love to come to a Grand National sometime........
John Adams

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

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  • Name: Bruce Reynolds
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2017, 12:27:04 AM »
The only things you would probably get pinged on is the wheels and tyres, as the petronix should be hidden inside the original distributor, and the Judges wouldn't be climbing under the car to check for sway bars.

Maybe PCV system, but that should be classed as a safety upgrade, like Seat Belts.

Bruce. >:D

PS.   As for modified, my own '72 would definitely be classed as modified as I have fitted front and rear retractable Lap/Sash seat belts, Predator Carby with modified original Air Cleaner, HEI Distributor, Dual Stainless Steel Exhaust, Aluminium wheels and Continental Kit.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2017, 12:29:32 AM by The Tassie Devil(le) »
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
'02 VX Series II Holden Commodore SS Sedan
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline 57shark82

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      CLC Member #30850
  • Name: Tim Neumann
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2017, 06:22:42 AM »

Nice car!  I'm not a huge fan of non OEM upgrades but you did an excellent job with your restoration.
Tim

CLC Member #30850

1957 Cadillac Series 62 "The Shark"
1940 Chevrolet Master Deluxe Coupe "Scarlett"

Former classics

1941 Ford 1 ton truck
1954 Buick Special 48D 2 Door "Betty Buick"
1955 Packard Clipper Super
1962 VW Beetle
1962 Dodge 880
1966 Mercury Montclair 4 Door "Mr. Merc"
1968 Chevrolet Chevelle SS 396
1968 Plymouth Barracuda notch-back 318
1977 Lincoln Continental MK V

Offline Mike Josephic CLC #3877

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2017, 02:10:54 PM »
G'Day Bruce:

Just to clear up a misconception -- judges DO look under the vehicle
to inspect the chassis, underbody, shocks, fuel tank, paint and everything
else to assure authenticity.  I judged for many years and I can tell you we
ALWAYS did so.

Car owners cannot ignore this stuff it they want to compete at the National
level.

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Offline cadillacmike68

  • Posts: 1316
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  • Name: M Santos
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2017, 04:28:52 PM »
G'Day Bruce:

Just to clear up a misconception -- judges DO look under the vehicle
to inspect the chassis, underbody, shocks, fuel tank, paint and everything
else to assure authenticity.  I judged for many years and I can tell you we
ALWAYS did so.

Car owners cannot ignore this stuff it they want to compete at the National
level.

Mike

Which is why my 1968 DeVille Conv, which I actually started up today (finally!!!) won't be in any GN anytime soon, display or judged.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Brad Ipsen CLC #737

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      CLC Member #737
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2017, 08:58:31 PM »
Keep in mine that if judged at the GN or other CLC official judged events almost everyone (must be 99%) gets an award.  The level of the award depends on how many points off.  70 points will get you a third place or if you don't think you can make that go in touring class where you only need 60 points for third place.  You only need 90 points to get first place so if bragging to friends who are not into the minutia of CLC judging it will sound very good.   
Brad Ipsen
1940 Cadillac 60S
1938 Cadillac 9039
1940 Cadillac 6267
1940 LaSalle 5227
1949 Cadillac 6237X

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 132
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2017, 09:52:03 PM »
One question.  Did you restore the car for your own personal pleasure, or for the pleasure of judges?

Offline 5390john

  • Posts: 91
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      CLC Member #27391
  • Name: JAdams
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2017, 10:24:36 PM »
I had been interested in doing a project car for quite some time when I came across my car. Did not know anything about or have any interest in Caddy's at the time. I had restored several VW bugs and a TR-3 over the years, so this was definitely not my first rodeo. I knew when I started the project that I would know quite a bit about Caddy's when done, and I was right, just don't know as much as a lot of you guys!
To answer your question, I did the project because I wanted to do a project. Turns out it was a restoration done to my own standards, which happen to run along the lines of restoring as opposed to restomods, customs, or whatever. Then of course you get into "mission creep", or more precisely, "if you do this then you might as well do that". That of course leads to "there's no tellin' where the money went".......(simply irresistable)!
John Adams

Offline cadillacmike68

  • Posts: 1316
  • Still finishing up this 1968
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #15823
  • Name: M Santos
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2017, 01:14:54 AM »
^^^ Dr. Dr. Give me the news!!!
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 132
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2017, 11:13:34 AM »
I had been interested in doing a project car for quite some time when I came across my car. Did not know anything about or have any interest in Caddy's at the time. I had restored several VW bugs and a TR-3 over the years, so this was definitely not my first rodeo. I knew when I started the project that I would know quite a bit about Caddy's when done, and I was right, just don't know as much as a lot of you guys!
To answer your question, I did the project because I wanted to do a project. Turns out it was a restoration done to my own standards, which happen to run along the lines of restoring as opposed to restomods, customs, or whatever. Then of course you get into "mission creep", or more precisely, "if you do this then you might as well do that". That of course leads to "there's no tellin' where the money went".......(simply irresistable)!
John Adams

Good for you.  Glad to hear you did it for your own pleasure, and really wasn't that concerned with "judging".

Offline D.Smith

  • Posts: 476
  • 1961 Sedan deVille
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #17592
  • Name: Dave Smith
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #17 on: December 04, 2017, 07:06:53 AM »
Original:  Exactly as delivered when new.  Nothing changed.   Not restored.

Modified:  Any deviations from how it left the factory.

Restored:   Any change to the original condition.  ie: new paint, new upholstery etc.


Original is a word that gets abused all the time.  There is a big difference in "Restored to original colors and condition" and an "Original car". 

I want to scream whenever I see a car listed on Ebay or wherever and it says "100% original car! New paint, reupholstered, new chrome, new top"


Offline cadillacmike68

  • Posts: 1316
  • Still finishing up this 1968
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #15823
  • Name: M Santos
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #18 on: December 04, 2017, 10:53:07 AM »
Original:  Exactly as delivered when new.  Nothing changed.   Not restored.

Modified:  Any deviations from how it left the factory.

Restored:   Any change to the original condition.  ie: new paint, new upholstery etc.


Original is a word that gets abused all the time.  There is a big difference in "Restored to original colors and condition" and an "Original car". 

I want to scream whenever I see a car listed on Ebay or wherever and it says "100% original car! New paint, reupholstered, new chrome, new top"

So my stainless steel hose clamps, which, unlike the originals, do not leak and do not rust / corrode, make it "modified"... NOT in my opinion.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 132
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #19 on: December 04, 2017, 12:34:01 PM »
So my stainless steel hose clamps, which, unlike the originals, do not leak and do not rust / corrode, make it "modified"... NOT in my opinion.

Ah the old range war, of the modified and the originals has once again begun.  Gentlemen choose your side.

 


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