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Flat head valve lifters (again)

Started by bpowell, December 10, 2017, 12:34:40 PM

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bpowell

I did a search for this, but couldn't find what I needed-maybe some one can help.

I am rebuilding a 37 LaSalle engine I bought without the car.  Block in great shape, but no lifters.

I bought a set of lifters and brackets on EBay, and a set was in the engine I am replacing (1947 engine).

They are all the same type lifter, but I find that the actual lifter part-not the tappet-are different lengths between the two sets.

I would like to mix and match, since I can't keep the the tappets on the same cam lobe anyway.

Should the lifter part be about level with the tappet body?  Some were that way, but others stuck out about an eighth, and appear to have been running that way.

Maybe a new set? any experience with those?

Billp


Bobby B

Bill,
In all honesty, I would try to get some form of a matched set. It's not an easy job and you don't want to do it twice. You better check your heights for consistency, as there seems to be some issues with some of the lifters that are out there. Better make sure you have your 3" clearance between the cam lobe heel and your valve stem before you bother going any further. Once the lifters are in, you better check to make sure everything is operating properly and not binding or holding the valves open. Be careful and double check everything BEFORE any damage gets done. One of our Flathead friends just went through this and it wasn't good.
                                                                                  Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

bpowell

All the valves are set at 3in. +- .005 or so.  This isn't my first flathead, but the cam and lifters were all good in the others.

I thought all the lifters prior to late 48 were the same. I have com to find out that they aren't, different length plungers that went with different internal length tappets.  There is some information on the Falcon parts guys site about this, but not very clear.

I'm going to call Terril's tomorrow and see if he can shed some light on this for me

Thanks,

Billp

Bobby B

Quote from: bpowell on December 10, 2017, 02:37:06 PM
I thought all the lifters prior to late 48 were the same.

There's 2 different styles. They obviously do the same thing, but if it were me, I wouldn't mix and match them as far as the body style goes.
                                                                                                                                                                                      Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

z3skybolt

#4
I bought a new set of lifters and bodies from Terrill recently and was informed that all lifters are the same from 1941 thru 47....but that they should fit my 1940 engine perfectly.

My mechanic put the new ones in  my 1940 engine without adjusting valve stem length as had been fitted for the 1940 lifters that were in the engine.

They ended crammed in so tight that the valves would not close. None the less he tried to start the engine after the installation.  Of course there was no compression.  The new lifers were removed.  12 of the 16 lifter bodies had scoring from the attempted start. Now I am concerned about cam damage. 

Be very careful with the process. It has cost me a bundle and I still don't have a proper running engine.  I am including a picture for comparison of the new bodies after they were remove.  Four were not worn.


1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Bobby B

He's the two different style lifters that were used on 346 Flathead engines in case anybody needs a picture to justify this. I have taken a few  Flatheads apart and have seen both styles used..... :: ;)
                                                          Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

z3skybolt

Here is one of the new lifters from Terrill which were removed. My mechanic claimed that they are .080 taller. I cannot confirm that. They appear to the naked eyed to be identical to the old ones removed.

Feltz told me that he has sold "gazillions" of them with no problems.  I cannot return them, due to scoring and may be willing to sell at a big discount....after the first of the year. Lifters and bodies were $800.00.
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Bobby B

Bob,
  If you have a caliper or micrometer, do me a favor and measure yours, and I'll measure mine. :o  Then we can compare to see if there's something going on there. Thanks,
                          Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

z3skybolt

bobby,

I don't have such.  But I will be going to our local airport later in the week.  Am sure one of my buddies has the instrument.  Will let you know.

Is the lifter body what we need to measure, the plunger or combination?

bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Bobby B

Quote from: z3skybolt on December 10, 2017, 11:59:47 PM
Bobby,
Is the lifter body what we need to measure, the plunger or combination?

Bob,
Hi. Measure overall and then the body itself, so we can do some comparisons to the "New" ones.
                                                                                                                                  Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Steve Passmore

I think there were actually 3 different types of lifters in the 48 engine. I remember Hilmar in Germany getting into this in a big way and he found 2 types of that later 48 style. I think maybe they were doing final adjustments to the lifters that would carry on through the overhead engine and trying them out in the flatheads.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Bobby B

Quote from: Steve Passmore on December 11, 2017, 08:25:42 AM
I think there were actually 3 different types of lifters in the 48 engine. I remember Hilmar in Germany getting into this in a big way and he found 2 types of that later 48 style. I think maybe they were doing final adjustments to the lifters that would carry on through the overhead engine and trying them out in the flatheads.

Steve,
Do you have a picture of the ever elusive mysterious 3rd?  ???
                                                 Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

Steve Passmore

Quote from: Bobby B on December 11, 2017, 09:30:36 AM
Steve,
Do you have a picture of the ever elusive mysterious 3rd?  ???
                                                 Bobby

I used to have years ago but can't find it now.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

Brad Ipsen CLC #737

See attached article from the March 1944 pg 8 issue of "The Cadillac Serviceman".  It describe the change from 40 to 41 in the lifters.  You can swap up and down as long as you use the entire assembly.  In other words both the follower and the lifter.  The issue in 48 is completely different where they started using a different style completely that is similar to the 49 OHV lifters.
Brad Ipsen
1940 Cadillac 60S
1938 Cadillac 9039
1940 Cadillac 6267
1940 LaSalle 5227
1949 Cadillac 6237X
1940 Cadillac 60S Limo

Steve Passmore

To back up Brads article Hilmar came through with the pictures he sent me years ago showing the differences.  As stated complete assemblies need to be used if changing out any of these. Two differences in the later ones and note the three differences in the earlier one. One should never interchange these plunger parts under any circumstances.
Steve

Present
1937 60 convertible coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe
1941 62 coupe

Previous
1936 70 Sport coupe
1937 85 series V12 sedan
1938 60 coupe
1938 50 coupe
1939 60S
1940 62 coupe
1941 62 convertible coupe x2
1941 61 coupe
1941 61 sedan x2
1941 62 sedan x2
1947 62 sedan
1959 62 coupe

z3skybolt

Bobby B.

They say if one wants to know what time it is.....check three watches.  So we used a digital caliper to measure three of the new lifter bodies from Terrill.

They measured:
2.591
2.591
and
2.598

We measured two with two different plungers in separate bodies.
They measured:
3.176
3.161

The plungers were dry but there may have remained more or less compression.

Anxious to see what you come up with.

Bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

Bobby B

Quote from: z3skybolt on December 12, 2017, 05:03:21 PM
Bobby B.

They say if one wants to know what time it is.....check three watches.  So we used a digital caliper to measure three of the new lifter bodies from Terrill.

They measured:
2.591
2.591
and
2.598

We measured two with two different plungers in separate bodies.
They measured:
3.176
3.161

The plungers were dry but there may have remained more or less compression.

Anxious to see what you come up with.

Bob

Bob,
Hi. I get the following from a full set:

Lifter Body        2.603"- 2.606 "

Lifter overall      3.045- 3.060"

                                       Bobby
1947 Cadillac Series 62 Convertible Coupe
1968 Mustang Convertible
1973 Mustang Convertible
1969 Jaguar E-Type Roadster
1971 Datsun 240Z
1979 H-D FLH

z3skybolt

So the bodies are basically the same height.  But...once the plungers are installed the new ones from Terrill are .100 to .130 taller.  No wonder they wouldn't fit.

Something is amiss.

Bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.

bpowell

There is a step inside the bodies that the lifter plunger rests on. They are different depths depending on the plunger used with them. It seems from what I have determined, the later ones have shorter plungers and the step in approx. .915 down from the top of the body. On the earlier ones the step is approx. 1.150 down in the body. The ones Terril has are the later size. Need to keep the early and late together and it should be good.
The overall length should be about 3.060-070, so that when installed the lifter plunger would be about in the middle of its travel.

Bill p

z3skybolt

#19
Makes sense Bill,

However my measurement are later with later and old with old?  So I don't know what is going on....except that my new "set" are much taller.

Or are you saying new plungers with old bodies or new bodies with old plungers...which defeats the purpose?
Perhaps I am confused.

Let me know how it works out for you.

Bob
1940 LaSalle 5227 Coupe(purchased May 2016)
1985 Lincoln Town Car Signature Series. Bought New.