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Author Topic: Where's the line between original and modified?  (Read 824 times)

Offline D.Smith

  • Posts: 440
  • 1961 Sedan deVille
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      CLC Member #17592
  • Name: Dave Smith
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #20 on: December 04, 2017, 02:23:59 PM »
So my stainless steel hose clamps, which, unlike the originals, do not leak and do not rust / corrode, make it "modified"... NOT in my opinion.

Nobody's talking about service replacement parts.   Now if your hose clamps were laminated in bright pink plastic then I guess you'd get a deduction at judging.

Take a vinyl top for example.   Lets say your car came from the factory with a tuxedo grained top.  The restoration shop put on a padded Elk grain top because they just used what was easily available.     Is that modified?   I'd say no.   But It is incorrectly restored and now no longer "Original".       

   



« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 02:25:30 PM by D.Smith »

Offline cadillacmike68

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  • Name: M Santos
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2017, 05:36:03 PM »
Nobody's talking about service replacement parts.   Now if your hose clamps were laminated in bright pink plastic then I guess you'd get a deduction at judging.

Take a vinyl top for example.   Lets say your car came from the factory with a tuxedo grained top.  The restoration shop put on a padded Elk grain top because they just used what was easily available.     Is that modified?   I'd say no.   But It is incorrectly restored and now no longer "Original".     


The top isn't original as soon as it is replaced, exact same pattern and color or not.

And yes the hose clamps are a cause for some judges to go apesh!t when they see them.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline chrisntam

  • Posts: 1282
  • Dallas, Texas
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  • Name: C. Jessen
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2017, 06:57:18 PM »
Ah the old range war, of the modified and the originals has once again begun.  Gentlemen choose your side.

I'm with Mike!

 ;)
1970 Deville Convertible  MTS 507
Dallas, Texas

Offline 5390john

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2017, 10:03:45 PM »
See my first post, this is the "lively discussion" I was hoping for.
Come on guys, don't be shy, let'er rip and let's see where the dust settles!!
Sounds like unrestored, pristine original cars should be in a separate category, then "restored to like new", then "overrestored" to "modified," "custom" or whatever.............
John Adams

Offline Jim Miller

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  • Name: Jmiller
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2017, 05:23:21 AM »
I see the term survivor, restored, original, etc. When asked I tell people my '41 is "properly maintained". Helps that there is only 58,000 miles and zero rust. Of course the exhaust is newer, tires new, shocks rebuilt, water and fuel pumps rebuilt, pinion seal, brake pads and rubber lines, some paint refresh about 30 years ago. Interior untouched and original very clean carpet. Original car - not quite- the original rubber components get pretty stiff, belts break, exhaust rusts out over the years, shock seals start to leak.  Restored - I'm probably wrong but always considered restored as being dismantled and rebuilt. Survivor - I picture those as having a thin layer of rust on the finish and springs sticking out of the seats.  So I'll continue to use Properly Maintained as a response or until there is a summit and the definitions are codified  :)
Jim Miller
Jim Miller

1941 62 sedan
2016 SRX

Online bcroe

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Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2017, 12:39:14 PM »
I think the line is where the Judge draws it.  Probably he would not notice that
all my locks are converted to my master key system, the trans is converted to
switch pitch (unless he drives it), the extra capacity diesel tank with linearized
gauge, recalibrated speedo, or sway bars that are 1/8" greater dia than stock
with touring springs.  But after that, internal things get more obvious.  Bruce Roe

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2017, 05:23:32 PM »
See my first post, this is the "lively discussion" I was hoping for.
Come on guys, don't be shy, let'er rip and let's see where the dust settles!!
Sounds like unrestored, pristine original cars should be in a separate category, then "restored to like new", then "overrestored" to "modified," "custom" or whatever.............
John Adams

This has been done many times here before. Rarely does it result in anything productive. 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 60
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2017, 08:12:18 PM »
This has been done many times here before. Rarely does it result in anything productive.

You got that right!  I remember when the modifieds first broke onto the scene at sanctioned CLC events.  There was an obvious backlash from the "establishment", with cries of heresy!  With the passage of time, modifieds have grown into acceptance, leading to them having their own chapter.

Online "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2017, 08:15:55 PM »
I personally am waiting, and eventually expect to hear someone say that their car contains the original coolant in the radiator and the original tank of gasoline.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 60
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2017, 08:38:45 PM »
I personally am waiting, and eventually expect to hear someone say that their car contains the original coolant in the radiator and the original tank of gasoline.
Greg Surfas

Not to forget the factory air in the tires.

Offline harry s

  • Harry Scott 4195
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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #30 on: December 06, 2017, 07:20:39 AM »
Don't forget the one with the rear view mirror that has never been looked in.   Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1937 7529
1941 6733
1948 6267X

Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2017, 07:45:39 AM »
I don't really care where the lines are between restored, modified and original.  I tinker with them because I love the work.  I drive them because I love the feeling I get from driving something older than me (and I am plenty old).  I love learning about the subtle complexities that made these cars work so well back in the day (which are often overlooked by most mechanics). I love keeping a 40s or 50s car on the road and letting other folks see it.  But all of that compels me to tweak the car for the modern ownership and operating environment.  I usually add seat belts, three-point ones if I can.  I prefer alternators to generators, electronic ignition over points, dual masters over single masters, stainless exhausts over aluminized steel, radials over bias ply, fat sway bars over skinny ones.  My cars tend to look very original, but usually have some of the above "mods".  So I can never do well at a CLC judged event and I don't mind.  Really, I don't mind.  I love being in the CLC and seeing cars that folks have scrupulously restored to as close to factory as possible.  That is great and is a noble pursuit.  But as for me, I prefer to express my Caddy enthusiasm my own way.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 60
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2017, 08:08:12 AM »
I don't really care where the lines are between restored, modified and original.  I tinker with them because I love the work.  I drive them because I love the feeling I get from driving something older than me (and I am plenty old).  I love learning about the subtle complexities that made these cars work so well back in the day (which are often overlooked by most mechanics). I love keeping a 40s or 50s car on the road and letting other folks see it.  But all of that compels me to tweak the car for the modern ownership and operating environment.  I usually add seat belts, three-point ones if I can.  I prefer alternators to generators, electronic ignition over points, dual masters over single masters, stainless exhausts over aluminized steel, radials over bias ply, fat sway bars over skinny ones.  My cars tend to look very original, but usually have some of the above "mods".  So I can never do well at a CLC judged event and I don't mind.  Really, I don't mind.  I love being in the CLC and seeing cars that folks have scrupulously restored to as close to factory as possible.  That is great and is a noble pursuit.  But as for me, I prefer to express my Caddy enthusiasm my own way.


Well said.

Offline 76eldo

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #33 on: December 06, 2017, 08:52:55 AM »
If you are concerned with CLC judging you could make a few tweaks here and there that would get you more points.

The judging process gives you a score on your car with deductions made for incorrect items, accessories, and finishes based on the best judgements of the judges based on known criteria on your year and model.

If the main goal is to keep the car as original as possible by researching and using the proper finishes, accessories, clamps, ribbed or date coded hoses and available repro or NOS parts and score the most points possible at a CLC GN then you have to make that effort.

If the goal is to make the car as roadworthy as possible and/or make the car suit your needs and tastes then you go in a different direction.  It's your car and your money so you get to make the decisions on how you want the car.

The only time it gets ugly is when people restore or refurbish a car and expect to win awards based on what they think it is without regard to the painstakingly set up process that goes into writing the rules and regulations and judging procedures that the club has established.

I have issues with the deductions for radial tires even though they are repro's with the proper whitewall configuration.  Bias tires are no longer available in all whitewall sizes because radials are more popular but the rules are what they are and I take the deduction because I prefer my 70 Convertible with radials.  But, those are the current standards and I accept the deduction.  We all have to have our cars the way we like them.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
CLC # 22443

I prefer email's not PM's   rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Convertible with factory Tri Power
1960 Eldorado Seville
1970 DeVille Convertible
1970 Eldorado
1976 Eldorado Convertible
1980 Eldorado Hess & Eisenhardt Convertible
1981 Eldorado Hess & Eisenhardt Convertible
1985 Eldorado ASC Biarritz Convertible
2007 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 CT5

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 60
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #34 on: December 06, 2017, 09:10:58 AM »
If you are concerned with CLC judging you could make a few tweaks here and there that would get you more points.

The judging process gives you a score on your car with deductions made for incorrect items, accessories, and finishes based on the best judgements of the judges based on known criteria on your year and model.

If the main goal is to keep the car as original as possible by researching and using the proper finishes, accessories, clamps, ribbed or date coded hoses and available repro or NOS parts and score the most points possible at a CLC GN then you have to make that effort.

If the goal is to make the car as roadworthy as possible and/or make the car suit your needs and tastes then you go in a different direction.  It's your car and your money so you get to make the decisions on how you want the car.

The only time it gets ugly is when people restore or refurbish a car and expect to win awards based on what they think it is without regard to the painstakingly set up process that goes into writing the rules and regulations and judging procedures that the club has established.

I have issues with the deductions for radial tires even though they are repro's with the proper whitewall configuration.  Bias tires are no longer available in all whitewall sizes because radials are more popular but the rules are what they are and I take the deduction because I prefer my 70 Convertible with radials.  But, those are the current standards and I accept the deduction.  We all have to have our cars the way we like them.

Brian

You have very distinctly outlined the basic precept of owning and judging, and which way a individual wants to go.  Judging in the CLC is mostly subjective. 

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #35 on: December 06, 2017, 09:43:56 AM »
Judging in the CLC is mostly subjective.

I think most CLC judges endeavor to score as objectively as possible, and to the best of their abilities.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline Dan LeBlanc

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2017, 11:54:58 AM »
Having owned my 70 for just over a year now, I know where it stands in terms of judging.  I know where my deductions would be should I choose to have the car judged.

I've done the award/judging thing, and it was a good experience with a different car.  Would I do it again with the 70?  No.  Not because it wouldn't pull a prize, because it would pull a prize in a touring category, but because I've already been there and done that.  Now I just want to show up and relax.  Off the show field, an award wouldn't give me any more or any less enjoyment from the car.

I could correct a few things and score even higher, but the major authenticity deviations on my car, I actually like - mainly radial tires and wire wheels that would be enough points deductions to knock me out of primary.  The other stuff is all small that could be fixed in a day, but, to me, it now makes no difference.
Dan LeBlanc - CLC # 27657
1970 DeVille Convertible
1977 Continental Town Car

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 60
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #37 on: December 06, 2017, 02:39:26 PM »
I think most CLC judges endeavor to score as objectively as possible, and to the best of their abilities.

Almost impossible to be objective, when judging.  Everyone has their own personal thoughts on what is correct.  Just look at the different opinions on this thread, as to what "the line is between original and modified."

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #38 on: December 06, 2017, 03:43:30 PM »
Almost impossible to be objective, when judging.  Everyone has their own personal thoughts on what is correct.  Just look at the different opinions on this thread, as to what "the line is between original and modified."

There would be a lot of upset CLC show participants if judging came down to a free-for-all based on "personal thoughts". Many owners put a lot of time, effort and money trying to restore their vehicles to the highest standards of authenticity possible. Others modify their cars to suit their tastes and purposes of functionality and so forth. That is their decision.

In either case, it is the judges' function to evaluate whether the individual items/features of the car correlate to the Authenticity Manual in each of those areas in establishing a final score.

As Brian said, "The only time it gets ugly is when people restore or refurbish a car and expect to win awards based on what they think it is without regard to the painstakingly set up process that goes into writing the rules and regulations and judging procedures that the club has established."
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline e.mason

  • Posts: 60
  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: Where's the line between original and modified?
« Reply #39 on: December 06, 2017, 03:52:26 PM »
There would be a lot of upset CLC show participants if judging came down to a free-for-all based on "personal thoughts". Many owners put a lot of time, effort and money trying to restore their vehicles to the highest standards of authenticity possible. Others modify their cars to suit their tastes and purposes of functionality and so forth. That is their decision.

In either case, it is the judges' function to evaluate whether the individual items/features of the car correlate to the Authenticity Manual in each of those areas in establishing a final score.

As Brian said, "The only time it gets ugly is when people restore or refurbish a car and expect to win awards based on what they think it is without regard to the painstakingly set up process that goes into writing the rules and regulations and judging procedures that the club has established."
 

Everything you posted is all well and good, and right on target.  There is one missing factor.  Human emotion.  Yes there is an Authenticity Manual for the different classes.  Much time and effort has been put into the manuals.  While the CLC has a core group of skilled judges.  But for the most part,judging is done by volunteers.  Each bringing their own personal standards and expertise.  Rarely is there a sanctioned CLC judging event, when the "also rans" will privately or even sometimes publicly grip about the judging.  Why?  Quite simply.  Even though the car is being judged.  Many owners that have put in countless blood sweat and tears, into their prides and joys, take the final judging personal.