Author Topic: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?  (Read 454 times)

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« on: December 05, 2017, 10:53:53 AM »
This is kind a general inquirery as to whether anyone out there has been in a discussion with Bill Anderson regarding any modifications (pardon the pun) to the judging criteria for "Modified" classes at the GN.
I sent Bill the following suggestions a few months back and was wondering whether any of them had been discussed with any of you.

Modified Class- Judging
Modified Classes
M-1 Hot Rod
Any Cadillac (all years) that has been post factory modified for high performance.  Must have engine, chassis and body manufactured by Cadillac.
M-2 Resto-Mod
Any Cadillac (to 1950?) that has had significant engine (must be Cadillac engine), chassis, suspension, body modifications upgrading it.
M-3 Mild Custom
Any Cadillac (all years) that still has a Cadillac engine (Any year) the original body, suspension and body dimensions that has mild customization such as trim removal, interior upgrades, interior upgrades and custom paint.
M-4 Radical Custom
Any Cadillac (all years) that has a Cadillac engine (modifications allowed) and body.  Body, frame, suspension and interior modifications as well as chrome and paint modifications shall be unlimited.
Rules for modified division cars
Operations
Point deduction for inoperative (installed) equipment.  All vehicles must be “street legal” and have all the legal requirements such as lights, windshield wipers, horn lights and visible licenses as well as all those devices to regulate those systems.  If a device or system is installed and is inoperative a points deduction shall result/.  There is no penalty for optional devices not being installed.
Engine needs to start, idle and run without leaks and undue vibration or noise (from engine and accessories thereto).  All engine devices shall be connected and operational.

Chassis
Modifications to chassis and suspension shall be done in a workman like manner.  All welds to facilitate any and all modifications shall be “clean” and complete.  Any installed air or hydraulic suspension shall be demonstrated to operate (from drivers position) safely and without binding.
Body
This section, dependent upon classification will require some discussion’
Interior
I believe the existing criteria just needs a bit of quantification on each item

Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2017, 08:10:10 PM »
But I'll bet there no senior badge for anything "modified".
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2017, 11:27:56 AM »
Mike, we've only had modified a short time. You need a little time between shows to "Go Senior."
Barry M. Wheeler #2189

1979 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville
2016 Cadillac ATS

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2017, 11:52:59 AM »
Barry,
I do not believe that the inclusion of "Modifieds" oin the judging process was or ever will be to fully integrate them into the well defined and recognized main field.  If so, it would tend to turn the GN into a Hot Rod show which no one wants.
My intention in suggesting the above is to keep the cars all Cadillac and to widen the scope of the shows to the point that perhaps younger enthusiasts will be interested and as we all did pick up the Cadillac "bug".
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2017, 01:04:16 PM »
It already happened at the 2014 Grand National  ;)

CLASS P14: 1950–1953 CADILLAC
1st Dick Birdsall, Lake Worth, Fla.
1953 Cadillac 62 Custom Body

It is now a Senior.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 01:20:13 PM by Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 »
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2017, 01:31:03 PM »
Eric,
What does that mean now for that car?
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2017, 01:39:16 PM »
Under the previous system a first place primary is recorded in the CLC register with assigned a Senior badge number.

Not certain whether it's done the same way now.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 07:28:36 PM »
I'm not sure where to start. IT's one thing to have all period correct parts like hose clamps, fittings, etc and / or faked original like hoses, belts, battery cases, and tires.

But I want a car that I can drive, safely and efficiently here in FL. That means window tint because the sun here will Destroy any car interior without it, and will hurt the interior even if you do have tint. It means radial tires that won't wander or blow on the 125+ deg asphalt here. It means stainless hose clamps that do not leak, dual exhaust (no loud mufflers, just two of them), and stainless braiding on the pressure AC and PS lines (I had a PS line burst way back, and it started a fire!!!). It means a circa 1970 fan and pulley arrangement to eliminate the ridiculous and ineffective AIR pump, It means a modern sound system, even though I kept the original and working system (which is AM only for which there is basically no music on anymore). It meand [painting a couple if things blue in the engine compartment because I like blue better than black, etc., etc....

Add it up and its buku points off for "non-authentic" or "modified" or whatever they want to call it. And I'm not playing that game.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline druby

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 08:27:20 PM »
You will find in due time that a majority of members do not particularly care for modifies in this club. I've been associated with this club for many years and have heard my share of remarks about what people have done to a beautiful automobile. I myself enjoy modifies and stock vehicles and show respect to any owner for what they choose. Careful what you say around others if you have anything negative to say about another's car, you just might not get a very well received reply. This is my 1953 Coupe deVille with several modifications done in good taste.
1949 cadillac 4DR Sedan
1952 Cadillac Convertible
1953 Cadillac Coupe deVille
1958 Cadillac Eldorado Biarritz

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2017, 08:36:26 PM »
Dan, that's nice looking (even though the pic ig a bit grainy). With your # 696, you've been around, and yes, I have heard what's often being said. I don's have any exterior body or trim modifications to my car except the the standup hood mount ornament.

I find this necessary as an "aiming device" from my college years growing up with a 1973 SDV and a 1970 Fleetwood Brougham. I just can't drive one of these without the standup ornament. that's right up there with a T&T wheel. The only inside "mod" is the sound system with the rear speakers in the quarter side panels. But it's enough to give some conniption fits.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline e.mason

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2017, 10:31:28 AM »
Just asking.  Just exactly is the point of judging and members hoping to walk off with awards?  Isn't the purpose of any club to bring together individuals with a common interest?  Is it possible that the judging creates some awkward situations among members?

I think I can understand the dislike of modifieds by purists.  I think its safe to say, that the Cadillac brand, for most of its history, has been in a class by itself.  The Cadillac has offered its owners more then just basic transportation.  I can imagine that some feel as though greatness shouldn't be tampered with.

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2017, 11:27:33 AM »
I think the CLC has done an excellent job of being as welcoming as possible to all Cadillac enthusiasts, both to "purists" and modifiers alike. No Cadillac or LaSalle owner was ever denied participation in any CLC event to my knowledge. Additionally, many CLC Regions take the additional step of inviting owners of non-Cadillacs to participate in Regional-sponsored CLC events. 

The recently formed Modified Class is further evidence of the CLC's commitment to be as inclusive as possible to all Cadillac owners which previously had been done on a "Display Only" basis.





« Last Edit: December 11, 2017, 11:43:16 AM by Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621 »
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline Barry M Wheeler #2189

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2017, 12:28:31 PM »
There is a certain mind-set among collectors of "anything." They simply want to have the "best." (No, HAVE to have the best.) I am amazed at times at the lengths guys (and gals) will go in pursuit of this goal. So, in the late fifties/early sixties when car clubs came into being, this goal setting was pandered to, and here we are today. The CLC started out instead with "peer" judging at our Regional meets.

This is where your "friends" gather round your car and trash it to their hearts content. (And then you got a chance to trash theirs.) In the middle seventies, a friend and I thought that we should "play with the big boys" of the CCCA/AACA, etc, and have full fledged judging. After three multi-regional meets, the CLC Board thought that we had our act together enough to to with the GNs. And with the GNs, we have judging. (Are we having fun yet?) Short history.
Barry M. Wheeler #2189

1979 Cadillac Fleetwood Brougham
1981 Cadillac Seville
1991 Cadillac Seville
2016 Cadillac ATS

Offline e.mason

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2017, 03:09:52 PM »
I think the CLC has done an excellent job of being as welcoming as possible to all Cadillac enthusiasts, both to "purists" and modifiers alike. No Cadillac or LaSalle owner was ever denied participation in any CLC event to my knowledge. Additionally, many CLC Regions take the additional step of inviting owners of non-Cadillacs to participate in Regional-sponsored CLC events. 

The recently formed Modified Class is further evidence of the CLC's commitment to be as inclusive as possible to all Cadillac owners which previously had been done on a "Display Only" basis.

There is no doubt that the CLC has attempted and succeeded as being the Premier Cadillac club for everyone.  Unfortunately there is a difference between the acceptance of modifieds with the CLC and some of the members.

Online Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #14 on: December 11, 2017, 03:37:10 PM »
Unfortunately there is a difference between the acceptance of modifieds with the CLC and some of the members.

Unfortunately there's little the CLC can do about that.
A Cadillac Motorcar is a Possession for Which There is no Acceptable Substitute

Offline "Cadillac Kid" Greg Surfas 15364

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #15 on: December 11, 2017, 05:00:00 PM »
With all due respect guys, the acceptance of modified s at the GN is a faix de comple'.  I was asking for any helpful suggestions or critique on the suggested rules for said modifieds.
Greg Surfas
Cadillac Kid-Greg Surfas
CLC #15364
66 Coupe deVille (now gone to the UK)
72 Eldo Cpe  (now cruising the sands in Quatar)
73 Coupe deVille
75 Coupe deElegance
76 Coupe deVille
79 Coupe de ville with "Paris" (pick up) option and 472 motor
514 inch motor now in '73-

Offline Dan LeBlanc

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #16 on: December 11, 2017, 08:30:56 PM »
There is only one constant in life and that is change. If the club wants to survive beyond the time when we are all taking the big old Route 66 in the sky, it has to change with the times. Survival of the fittest. While many long for the days of old, they are that. Yes, I'm pushing 40. Yes I like my cars the way they left the factory (for the most part), but to exclude a demographic of predominantly younger members who have differing tastes (note I say predominantly younger - they're not all young) from the club would be the death of a thousand tiny cuts for the club. While some may not agree with their taste, it doesn't mean they cannot be valuable, contributing members of the club who could potentially help it live long after we are all gone.

Anyone can restore a car to factory condition. I've often said it is easier to remove, recondition, and reinstall a part, but to reinvent and transform something takes a skill level far beyond my pay grade. These people WANT to join our club. They WANT to participate. Why on earth would we turn these people away? I've found many people who fall into that category to be very helpful and respectful.  They don't turn up their noses to the purists like the purists do to them.  So, what's wrong with having good people in the club?  Is the club about the people or the cars?
Dan LeBlanc - CLC # 27657
1970 DeVille Convertible
1977 Continental Town Car

Offline cadillacmike68

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2017, 08:36:39 AM »
....  Yes I like my cars the way they left the factory (for the most part), ...

That pretty much describes me, but any deviation from "the factory" gets you hammered.
Regards,
"Cadillac" Mike
Current:
1968 DeVille Convertible
1996 Fleetwood Brougham
2009 STS NorthStar Platinum ed RWD
2011 CTS PRemiun ed Sedan RWD
Past:
2008 CTS Premium ed Sedan AWD
2005 CTS Hi-Feature Sedan RWD
2000 ElDorado ESC Hard Boot Convertible
1995 Fleetwood Brougham
1973 Sedan DeVille
1970 Fleetwood Brougham
1969 DeVille Convertible

Offline e.mason

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  • Name: Eric Mason
Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2017, 10:36:15 AM »
Anyone can restore a car to factory condition. I've often said it is easier to remove, recondition, and reinstall a part, but to reinvent and transform something takes a skill level far beyond my pay grade. These people WANT to join our club. They WANT to participate. Why on earth would we turn these people away? I've found many people who fall into that category to be very helpful and respectful.  They don't turn up their noses to the purists like the purists do to them.  So, what's wrong with having good people in the club?  Is the club about the people or the cars?

Mind stimulating reply.

-Anyone can restore a car to factory condition?  Mostly true, IF you can find the parts and afford the prices.

-Reinvent and transform and the skill involved?  At what point does the reinvention and transformation, make the original masterpiece unrecognizable?   Skill?  How much skill does it take to look through a J.C. Whitney catalog, see something you like i.e. a horse hood ornament, and think how nice that would look on my Eldo.

What would be the common ground where the purists and modifieds can live in peace and harmony?

Just for clarification.  I am on the fence, as I able to appreciate both.  What I enjoy the most is being able to see "completely" unrestored Cadillacs.  I like seeing a example that is still road worthy and safe, and has very minimal restoration.

Offline Dan LeBlanc

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Re: GN Modified class judging criteria-Any Update?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2017, 11:34:12 AM »

Skill?  How much skill does it take to look through a J.C. Whitney catalog, see something you like i.e. a horse hood ornament, and think how nice that would look on my Eldo.


Anybody can do that.  What I was referring to is the likes of Geoff Newcombe's "Big Red."  1935 Cadillac with, hope I get this right, a 472, wire wheels, air conditioning, candy apple red paint, and it gets driven . . . a lot.  The skill involved to do that is much more than removing and old piece and refitting a NOS piece to the car in its place.  Just the fabrication alone required to pull it off requires a very special skill set. 

What's the bigger crime?  Letting it rot away somewhere in a barn or field, or, doing something with it and appreciating it as what it was transformed into.

I've seen Geoff's car, and it is very tastefully done, and not hard on the eyes either.
Dan LeBlanc - CLC # 27657
1970 DeVille Convertible
1977 Continental Town Car

 

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