News:

Due to a technical issue, some recently uploaded pictures have been lost. We are investigating why this happened but the issue has been resolved so that future uploads should be safe.  You can also Modify your post (MORE...) and re-upload the pictures in your post.

Main Menu

Where's the line between original and modified?

Started by 5390john, November 30, 2017, 09:14:11 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

D.Smith

#20
Quote from: cadillacmike68 on December 04, 2017, 11:53:07 AM
So my stainless steel hose clamps, which, unlike the originals, do not leak and do not rust / corrode, make it "modified"... NOT in my opinion.

Nobody's talking about service replacement parts.   Now if your hose clamps were laminated in bright pink plastic then I guess you'd get a deduction at judging.

Take a vinyl top for example.   Lets say your car came from the factory with a tuxedo grained top.  The restoration shop put on a padded Elk grain top because they just used what was easily available.     Is that modified?   I'd say no.   But It is incorrectly restored and now no longer "Original".       

   




cadillacmike68

Quote from: D.Smith on December 04, 2017, 03:23:59 PM
Nobody's talking about service replacement parts.   Now if your hose clamps were laminated in bright pink plastic then I guess you'd get a deduction at judging.

Take a vinyl top for example.   Lets say your car came from the factory with a tuxedo grained top.  The restoration shop put on a padded Elk grain top because they just used what was easily available.     Is that modified?   I'd say no.   But It is incorrectly restored and now no longer "Original".     

The top isn't original as soon as it is replaced, exact same pattern and color or not.

And yes the hose clamps are a cause for some judges to go apesh!t when they see them.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike

chrisntam

Quote from: e.mason on December 04, 2017, 01:34:01 PM
Ah the old range war, of the modified and the originals has once again begun.  Gentlemen choose your side.

I'm with Mike!

;)
1970 Deville Convertible 
Dallas, Texas

5390john

See my first post, this is the "lively discussion" I was hoping for.
Come on guys, don't be shy, let'er rip and let's see where the dust settles!!
Sounds like unrestored, pristine original cars should be in a separate category, then "restored to like new", then "overrestored" to "modified," "custom" or whatever.............
John Adams
1955 CDV "Marilyn"

"Panic Accordingly"

Jim Miller

I see the term survivor, restored, original, etc. When asked I tell people my '41 is "properly maintained". Helps that there is only 58,000 miles and zero rust. Of course the exhaust is newer, tires new, shocks rebuilt, water and fuel pumps rebuilt, pinion seal, brake pads and rubber lines, some paint refresh about 30 years ago. Interior untouched and original very clean carpet. Original car - not quite- the original rubber components get pretty stiff, belts break, exhaust rusts out over the years, shock seals start to leak.  Restored - I'm probably wrong but always considered restored as being dismantled and rebuilt. Survivor - I picture those as having a thin layer of rust on the finish and springs sticking out of the seats.  So I'll continue to use Properly Maintained as a response or until there is a summit and the definitions are codified  :)
Jim Miller
Jim Miller

1941 6219
1949 6237X
1970 CDV
2021 XT6
Past:
1991 SDV
1999 DeElegence
2006 DTS
2013 XTS
2016 SRX

bcroe

I think the line is where the Judge draws it.  Probably he would not notice that
all my locks are converted to my master key system, the trans is converted to
switch pitch (unless he drives it), the extra capacity diesel tank with linearized
gauge, recalibrated speedo, or sway bars that are 1/8" greater dia than stock
with touring springs.  But after that, internal things get more obvious.  Bruce Roe

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: 5390john on December 04, 2017, 11:03:45 PM
See my first post, this is the "lively discussion" I was hoping for.
Come on guys, don't be shy, let'er rip and let's see where the dust settles!!
Sounds like unrestored, pristine original cars should be in a separate category, then "restored to like new", then "overrestored" to "modified," "custom" or whatever.............
John Adams

This has been done many times here before. Rarely does it result in anything productive. 
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

e.mason

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on December 05, 2017, 06:23:32 PM
This has been done many times here before. Rarely does it result in anything productive.

You got that right!  I remember when the modifieds first broke onto the scene at sanctioned CLC events.  There was an obvious backlash from the "establishment", with cries of heresy!  With the passage of time, modifieds have grown into acceptance, leading to them having their own chapter.
Eric Mason

"Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

I personally am waiting, and eventually expect to hear someone say that their car contains the original coolant in the radiator and the original tank of gasoline.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
Director Modified Chapter CLC
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

e.mason

Quote from: "Cadillac Kid"  Greg Surfas 15364 on December 05, 2017, 09:15:55 PM
I personally am waiting, and eventually expect to hear someone say that their car contains the original coolant in the radiator and the original tank of gasoline.
Greg Surfas

Not to forget the factory air in the tires.
Eric Mason

harry s

Don't forget the one with the rear view mirror that has never been looked in.   Harry
Harry Scott 4195
1941 6733
1948 6267X
2011 DTS Platinum

Caddy Wizard

I don't really care where the lines are between restored, modified and original.  I tinker with them because I love the work.  I drive them because I love the feeling I get from driving something older than me (and I am plenty old).  I love learning about the subtle complexities that made these cars work so well back in the day (which are often overlooked by most mechanics). I love keeping a 40s or 50s car on the road and letting other folks see it.  But all of that compels me to tweak the car for the modern ownership and operating environment.  I usually add seat belts, three-point ones if I can.  I prefer alternators to generators, electronic ignition over points, dual masters over single masters, stainless exhausts over aluminized steel, radials over bias ply, fat sway bars over skinny ones.  My cars tend to look very original, but usually have some of the above "mods".  So I can never do well at a CLC judged event and I don't mind.  Really, I don't mind.  I love being in the CLC and seeing cars that folks have scrupulously restored to as close to factory as possible.  That is great and is a noble pursuit.  But as for me, I prefer to express my Caddy enthusiasm my own way.
Art Gardner


1955 S60 Fleetwood sedan (now under resto -- has been in paint shop since June 2022!)
1955 S62 Coupe (future show car? 2/3 done)
1958 Eldo Seville (2/3 done)

e.mason

Quote from: Art Gardner  CLC 23021 on December 06, 2017, 08:45:39 AM
I don't really care where the lines are between restored, modified and original.  I tinker with them because I love the work.  I drive them because I love the feeling I get from driving something older than me (and I am plenty old).  I love learning about the subtle complexities that made these cars work so well back in the day (which are often overlooked by most mechanics). I love keeping a 40s or 50s car on the road and letting other folks see it.  But all of that compels me to tweak the car for the modern ownership and operating environment.  I usually add seat belts, three-point ones if I can.  I prefer alternators to generators, electronic ignition over points, dual masters over single masters, stainless exhausts over aluminized steel, radials over bias ply, fat sway bars over skinny ones.  My cars tend to look very original, but usually have some of the above "mods".  So I can never do well at a CLC judged event and I don't mind.  Really, I don't mind.  I love being in the CLC and seeing cars that folks have scrupulously restored to as close to factory as possible.  That is great and is a noble pursuit.  But as for me, I prefer to express my Caddy enthusiasm my own way.


Well said.
Eric Mason

76eldo

If you are concerned with CLC judging you could make a few tweaks here and there that would get you more points.

The judging process gives you a score on your car with deductions made for incorrect items, accessories, and finishes based on the best judgements of the judges based on known criteria on your year and model.

If the main goal is to keep the car as original as possible by researching and using the proper finishes, accessories, clamps, ribbed or date coded hoses and available repro or NOS parts and score the most points possible at a CLC GN then you have to make that effort.

If the goal is to make the car as roadworthy as possible and/or make the car suit your needs and tastes then you go in a different direction.  It's your car and your money so you get to make the decisions on how you want the car.

The only time it gets ugly is when people restore or refurbish a car and expect to win awards based on what they think it is without regard to the painstakingly set up process that goes into writing the rules and regulations and judging procedures that the club has established.

I have issues with the deductions for radial tires even though they are repro's with the proper whitewall configuration.  Bias tires are no longer available in all whitewall sizes because radials are more popular but the rules are what they are and I take the deduction because I prefer my 70 Convertible with radials.  But, those are the current standards and I accept the deduction.  We all have to have our cars the way we like them.

Brian
Brian Rachlin
Huntingdon Valley, Pa
I prefer email's not PM's rachlin@comcast.net

1960 62 Series Conv with Factory Tri Power
1970 DeVille Conv
1970 Eldo
1970 Caribu (?) "The Cadmino"
1973 Eldorado Conv Pace Car
1976 Eldorado Conv
1980 Eldorado H & E Conv
1993 Allante with Hardtop (X2)
2008 DTS
2012 CTS Coupe
2017 XT
1956 Thunderbird
1966 Olds Toronado

e.mason

Quote from: 76eldo on December 06, 2017, 09:52:55 AM
If you are concerned with CLC judging you could make a few tweaks here and there that would get you more points.

The judging process gives you a score on your car with deductions made for incorrect items, accessories, and finishes based on the best judgements of the judges based on known criteria on your year and model.

If the main goal is to keep the car as original as possible by researching and using the proper finishes, accessories, clamps, ribbed or date coded hoses and available repro or NOS parts and score the most points possible at a CLC GN then you have to make that effort.

If the goal is to make the car as roadworthy as possible and/or make the car suit your needs and tastes then you go in a different direction.  It's your car and your money so you get to make the decisions on how you want the car.

The only time it gets ugly is when people restore or refurbish a car and expect to win awards based on what they think it is without regard to the painstakingly set up process that goes into writing the rules and regulations and judging procedures that the club has established.

I have issues with the deductions for radial tires even though they are repro's with the proper whitewall configuration.  Bias tires are no longer available in all whitewall sizes because radials are more popular but the rules are what they are and I take the deduction because I prefer my 70 Convertible with radials.  But, those are the current standards and I accept the deduction.  We all have to have our cars the way we like them.

Brian

You have very distinctly outlined the basic precept of owning and judging, and which way a individual wants to go.  Judging in the CLC is mostly subjective. 
Eric Mason

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: e.mason on December 06, 2017, 10:10:58 AM
Judging in the CLC is mostly subjective.

I think most CLC judges endeavor to score as objectively as possible, and to the best of their abilities.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

Dan LeBlanc

Having owned my 70 for just over a year now, I know where it stands in terms of judging.  I know where my deductions would be should I choose to have the car judged.

I've done the award/judging thing, and it was a good experience with a different car.  Would I do it again with the 70?  No.  Not because it wouldn't pull a prize, because it would pull a prize in a touring category, but because I've already been there and done that.  Now I just want to show up and relax.  Off the show field, an award wouldn't give me any more or any less enjoyment from the car.

I could correct a few things and score even higher, but the major authenticity deviations on my car, I actually like - mainly radial tires and wire wheels that would be enough points deductions to knock me out of primary.  The other stuff is all small that could be fixed in a day, but, to me, it now makes no difference.
Dan LeBlanc
1977 Lincoln Continental Town Car

e.mason

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on December 06, 2017, 10:43:56 AM
I think most CLC judges endeavor to score as objectively as possible, and to the best of their abilities.

Almost impossible to be objective, when judging.  Everyone has their own personal thoughts on what is correct.  Just look at the different opinions on this thread, as to what "the line is between original and modified."
Eric Mason

Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

Quote from: e.mason on December 06, 2017, 03:39:26 PM
Almost impossible to be objective, when judging.  Everyone has their own personal thoughts on what is correct.  Just look at the different opinions on this thread, as to what "the line is between original and modified."

There would be a lot of upset CLC show participants if judging came down to a free-for-all based on "personal thoughts". Many owners put a lot of time, effort and money trying to restore their vehicles to the highest standards of authenticity possible. Others modify their cars to suit their tastes and purposes of functionality and so forth. That is their decision.

In either case, it is the judges' function to evaluate whether the individual items/features of the car correlate to the Authenticity Manual in each of those areas in establishing a final score.

As Brian said, "The only time it gets ugly is when people restore or refurbish a car and expect to win awards based on what they think it is without regard to the painstakingly set up process that goes into writing the rules and regulations and judging procedures that the club has established."
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for which there is no Acceptable Substitute

e.mason

Quote from: Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 on December 06, 2017, 04:43:30 PM
There would be a lot of upset CLC show participants if judging came down to a free-for-all based on "personal thoughts". Many owners put a lot of time, effort and money trying to restore their vehicles to the highest standards of authenticity possible. Others modify their cars to suit their tastes and purposes of functionality and so forth. That is their decision.

In either case, it is the judges' function to evaluate whether the individual items/features of the car correlate to the Authenticity Manual in each of those areas in establishing a final score.

As Brian said, "The only time it gets ugly is when people restore or refurbish a car and expect to win awards based on what they think it is without regard to the painstakingly set up process that goes into writing the rules and regulations and judging procedures that the club has established."

Everything you posted is all well and good, and right on target.  There is one missing factor.  Human emotion.  Yes there is an Authenticity Manual for the different classes.  Much time and effort has been put into the manuals.  While the CLC has a core group of skilled judges.  But for the most part,judging is done by volunteers.  Each bringing their own personal standards and expertise.  Rarely is there a sanctioned CLC judging event, when the "also rans" will privately or even sometimes publicly grip about the judging.  Why?  Quite simply.  Even though the car is being judged.  Many owners that have put in countless blood sweat and tears, into their prides and joys, take the final judging personal. 
Eric Mason