Standard of the World, Part 2. After 1979?

[wrench]

Nail hit on head - a friend went through exactly this issue with his (mid-90s) "dream car" SL500. To call it a nightmare would be an understatement.

I was looking at the SL600 from late 90's early 2000's and found out about the wiring issue. What was worse, there was no way to tell the old harnesses from the new replacement harnesses by looking at them. so unless you had the service record for that particular wire harness replacement, you were shooting the dice in a losing game. Some of the cars i looked at were like that, no written record, so the assumption had to be 'no dice'...

I know this is a Cadillac board and talking about Brand M, may be close to the edge, but i think any comparo of Cadillac and MB should include the warts on both sides of the subject...

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

This discussion has really influenced me to consider buying a 77-79 Fleetwood or a 92 Brougham D’Elegance. I like the exterior styling,  but I love the interiors even more. I truly believe that Cadillac Broughams of the late 70’s into the 80’s have one of the most attractive interiors Cadillac has made. All the chrome trim, nice little detailed crest and emblems and wood grain that are on the door panels and dash really give the interior class and beautiful style. I love the softly padded door panels and the seats. Sure they’re not the biggest Caddies nor the best performers, but they really made you feel like you were driving a Caddy.

I just sold my 94 Caddy Fleetwood yesterday, as much as I loved driving that car, I could never warm up to the super bland interior. Nothing compared to the 92 on down Broughams especially the D’Elegance which had one of the best seats of any car ever made. The quality slipped heavily I’ve noticed with my 94, everything from the body panel gaps, to the sheet metal thickness, to the chrome panels are all cheap feeling  vs the earlier Cadillacs that felt a lot better put together.

At least the 92 Brougham still has chrome metal door handles, still had the nice stainless chrome trimmings around the door glass and windshield. The doors felt more solid, the seats were way more comfortable. The leather quality was higher too and much more detailed with the button tuff D’Elegance seat cushions. My 94 Fleetwood Bro seats always felt too firm for my liking.

The grill is more attractive, including the rear end. Just an overall better looking, better put together Cadillac that looked nothing a Chevy or Buick. I would say GM was at its worst when it came to sharing the parts bin with Cadillac, Chev and Buick starting in 93 when they shared interior, exterior and its underpinnings with the D and B bodies.

All the doors look similar even the shape of the windshield, and quality of plastics went way down the drain.

In some respects I’m glad the car is gone. It was my daily for years but I honestly don’t think it ever was a “real” Cadillac in my book

These comments & observations on all points are spot on as far as I'm concerned.

[Big Apple Caddy]

In the case of Mercedes Benz, many owners will grudgingly confess that brand's prestige/quality has also diminished considerably over the last 15 years or so.

That's what can happen with price cuts and notably lowering the cost of entry like Mercedes-Benz has done.

25 years ago, the entry price of an SL-Class roadster (1993 Mercedes-Benz 300SL) was $85,000 which is around $148,000 after adjusting for inflation.  Today, a 2018 Mercedes-Benz SL450 starts at just $89,195.

The entry price of an S-Class sedan (1993 Mercedes-Benz 300SD) was $70,300 which is around $122,000 after adjusting for inflation.  Today, a 2018 Mercedes-Benz S450 starts at just $90,895.

The entry starting price of an E-Class sedan (1993 Mercedes-Benz 300E 2,8) was $44,200 which is around $77,000 after adjusting for inflation.  Today, a 2018 Mercedes-Benz E300 starts at just $53,945.

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

That's what can happen with price cuts and notably lowering the cost of entry like Mercedes-Benz has done.

25 years ago, the entry price of an SL-Class roadster (1993 Mercedes-Benz 300SL) was $85,000 which is around $148,000 after adjusting for inflation.  Today, a 2018 Mercedes-Benz SL450 starts at just $89,195.

The entry price of an S-Class sedan (1993 Mercedes-Benz 300SD) was $70,300 which is around $122,000 after adjusting for inflation.  Today, a 2018 Mercedes-Benz S450 starts at just $90,895.

The entry starting price of an E-Class sedan (1993 Mercedes-Benz 300E 2,8) was $44,200 which is around $77,000 after adjusting for inflation.  Today, a 2018 Mercedes-Benz E300 starts at just $53,945.

Indeed. Lexus really laid a hurting on MB in the '90s. Nothing left to do than to cut corners - once unthinkable for the proud German auto maker. I once got to drive a brand new 1994 600SEL V12 owned by  the father of a friend. In terms of performance, it was beyond words - well for $120K in 1994, it had better be! 

Unfortunately the car was plagued with electrical issues almost from the start. After the warranty expired, this man racked up repairs - literally in the 10s of thousands of dollars with less than 50,000 miles on the clock when he passed away in 2011.

It was still in mint condition, black on grey leather. The car was offered to me by the Estate for $12,000 but I didn't want to get involved with it. I think they ultimately got $10,000 for it.

Today it's probably worth no more. A far cry from high 20 thousands for the 1980 Coupe deVille I posted above - especially considering the 600SEL's original list price. So you see, what excites the adrenaline in the old car hobby has little to do with engineering and technological prowess & advancement, which will always become outmoded tomorrow.  It is a game that is unwinnable.

When you invest in a classic Cadillac, you walk away from that game.

[BJM]

Nope, not buying the over the top Cadillac love. And it was just Valentines Day.  I had no issues with my 1992 V12 600 S Class.  I sold it to a 1990's era S Class collector who looked very close at the wiring and had no issue with it. Probably replaced.  He said as the 1990's went on, Mercedes corrected that issue and that is why he purchased 1996's. 

My 2000 S500 - had an extensive repair history - mostly dealer maintenance - but cost me zero.  Mercedes cost money to maintain BUT - I have heard horror stories about the Northstar. In fact, when I asked for mechanical issues knowledge on the last gen Sevilles I got apples and oranges - some said great, others were like OMG!  I have heard antecdotally that to replace a starter or chase an oil leak on a Northstar you might as well bend over at the dealer! 

Luxury cars with these features and expectations cost $$. 

My 1995 SL500 puked it's hydraulic operation of the convertible top. (Keep in mind that Cadillac did not even offer a convertible in 1995)  I took it to the dealer who quoted me $8000 to repair a $5000 car because "they did not really want to do the repair." (Nightmare)   So I hand cranked the top up and down, and it had a hardtop.

So, there are 2 sides to every coin.  I have considered getting a nice Lexus LS400 or LS430 and looked at an LS400 with a bad instrument cluster - a known issue with Lexus.  But yes, I agree that Lexus rewrote the market and caused headaches to Mercedes, BMW and Cadillac. 

It's not a sin to go downmarket like Mercedes did.  Cadillac did, with bad results, but I applaud the effort.  the difference between Cadillac and Mercedes was badge engineering.  Mercedes were clean sheet new platform roll outs in a fairly new market segment.  I owned a 1972 Mercedes 250C.  This was no different than a modern C class, Mercedes has had them for years. 

In the last 10-12 years Mercedes has decided to focus on this market, C and E Class.  Few people can afford a new S Class, even yuppies and status seekers.  I would have NO PROBLEM buying a used C Class for my daughter.  Or an equivalent Lexus.  But what do I buy her for a small Cadillac?   That isn't a badge engineered Buick or Chevrolet? 

[Eric DeVirgilis CLC# 8621]

Not sure where any of this is going. There are some who will only have a Cadillac. Others would only have a Mercedes, BMW etc etc which is their prerogative.

The bottom line this is a Cadillac enthusiast forum. Most here would probably prefer a Cadillac to the alternative. While I can appreciate certain aspects of other makes, the finished product does nothing for me.

De gustibus non est disputandem.

[jdemerson]

Not sure where any of this is going. There are some who will only have a Cadillac. Others would only have a Mercedes, BMW etc etc which is their prerogative.

Perhaps the 'take-aways' form this thread and its predecessor are these:

• Cadillac was the Standard of the World at least through 1970, and most likely through 1979 or 1980.
• After that, there were some outstanding individual Cadillac models, for example: 1990-92 Brougham, 1992 Seville, some of the last generation of Eldorado (1992-2002), and more. But overall the Cadillac make was no longer the Standard of the World.
• In the 1980s and 1990s, there were some excellent individual models from other makes. Some Mercedes Benz S-Class and E-Class models would likely be included included. But no make replaced Cadillac as The Standard of the World.

FWIW, I have a feeling there's some basic truth in these observations quite aside from this being a Cadillac Forum. But Eric DeVirgilis is right that this IS a Cadillac Forum, and we are not about insulting other makes and their owners. I can personally think of a number of specific models of Cadillac, Mercedes Benz, and BMW , any of which I'd LOVE to own. I'll draw the line at 1993 -- 25 years old or older.  Cheers!

John Emerson
1992 Cadillac Sedan 6219X

[The Tassie Devil(le)]

Thanks fellas,

Lets keep this a Cadillac & LaSalle site, as that is what the heading is all about.

Would I love a MB?   Well, not really, as I cannot afford to service one.

I once did a RHD conversion on one, and boy, they also rust in the most horrible of places.

Bruce.

[64\/54Cadillacking]

Even if a 80’s Benz was higher quality and built better or a Lexus was more reliable and built better than a certain year Caddy, they look terrible next to a Fleetwood or Brougham.

Id still rather roll in a old school stylish Caddy with all the comfort and its butter smooth ride over a firm stiff riding Benzo with ho hum styling.