Author Topic: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?  (Read 785 times)

Offline tozerco

  • Posts: 467
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #7946
  • Name: John Tozer
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2017, 05:43:49 PM »
I have a Frank Burrel dual carb intake that was proposed for the 346 tank engine but was later adapted  by Frank as a post war hop up accessory.
Iíd love a pair of the tank heads with the Cadillac writing. Anyone in oz got some old tank bits?

The flysheet from the GMH manual....
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Offline tozerco

  • Posts: 467
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #7946
  • Name: John Tozer
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2017, 05:48:55 PM »
I have a Frank Burrel dual carb intake that was proposed for the 346 tank engine but was later adapted  by Frank as a post war hop up accessory.
Iíd love a pair of the tank heads with the Cadillac writing. Anyone in oz got some old tank bits?

Here's a link to an excellent film on M24 tank trials carried out by the Oz Army for the British War Office on Bougainville Island in 1944 or 5:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C190469
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7459
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #18992
  • Name: Bruce Reynolds
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #22 on: December 06, 2017, 06:20:12 PM »
....... "Perrier" Cadillac engine - three (3) 346 flatheads arranged around a common crankcase (see attached photo if it works). Had over 700 hp apparently. 
No wonder the tanks were so heavy.

Did they use Dry Sumping to control the oiling problems with the lower cylinders?

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

  • Posts: 2812
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #15364
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #23 on: December 06, 2017, 06:56:09 PM »
Chrysler did the same thing, taking 5 six cylinder flat heads and tying them together around a single crankshaft for a total of 30 cylinders for a tank motor.  I don't recall what it was used in but it was an advertisement in a wartime edition of time (I think) magazine.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline Steve Passmore

  • Posts: 4971
  • Name: Steve Passmore
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2017, 03:52:17 AM »
[quote author=tozerco link=topic=147735.msg378538#msg378538  One of these tanks, the "Thunderbolt" (there is one in the Oz War Memorial holding centre in Canberra) had what was called a "Perrier" Cadillac engine - three (3) 346 flatheads arranged around a common crankcase (see attached photo if it works). Had over 700 hp apparently.

.
[/quote]

That is a very interesting picture, John. That would seem they used independent crankshafts somehow mated to a forth for the drive all in a shared crankcase. Amazing. I would love to take one of those apart and study it.
Steve

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7459
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #18992
  • Name: Bruce Reynolds
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2017, 05:27:33 AM »
Looks like the three crankshafts are geared together, and run through a completely contained transmission/gearcase, and then the driveshaft passes forwards through trhe guts of all three.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

  • Posts: 2812
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #15364
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2017, 09:32:51 AM »
We are getting far afield with this thread, but I just went and looked up the Chrysler motor I mentioned. apparently it too has separate (5) crank shafts geared together for the mput.  It is kind of interesting that all 5 of the front dampers have starting crank devices on them.
Apparently this as developed in 1941.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline Mike Josephic CLC #3877

  • Posts: 1506
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #3877
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2017, 03:17:34 PM »
Here's a link to an excellent film on M24 tank trials carried out by the Oz Army for the British War Office on Bougainville Island in 1944 or 5:

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/C190469

Tozerco:

Thank you for posting that film!  I watched it and it was really interesting.
I didn't realize that the M24 was such a capable vehicle.  The two Cadillac
engines surely helped.  The torture testing through all the various was quite
impressive!

Thanks again,

Mike
1955 Cadillac Eldorado
1973 Cadillac Eldorado
1995 Cadillac Seville
2004 Escalade
1997 GMC Suburban 4X4, 454 engine, 3/4 ton
custom built by Santa Fe in Evansville, IN
2011 Buick Lucerne CX
-------------------------------------
CLCMRC Museum Benefactor #38
Past: VP International Affiliates, Museum Board Director, President / Director Pittsburgh Region

Offline tozerco

  • Posts: 467
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #7946
  • Name: John Tozer
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2017, 04:37:28 PM »


That is a very interesting picture, John. That would seem they used independent crankshafts somehow mated to a forth for the drive all in a shared crankcase. Amazing. I would love to take one of those apart and study it.
[/quote]

Steve,

There are only two of these tanks still in existence and I believe one of them is in a tank museum in the UK. I might try and find a source for you.....
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Offline tozerco

  • Posts: 467
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #7946
  • Name: John Tozer
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2017, 04:51:12 PM »
Sorry Steve,

The tank in the Bovington Tank Museum is an AC1, not the AC3 "Thunderbolt" so it has the three flatheads arranged in a clover-leaf pattern (similar to the M24 but the M24 has two flatheads) mounted flat on the chassis - two + one. It appears the only AC3 with the Perrier Cadillac is here in Canberra so you'll just have to take advantage of Brexit and all that money you have and come down here to see it!!!!
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Offline tozerco

  • Posts: 467
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #7946
  • Name: John Tozer
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2017, 04:54:27 PM »
....that should have read 400 hp!
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Offline tozerco

  • Posts: 467
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #7946
  • Name: John Tozer
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2017, 04:57:56 PM »

No wonder the tanks were so heavy.


Bruce. >:D
[/quote]

Actually more than 4 tons lighter than a Sherman, Bruce.
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Offline The Tassie Devil(le)

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 7459
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #18992
  • Name: Bruce Reynolds
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2017, 05:03:50 PM »
......  It is kind of interesting that all 5 of the front dampers have starting crank devices on them.......Greg Surfas
Just who in the tank crew would be tasked with cranking the lot if the batteries failed.

Bruce. >:D
'72 Eldorado Convertible (LHD)
'70 Ranchero Squire (RHD)
'74 Chris Craft Gull Wing (SH)
(Past President Modified Chapter)

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

  • Posts: 2812
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #15364
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2017, 05:49:23 PM »
VERY good question.
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline tozerco

  • Posts: 467
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #7946
  • Name: John Tozer
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2017, 01:44:21 AM »
One marinised version....
John Tozer
#7946

'37 7513
'37 7533

Offline Quentin Hall

  • Posts: 1205
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2017, 04:53:30 AM »
Great info John. The mechanic beside my shed is Ray Tozer and he says he has a John Tozer relative that he hasnít met. .??? Iím gonna be coming to Melbourne in the new year to collect some of my stolen 53 Eldo stuff. Maybe we can catch up.
53 Eldo #412.
53 Eldo #433
53 series 62 conv
39 Sixty Special Custom
57 Biarritz

Offline Steve Passmore

  • Posts: 4971
  • Name: Steve Passmore
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2017, 06:16:57 AM »
Just who in the tank crew would be tasked with cranking the lot if the batteries failed.

Bruce. >:D

As each crank has a starting facility it may be that they each can be disconnected by a clutch of some sort at the rear? A man could then wind one up to start and use that like a 'donkey' engine to start the others?? Just guessin.  Makes me want to take one apart even more.
Steve

Offline CEC #20099

  • Posts: 184
  • Name: c. chleboun
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2017, 10:21:00 AM »
Mr Tozer: I have a 39  61 CCP that had a US NAVY 1945 marine engine installed, during restoration, in 1971. The engine was sourced from a Detroit salvage facility, in Cosmoline. It has the red USN tag, wired on. Your picture is the first I have seen, that shows a marine setup. Terry Wenger did the installation, and it is a sweet running engine. There was some extensive machine work involved. I hope Terry gets on the forum & adds to the conversation. It was not a reverse rotation engine, as some tanks used.

C Chleboun # 20099

Offline Terry Wenger

  • Posts: 284
    • CLC Member
      CLC Member #1800
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2017, 04:03:22 PM »
About the military engines:  We bought three in 1971, the navy ones that C. Chleboun describes above. They had the test tags on them from 1945.

When we bought them they were new, but very dirty from storage in crates.
We removed the manifolds, heads and other parts, as these were to be replaced with civilian versions.

These engines did not have the hole in them for the oil fill pipe and we had those bored at a machine shop. The pistons had a chamfer around the top to lower the compression ratio I assume.

All three got civilian heads manifolds, carb, oil pans etc. One went into a '41 60S and I put one into my '39-61 convertible that C. Chleboun has owned for many years. The third engine was installed into a '41 60S in the early seventies which I own now, and is just now being broken in 72 years after its manufacture.

Terry Wenger #1800

In the fifties, Cadillac recommended that these military engines not be installed in passenger cars. I will say that make a nice installation and they sure run nice as they are a new engine.
Terry Wenger CLC #1800
tewv16@sbcglobal.net
1932 355B TSD
1940 60S
1941 60S
1947 6267 Conv.
1949 6207X Coupe
1955 Coupe de Ville
1963 60S
2008 CTS

Offline Steve Passmore

  • Posts: 4971
  • Name: Steve Passmore
Re: Cadillac and WWII - engines used in what?
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2017, 03:26:26 AM »
I agree with you Terry. I have always said I don't think you can match a 'New' engine from the factory. I had 3 military engines here at one time.All grubby from decades of storage. Sold one to a rodder.  I didn't feel so bad about letting that one go as it had already had two rebuilds by the Belgium army. The other two, however, had never been used and to see all that bright new internal metal was a joy. One has been purring sweetly in my car for the last 7 years and the other with all its original tank appendages I reluctantly let go to a man in Spain restoring a Chaffee tank that was missing its engines. Regret it? yes, but it did go to a worthy cause.
Steve